What is the positive evidence FOR creationism?

[crjmurray]

U Believe God exist



^This person claims they belong to Christ yet denies the scriptures.

You should fear God, or are you wiser than God (who you claim you to follow)?

Hebrews 11:3 ESV / 170 helpful votes
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Colossians 1:16 ESV / 151 helpful votes
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Genesis 1:1-31 ESV / 111 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. ...

Revelation 4:11 ESV / 60 helpful votes
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Genesis 2:7 ESV / 57 helpful votes
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 55 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 1:1-3 ESV / 50 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Exodus 20:11 ESV / 50 helpful votes
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Genesis 1:24-25 ESV / 47 helpful votes
And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:1 ESV / 42 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Job 12:7-9 ESV / 41 helpful votes
“But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?

Romans 1:20 ESV / 35 helpful votes
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Genesis 1:26 ESV / 33 helpful votes
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Hebrews 1:10 ESV / 29 helpful votes
And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;

Revelation 14:6-7 ESV / 28 helpful votes
Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Genesis 1:20 ESV / 28 helpful votes
And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”

Psalm 33:6 ESV / 27 helpful votes
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.

Job 37:5 ESV / 27 helpful votes
God thunders wondrously with his voice; he does great things that we cannot comprehend.

2 Peter 3:5 ESV / 26 helpful votes
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,

Not that one.

 

[ContraMundum]

They don't have to necessarily learn from me. I never made that claim. I am ready to help them to learn.

So you are here to coach the theists on how to learn.
How's that coming along?

 

[Leslie B]

You are not wiser than God, and by rejecting the truth your forfeiting eternal life. Repent your sins and put faith in God who created the world and in His son Jesus who died so you could be forgiven and is now alive in heaven at the right hand of God.

You will regret scoffing God one day. Hell is the eternal place for those who dont believe: Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Hebrews 11:3 ESV / 170 helpful votes
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Colossians 1:16 ESV / 151 helpful votes
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Genesis 1:1-31 ESV / 111 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. ...

Revelation 4:11 ESV / 60 helpful votes
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Genesis 2:7 ESV / 57 helpful votes
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 55 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 1:1-3 ESV / 50 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Exodus 20:11 ESV / 50 helpful votes
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Genesis 1:24-25 ESV / 47 helpful votes
And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:1 ESV / 42 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Job 12:7-9 ESV / 41 helpful votes
“But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?

Romans 1:20 ESV / 35 helpful votes
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Genesis 1:26 ESV / 33 helpful votes
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Hebrews 1:10 ESV / 29 helpful votes
And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;

Revelation 14:6-7 ESV / 28 helpful votes
Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Genesis 1:20 ESV / 28 helpful votes
And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”

Psalm 33:6 ESV / 27 helpful votes
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.

Job 37:5 ESV / 27 helpful votes
God thunders wondrously with his voice; he does great things that we cannot comprehend.

2 Peter 3:5 ESV / 26 helpful votes
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,[/QUOTE]

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you are here to coach the theists on how to learn.
How's that coming along?

Why did you try to imply that it is theists with the problem? Most Christians do not have to much trouble with reality. They accept the fact that life is the product of evolution.

Creationists are theists that reject reality, and since people that reject reality are not too reasonable I have not had to much luck with those that debate. The theists that debate have already closed their minds and they will not let evidence sway them. My audience would be the lurkers, those that want to learn. When they see how unreasonable creationists are it helps my cause.

 

[Not_By_Chance]

We find evidence for how the moon, stars, and other galaxies formed.

I don't think so. There are so many problems with trying to explain (just for example) how the first stars could have formed. Your comment implies that it is almost a done deal, when the actual reality is that it is nothing of the kind and so a person of the Christian faith would be entirely consistent by concluding that an all-powerful and all-knowing creator (Jesus) was the one who brought everything into being (the visible and invisible as it says in the Holy Scriptures). Of course we don't know exactly how He did it; our power and knowledge is nothing compared to His, but He did give us a very brief summary in the opening chapters of the Bible. Whether you prefer to place your faith in man's fallible ideas or trust the one who claimed to be God and clearly demonstrated Himself to be divine is, at the end of the day, your own personal choice, but you do have to make that choice, because Jesus made it clear that no-one can sit on the fence over this issue.
Mat 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

 

[Not_By_Chance]

What is the actual positive objective evidence FOR creationism?

