Retired California Bishop Takes Pope's Invitation to Speak His Mind

[Fantine]

In an op-ed to the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/opinion/how-the-pope-might-renew-the-church.html?ref=opinion&_r=1

and an interview with "America:"
http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/california-bishop-voices-support-ordination-women

the 94 year-old bishop supports optional celibacy for priests, women's ordination, and communion for divorced/remarried couples.

A retired Catholic bishop in California is speaking publicly for the first time about his support for the ordination of women, saying he found “liberation” when Pope Francis encouraged bishops at the extraordinary synod last October to “speak boldly and listen humbly” about issues facing the church.

Here's a test of the proposed rule! Can you be as open-minded and respectful as Pope Francis is willing to be?

 

[Armoured]

"Not real Catholic" intimations in 3...2...

 

[Davidnic]

It's interesting but Bishop Quinn does not explain how it is theologically possible. Pope Francis has confirmed that it is impossible so Bishop Quinn can talk about how the Church would benefit, but the Church would benefit from a few things She can not do. I am more than willing to read his arguments and ponder them. But unless he makes an argument that explains how it is possible within the nature of the Sacrament it is an exercise is free discussion (which is fine) but not an argument on the merit and possibility of the idea. I would be interested to see, if he has such an argument, what it is.

 

[Martinius]

One of the statements from Bishop Quinn about increasing the number of priests was: "I suggest we consider married men, in mature marriages and who are of good character".

I like this a lot. Even before I saw this I had been considering possibilities. One of them is "staring us in the face". I have known many good Permanent Deacons over the years, and several of them would have made, or would make, excellent priests. So here is my simple proposal:

Ordain to the priesthood Permanent Deacons who have a minimum number of years as a deacon (5 or more?), have demonstrated "good character", who are vetted and recommended by those who know them (priests, other deacons, parishioners), and who obtain additional education and training. The transition would not be a big one for them, as like priests, they can and do periodically move from parish to parish. The fact that they are married would be no bigger hurdle than we have with ordaining married Anglican ministers. And no real change in theology or dogma is required.

Those becoming Permanent Deacons would know that this option could be available to them in the future, and they could take that step or choose to remain deacons. It could also have the beneficial effect of attracting more good candidates to becoming deacons, and eventually priests.

 

[Rhamiel]

quotes from the Op-Ed
"Observers within and outside the church point to mandatory celibacy as a principal factor driving down the number of American priests."

it is not like mandatory celibacy is something new, so we can not really call it the "principal factor"
because we have had priestly celibacy and a very healthy number of priests and monks and nuns

"For 1,000 years, great good has been accomplished because priests could fully devote their lives to their ministry."
that is an oversimplification
even when there were married priests, priestly celibacy was the norm, along with the idea of continence (priests being married but no longer having sex anymore) was the ideal within the Early Church and even into the Middle Ages
so just saying that for a millennium we had married priests is oversimplification to the point of being misleading

I agree with Davidnic's assessment on the Bishops non-argument for priestesses


Bishop Quinn does make some very thought provoking points about how we express love near the end of his article

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Retired senile bishops have just as much right to their incorrect opinions as anyone else.

 

[concretecamper]

I think Pope Francis' own quote sums it up when it comes to this wayward Bishop

"Satan Seduces Us by Disguising Evil as Good"

Did the Pope just violate the proposed rule?lol

 

[Martinius]

Retired senile bishops have just as much right to their incorrect opinions as anyone else.

That is totally uncalled for. Bishop Quinn appears to be no more senile than you are, and his position and experience deserve respect and consideration.

It is interesting how often retired bishops and priests are willing to speak out in ways they could not when they were active. I know of one retired priest who has been speaking out for victims of abuse in his diocese, and pointing out the failings of the hierarchy there over many decades. His past experience working on the inside of diocesan bureaucracy gives him the knowledge and the moral auhority that the bishops there abrogated in trying to protect the "reputation" of the Church.

It also amazes me how fearful of dialogue and debate a segment of the hierarchical Church is, to the point of trying to control thought and freedom of expression. It has never worked, even when the punishment was often execution, and it is foolish vanity to try. No one can stop people from using their God given intellect.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

That is totally uncalled for. Bishop Quinn appears to be no more senile than you are, and his position and experience deserve respect and consideration.
Not when they contradict Church teachings.

It is interesting how often retired bishops and priests are willing to speak out in ways they could not when they were active.
How often? Any examples? Or just bluster?
I know of one retired priest who has been speaking out for victims of abuse in his diocese, and pointing out the failings of the hierarchy there over many decades.
You do? Who? Let's have a name, if there is one.
His past experience working on the inside of diocesan bureaucracy gives him the knowledge and the moral auhority that the bishops there abrogated in trying to protect the "reputation" of the Church.

It also amazes me how fearful of dialogue and debate a segment of the hierarchical Church is, to the point of trying to control thought and freedom of expression.
Which segment? Names? Examples?
It has never worked, even when the punishment was often execution, and it is foolish vanity to try. No one can stop people from using their God given intellect.

 

[Martinius]

It's interesting but Bishop Quinn does not explain how it is theologically possible. Pope Francis has confirmed that it is impossible so Bishop Quinn can talk about how the Church would benefit, but the Church would benefit from a few things She can not do. I am more than willing to read his arguments and ponder them. But unless he makes an argument that explains how it is possible within the nature of the Sacrament it is an exercise is free discussion (which is fine) but not an argument on the merit and possibility of the idea. I would be interested to see, if he has such an argument, what it is.

