Food for thought.

[anonymous person]

You might have missed it... but you are not alone in this - or other threads.

So God is the creator of everything. Not only you, through whom he speaks, in order to affect other individuals... but also me, through whom he speaks, in order to affect other individuals.

We both are God's voice, talking to ourselves. Weird, huh?

Indeed, you are a vessel of blessing to others, despite the fact you do not see it that way. God spoke to the prophet Balaam through a donkey, restraining the prophet's madness, thereby causing Balaam to bless Israel instead of curse it. Anytime you give an encouraging word to another, anytime you bless another, anytime you do any of these things, you are, as an Image Bearer of God, acting in accordance with that which he has put within you, though it be tainted by the noetic effects of sin, some part remains.

 

[Chriliman]

You might have missed it... but you are not alone in this - or other threads.

So God is the creator of everything. Not only you, through whom he speaks, in order to affect other individuals... but also me, through whom he speaks, in order to affect other individuals.

We both are God's voice, talking to ourselves. Weird, huh?

Romans 2:14
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law."

I have no doubt that you are a moral person, not willing to do obvious bad things like kill or steal, but you are willing to do things that God hates just as much as killing and stealing. I don't know what those things are for you personally, but I have a feeling you might know because you might feel some guilt for doing it. I'm not interested in getting into your personal life, unless for some reason you want to in a personal conversation, but I thought I'd just point out that everyone does things that they're ashamed of, but not everyone has a way to free themselves from that shame especially if the shameful thing continues uncontrollably.

God knows who His children are, even though His children may not yet know they belong to Him.

 

[Freodin]

Indeed, you are a vessel of blessing to others, despite the fact you do not see it that way. God spoke to the prophet Balaam through a donkey, restraining the prophet's madness, thereby causing Balaam to bless Israel instead of curse it.

I'm not really sure if I should be pleased that you compared me to the voice of God, or insulted because you compared me to a donkey.

Anytime you give an encouraging word to another, anytime you bless another, anytime you do any of these things, you are, as an Image Bearer of God, acting in accordance with that which he has put within you, though it be tainted by the noetic effects of sin, some part remains.

Nice catch-22 you present there. But in the same way that Chriliman ignored the other participants in these discussions, you ignored all the times I don't do all you mentioned.

 

[Freodin]

Romans 2:14
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law."

I have no doubt that you are a moral person, not willing to do obvious bad things like kill or steal, but you are willing to do things that God hates just as much as killing and stealing. I don't know what those things are for you personally, but I have a feeling you might know because you might feel some guilt for doing it. I'm not interested in getting into your personal life, unless for some reason you want to in a personal conversation, but I thought I'd just point out that everyone does things that they're ashamed of, but not everyone has a way to free themselves from that shame especially if the shameful thing continues uncontrollably.

God knows who His children are, even though His children may not yet know they belong to Him.

But God is the creator of everything. He is the reason behind me doing the things he hates.

Are you sure you don't want to think this over?

 

[Chriliman]

But God is the creator of everything. He is the reason behind me doing the things he hates.

Are you sure you don't want to think this over?

Had God not created anything then there would be no evil, but you and I would not exist either. God's creation has allowed evil to exist (pure evil is the absence of pure good), but this does not mean God can do evil, but He views evil has a means to make His creation purely good. In essence, it's still a work in progress and I want to be on the right side of the end product. I want to be pure good and not pure evil and God has provided a way for me through Jesus Christ.

In the end there will be a pure good eternal state(with God) and a pure evil eternal state(apart from God).

 

[Freodin]

Had God not created anything then there would be no evil, but you and I would not exist either. God's creation has allowed evil to exist (pure evil is the absence of pure good), but this does not mean God can do evil, but He views evil has a means to make His creation purely good. In essence, it's still a work in progress and I want to be on the right side of the end product. I want to be pure good and not pure evil and God has provided a way for me through Jesus Christ.

In the end there will be a pure good eternal state(with God) and a pure evil eternal state(apart from God).

Sorry, that does not compute.
Had God not created anything, then there would be him (In our last conversation, you explained that you think creation from nothing is false - God created from himself.)
God can do no evil, so what he creates must be good.
This good creation "allows" evil to exist... but where did evil come from? Evil is the "absence of good"... but everything created is good. An absence of good would mean a state that exists without being created. But all that exists without creation is God.

I could even understand if you asserted that the creation of evil is good... a little irrational, but at least technically correct.

But under your reasoning, there is no way an absence of good can even exist.

See... that is one of those weird theological consequences I mentioned earlier.