I see lots of creationists trying to poke holes in alternate theories, but I don't see any objective evidence for creationism. Is there any? If so, what is it?

Well, first of all I would say that you have to consider the fact that since everyone now believes that the universe had a beginning, there are only TWO possibilities, either it was created or it created itself. You then have to look at what evidence we have to decide which of these two possibilites seems to be the most logical, as you can't prove which is correct. Both creation-believing scientists and evolution-believing scientists have the same evidence, for they all share the same world/universe. Also, despite possible objections to the contrary, as one of these two explanations becomes more credible, the other becomes less credible. Think of it as a slide rule, with creation at one end and evolution at the other. If someone were able to prove that evolution (cosmic, biological or any other type you care to name) were false, then that would logically verify creation, but similarly, if anyone were to prove that creation were false, then that would logically verify evolution. The negative versions of these statements also apply of course, i.e., if someone were able to prove that evolution (cosmic, biological or any other type you care to name) were true, then that would logically falsify creation, but similarly, if anyone were to prove that creation were true, then that would logically falsify evolution. So, look at the evidence (from both sides of the science argument, + examine the historical records that surround the Christian religion as they have something important to say as well) and then decide whether you wish to put your trust solely in man's ideas or whether you are prepared to give God the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Loudmouth]

This just goes to show how desperate some are to refuse to consider that the more likely possibility in the absence of any sensible explanation for how life began is that God created life.

When has magical poofing EVER been a sensible explanation for anything? How many times has the actions of a deity been verified as the cause of any phenomena we see in the Universe? Zero. How many times have supernatural explanations been replaced by verifiable natural processes? Thousands of times.

There are only two possibilities - either life was created or it wasn't. Since there is no reasonable explanation for how it could have got started on its own and plenty of valid reasons for rejecting such a notion, why not give God the benefit of the doubt, or is it just a continuation of the "we cannot allow a divine foot in the door" mentality?
Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Where is the reasonable explanation for creation?

 

[Loudmouth]

Well, first of all I would say that you have to consider the fact that since everyone now believes that the universe had a beginning, there are only TWO possibilities, either it was created or it created itself.

Where is the evidence that it was created by a deity?

 

[Loudmouth]

This is only a judgement on your part based on whether or not you agreed with the person you discussed the subject with. Isn't it quite possible that you just don't agree with their arguments?

Let's take a look at these arguments. Imagine if creationists used the same argument in a court of law during a murder trial.

"To the jury, we ask that you find John Smith guilty for the murder of Jane Smith. The evidence is clear. Jane Smith is dead. What more evidence do you need?"

Or better yet . . .

"To the jury, we ask that you find John Smith not guilty for the murder of Jane Smith. I know that the fingerprints, DNA, shoe prints, and fiber evidence all place my client at the murder scene. However, God could have planted that evidence there in such a way that it is indistinguishable from the commission of a real crime. Therefore, you must ignore all of that evidence."

These are the arguments we have been given. Why would anyone agree with that argument?

 

[Loudmouth]

They aren't looking for evidence for creation because the possibility that God was the creator has been ruled out from the beginning.

The only ones ruling out the possibility of evidence for creationism is creationists. Just read this thread.

They won't accept anything as evidence if it goes against their worldview.

What evidence are you talking about? All you have presented thus far are faith based beliefs.

 

[Loudmouth]

The Bible says in Genisis and also in Hebrews how the world was made: he spoke it into existence. By his word.

Are you wiser than God? You say you are born again but you dont have faith in the scriptures I quoted? Either have faith or dont. Fear God.

Why wouldn't this process leave evidence that we could observe in the present?

 

[DerelictJunction]

Exactly.

By faith.

If an item is accepted by faith, does that make the item true or false?