 

[anonymous person]

I'm not really sure if I should be pleased that you compared me to the voice of God, or insulted because you compared me to a donkey.

Ok.

 

[Chriliman]

Sorry, that does not compute.
Had God not created anything, then there would be him (In our last conversation, you explained that you think creation from nothing is false - God created from himself.)
God can do no evil, so what he creates must be good.
This good creation "allows" evil to exist... but where did evil come from? Evil is the "absence of good"... but everything created is good. An absence of good would mean a state that exists without being created. But all that exists without creation is God.

I could even understand if you asserted that the creation of evil is good... a little irrational, but at least technically correct.

But under your reasoning, there is no way an absence of good can even exist.

See... that is one of those weird theological consequences I mentioned earlier.

God does view evil as good, in that it furthers his plan for a perfect creation. Make no mistake, evil itself is not good.

When you have an eternal perfect will that creates perfect finite free willed beings, those finite free willed beings are free to do as they please and some are pleased to do evil and not follow God(who is pure good)

Expect the answer to life to be complex, but also understandable.

 

[quatona]

God does view evil as good

That explains it all.

 

[Freodin]

God does view evil as good, in that it furthers his plan for a perfect creation. Make no mistake, evil itself is not good.

Err... I have just shown you that, under the system you present, there can be no evil. So what are you talking about?

When you have an eternal perfect will that creates perfect finite free willed beings, those finite free willed beings are free to do as they please and some are pleased to do evil and not follow God(who is pure good)

So, these finite free willed beings are the reason behind evil? How do they manage it?
Another of these concepts that you claimed to believe in is that it is impossible for something that existed to not-exist.
But if evil is the absence of good, the only way for these finite free willed beings to cause good to not-exist.

Expect the answer to life to be complex, but also understandable.

Oh, I do expect the answers to life to be complex... potentially understandable... but most likely not comming from you.

No offense meant.

 

[Freodin]

That explains it all.

It is not often that something makes me literally roll on the floor laughing... but you just managed it!

 

[quatona]

When you have an eternal perfect will that creates perfect finite free willed beings, those finite free willed beings are free to do as they please and some are pleased to do evil and not follow God(who is pure good)

Short question: Is there "free will" in heaven?

 

[Chriliman]

Err... I have just shown you that, under the system you present, there can be no evil. So what are you talking about?

If we assume God is pure goodness then in order for God to create perfect finite beings with free will, He must set before them the option to choose His goodness or not. <the "not" here is evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15
"See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction."

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The reason God does these things is to determine who wants pure goodness and who wants pure evil. I understand you don't even believe in God, so these concepts are difficult for you to understand and believe at this point, but someday you may understand and believe.

So, these finite free willed beings are the reason behind evil? How do they manage it?
Another of these concepts that you claimed to believe in is that it is impossible for something that existed to not-exist.
But if evil is the absence of good, the only way for these finite free willed beings to cause good to not-exist.

The finite beings are the reason God puts good and evil in front of them in order that they might choose what is right over what is wrong. This is how God avoids controlling free will. Instead, if a free willed being only wants evil, then that's what they'll get.

Oh, I do expect the answers to life to be complex... potentially understandable... but most likely not comming from you.

No offense meant.

No offense taken. Search out the answers freely, just don't be afraid to go deep into your personal life to find the answers. After all you're personal life is as much a part of this existence as science is, who's to say the answers can't be found there instead of found by science?

 

[Freodin]

If we assume God is pure goodness then in order for God to create perfect finite beings with free will, He must set before them the option to choose His goodness or not. <the "not" here is evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15
"See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction."

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The reason God does these things is to determine who wants pure goodness and who wants pure evil. I understand you don't even believe in God, so these concepts are difficult for you to understand and believe at this point, but someday you may understand and believe.



The finite beings are the reason God puts good and evil in front of them in order that they might choose what is right over what is wrong. This is how God avoids controlling free will. Instead, if a free willed being only wants evil, then that's what they'll get.

All that only makes sense if you assume a prior - and definitely distinct - existence of good and evil. That is basically what the verses you quoted state: that prior statement of "evil is the absence of good" is just one of these modern catch phrases to absolve God from the responsibility of creating real and existing evil.

And that is the problem that I am aiming at: using your own statements about what you believe, such an "evil" is impossible to exist. Your version of God basically creates something and then either arbitrarily decides to distinguish it into "good" and "lacking good"... or is intentionally and free-willingly choosing both "good" and "evil".

Or, last option, his creation is able to "be the reason behind" something that is existent and God is not "the reason behind it".