 

[AV1611VET]

If an item is accepted by faith, does that make the item true or false?

Depends on what it is.

Thalidomide or Humpty-Dumpty?

 

[DerelictJunction]

Depends on what it is.

Thalidomide or Humpty-Dumpty?

Are you saying that something which is false can be accepted as true by faith?

 

[Not_By_Chance]

U Believe God exist



^This person claims they belong to Christ yet denies the scriptures.

You should fear God, or are you wiser than God (who you claim you to follow)?

Hebrews 11:3 ESV / 170 helpful votes
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Colossians 1:16 ESV / 151 helpful votes
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Genesis 1:1-31 ESV / 111 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. ...

Revelation 4:11 ESV / 60 helpful votes
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Genesis 2:7 ESV / 57 helpful votes
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 55 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 1:1-3 ESV / 50 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Exodus 20:11 ESV / 50 helpful votes
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Genesis 1:24-25 ESV / 47 helpful votes
And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:1 ESV / 42 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Job 12:7-9 ESV / 41 helpful votes
“But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?

Romans 1:20 ESV / 35 helpful votes
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Genesis 1:26 ESV / 33 helpful votes
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Hebrews 1:10 ESV / 29 helpful votes
And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;

Revelation 14:6-7 ESV / 28 helpful votes
Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Genesis 1:20 ESV / 28 helpful votes
And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”

Psalm 33:6 ESV / 27 helpful votes
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.

Job 37:5 ESV / 27 helpful votes
God thunders wondrously with his voice; he does great things that we cannot comprehend.

2 Peter 3:5 ESV / 26 helpful votes
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,

What a refreshing change to hear someone on this forum standing by the word of God as it is written and clearly meant to be understood.

 

[Not_By_Chance]

What evidence are you talking about?

The same evidence you have. We all live in the same world/universe with exactly the same rocks, living creatures, planets, etc, so the evidence has to be the same. It's the interpretations that are different.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What a refreshing change to hear someone on this forum standing by the word of God as it is written and clearly meant to be understood.

If another Christian disagrees with your interpretation of scripture that does not mean that they are not "standing by the word of God". In fact if you made that claim of yours towards a fellow Christian here you could get in trouble.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The same evidence you have. We all live in the same world/universe with exactly the same rocks, living creatures, planets, etc, so the evidence has to be the same. It's the interpretations that are different.

And the methodology of interpretation. We have a consistent method of interpretation, it appears that you do not. Our method produces positive results. The screen you are reading and the keyboard that you are typing on are products of our methodology.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you saying that something which is false can be accepted as true by faith?

Of course.

Why do you think so many pregnant women took Thalidomide?

 

[Not_By_Chance]

"To the jury, we ask that you find John Smith not guilty for the murder of Jane Smith. I know that the fingerprints, DNA, shoe prints, and fiber evidence all place my client at the murder scene. However, God could have planted that evidence there in such a way that it is indistinguishable from the commission of a real crime. Therefore, you must ignore all of that evidence."

These are the arguments we have been given. Why would anyone agree with that argument?

This is a fallacious argument so it's not relevant. The quote is about forensic evidence, using our experience of the way things usually happen to produce a probable scenario, to which extent it is repeatable (by comparing with similar crime scenes), but even then it's not foolproof. In your example, what about if someone had a grudge against John Smith and set him up by deliberately planting false evidence? Watch the movie, "Witness for the prosecution" and you'll see that things aren't always what they seem. The conclusions drawn from evidence that we have in respect of the creation/evolution argument refer to things that have happened in the past and so can only ever be guesswork. The conclusions you ultimately come to will therefore be influenced by how much weight you give to any particular criteria and whether you think it supports or refutes your own particular beliefs. This is well demonstrated by the experience of Dr Gary Parker, a strong supporter of evolution, who used to teach the subject in his biology classes at university, but when he became a creation scientist, he remarked that he was amazed that he hadn't been able to see all the evidence for creation (until after his conversion). Dr Parker is not the only academic that this has happened to, so it's not an isolated incident.