No offense taken. Search out the answers freely, just don't be afraid to go deep into your personal life to find the answers. After all you're personal life is as much a part of this existence as science is, who's to say the answers can't be found there instead of found by science?

That implies that I would find your kind of answers, if I just were to "go deep into my personal life"... but may somehow be too afraid to do so. I have to say that I find that a little offensive.

 

[Davian]

God does view evil as good

Unless you don't believe, then you are evil. But then that is not your fault because you can't consciously choose what you believe, but you will be held accountable for not believing, otherwise thousands of years of theology will be based on a faulty premise. Is this accurate?

 

[anonymous person]

Unless you don't believe, then you are evil. But then that is not your fault because you can't consciously choose what you believe, but you will be held accountable for not believing, otherwise thousands of years of theology will be based on a faulty premise. Is this accurate?

We stand on what the Bible says and it says we have to make a choice when it comes to Jesus. That's about all I can say.

 

[jenny1972]

Sorry, that does not compute.
Had God not created anything, then there would be him (In our last conversation, you explained that you think creation from nothing is false - God created from himself.)
God can do no evil, so what he creates must be good.
This good creation "allows" evil to exist... but where did evil come from? Evil is the "absence of good"... but everything created is good. An absence of good would mean a state that exists without being created. But all that exists without creation is God.

I could even understand if you asserted that the creation of evil is good... a little irrational, but at least technically correct.

But under your reasoning, there is no way an absence of good can even exist.

See... that is one of those weird theological consequences I mentioned earlier.

the concepts of good and bad are human interpretations . what one human considers good another human might consider bad its a subjective interpretation . darkness and light exist but our subjective opinions about darkness and light attributing one as "good" and the other as "bad" is a human construct .

 

[Chriliman]

All that only makes sense if you assume a prior - and definitely distinct - existence of good and evil. That is basically what the verses you quoted state: that prior statement of "evil is the absence of good" is just one of these modern catch phrases to absolve God from the responsibility of creating real and existing evil.

And that is the problem that I am aiming at: using your own statements about what you believe, such an "evil" is impossible to exist. Your version of God basically creates something and then either arbitrarily decides to distinguish it into "good" and "lacking good"... or is intentionally and free-willingly choosing both "good" and "evil".

Or, last option, his creation is able to "be the reason behind" something that is existent and God is not "the reason behind it".


That implies that I would find your kind of answers, if I just were to "go deep into my personal life"... but may somehow be too afraid to do so. I have to say that I find that a little offensive.

If we assume God is the eternal foundation of all existence then God is an infinite duplicate of himself. In other words there can be no other eternal foundation and he can't duplicate himself more than infinitely. All he can do is create lesser things than himself. This lesser state of creation is where evil is possible. Evil is not possible with God because he's the eternal foundation of existence which is eternal goodness.

This is what I believe to be the truth. We humans are all finite and therefore have no other choice but to accept something as true. We can't create truth. We can't create a truth where God does not exist nor can we create a truth where God does exist. It's either true that God exists or it's not, no matter what humans do. The question is, what will you believe.

 

[Freodin]

the concepts of good and bad are human interpretations . what one human considers good another human might consider bad its a subjective interpretation . darkness and light exist but our subjective opinions about darkness and light attributing one as "good" and the other as "bad" is a human construct .

Yes, I would agree to that. But there are some - many - who would not. Those who think that there is absolute good and absolute bad... and that following what they think is "divine rule" is the first and disagreeing is the second. Makes it kind of difficult to come through to these people.

(Interestingly though, physically, the darkness is the source of the light. I wonder how that would be interpreted theologically?)

 

[Freodin]

If we assume God is the eternal foundation of all existence then God is an infinite duplicate of himself. In other words there can be no other eternal foundation and he can't duplicate himself more than infinitely.
All he can do is create lesser things than himself.

That is debatable. But I understand that is something you have to believe to keep up the rest of your worldview.

This lesser state of creation is where evil is possible. Evil is not possible with God because he's the eternal foundation of existence which is eternal goodness.

No. Evil, as you explain it, would not be possible in a creation, as you explain it. But here also I understand that you cannot believe that. I follows from your own statements, but if you were to make to connections, you would have to admit that your basic beliefs are wrong. And again I understand that you cannot do that.

This is what I believe to be the truth. We humans are all finite and therefore have no other choice but to accept something as true. We can't create truth. We can't create a truth where God does not exist nor can we create a truth where God does exist. It's either true that God exists or it's not, no matter what humans do. The question is, what will you believe.

Considering that there are quite a number of people out there who believe that God exists, and is completely different from what you believe, I'd say it is not as easy as you make it.