Bishop Quinn's article was not in a peer-reviewed theology journal, so I would not expect a theological dissertation. He is giving his opinion, which carries some weight due to his past position and experience.

However, the theological possibilities have been presented by a number of Catholic theologians. The theology does exist, even though it is not subscribed to by the Church Magisterium. As you likely know, there is now, and there has been over the history of the Church, theological discussion that has moved beyond the bounds of whatever is considered orthodox. Most lay Catholics are simply not aware of it.

 

[mark46]

Pope Francis is first dealing with the annulment process and will likely deal with the issue of communion for the remarried. Whether we will like his decision is another matter entirely.

I'm sure that Pope Francis has heard the call to make celibacy optional for priests, at least in those areas of the work;d that want this change in rules. As was suggested, the requirement of being a deacon first for a certain number of years should certainly be acceptable. Eastern Rite married men can become Catholic priests. Anglican married priests can become Catholic priests (is this true also for other denominations?)? It is certainly POSSIBLE that Pope Francis will grant the US the right to accept married men into the priesthood.

Allowing females into the priesthood is another matter entirely, and is not likely to happen for a very long time, if ever.

 

[Davidnic]

I am aware of more than a few arguments for it (women priests). All can be shown to be faulty theologically. I would like to see the bishop continue to elaborate on how he thinks it is possible. And see how he thinks it can be reconciled to consistent sacramental theology and objection. Including the objections of Pope Francis who says it is not for discussion.

 

[Fantine]

There is apparently a women's ordination conference going on in Philadelphia this weekend (or if not this weekend, very soon). I saw a FB post about it--an acquaintance is attending.

It's not a high priority issue for me, but it seems that the people who hammer down the lid the hardest are people who seem resistant to change in lots of other areas as well, and so I tend not to take them that seriously. Their actions seem predictable. I've lived too long to take the word "never" seriously, because I've seen too many things people thought would "never" happen happen. Those of you who haven't lived as long as I have can feel free to disagree with me.

 

[Rhamiel]

He is giving his opinion, which carries some weight due to his past position and experience.

well if he does not back up what he has to say with sound reason, then despite his position, I do not think it carries that much weight

a mathematician can say "well I think 5=2" but if he does not really back it up with math, then it is just him talking nonsense

It's not a high priority issue for me, but it seems that the people who hammer down the lid the hardest are people who seem resistant to change in lots of other areas as well, and so I tend not to take them that seriously.

St. Pope John Paul II was very strong on this issue
do you not take him seriously?

 

[Rhamiel]

about female priests
like.... a Bishop says something.... and we are scolded and told "you guys better listen to him, come on, be open minded"

but then we have successive Popes and entire Bishop Conferences making statements against this and people just fluff it off

seems kind of selective....

 

[Martinius]

I am aware of more than a few arguments for it (women priests). All can be shown to be faulty theologically. I would like to see the bishop continue to elaborate on how he thinks it is possible. And see how he thinks it can be reconciled to consistent sacramental theology and objection. Including the objections of Pope Francis who says it is not for discussion.

David,
Thanks for agreeing that there are theological arguments for ordaining women. Faulty theology is in the eye of the beholder; others may find it quite reasonable. The good bishop may have stated elsewhere his reasons for supporting women's ordination, but they may not have been addressed in that particular interview.

I too expect Pope Francis to remain consistent with past doctrine and support the orthodox theology. But neither he nor anyone else can shut off discussion about it. Only those, such as active priests and bishops and some theologians, who are under the direct authority of the Pope or bishops, will conform to that expectation. The rest of us can discuss it as much as we like.

Despite our disagreement here, I appreciate all the contributions you are making to these forums. You discuss things in a very concise and reasonable manner, and avoid the use of hyperbole and personal attacks, unlike some others here. BTW, you also have a lovely family. Congrats.

P.S. I would welcome your thoughts about the possibility of elevating qualified Permanent Deacons to the priesthood, as proposed in my original post here.

 

[Fantine]

St. Pope John Paul II was very strong on this issue
do you not take him seriously?

I don't take the word "never" seriously, but since I don't think it will happen in my lifetime it's not something I pay much attention to.

But I am an optimist, and hope for a better future for the Church--and the world--is in my blood.

 

[Rhamiel]

I hope for a better future for the Church as well

were the laity actually acts like "children of the Church"
and try to conform their thinking to teachings of the Church that have been handed down from the time of the Apostles
paid for in the blood of martyrs

 

[Davidnic]

David,
Thanks for agreeing that there are theological arguments for ordaining women. Faulty theology is in the eye of the beholder; others may find it quite reasonable. The good bishop may have stated elsewhere his reasons for supporting women's ordination, but they may not have been addressed in that particular interview.

I too expect Pope Francis to remain consistent with past doctrine and support the orthodox theology. But neither he nor anyone else can shut off discussion about it. Only those, such as active priests and bishops and some theologians, who are under the direct authority of the Pope or bishops, will conform to that expectation. The rest of us can discuss it as much as we like.

Despite our disagreement here, I appreciate all the contributions you are making to these forums. You discuss things in a very concise and reasonable manner, and avoid the use of hyperbole and personal attacks, unlike some others here. BTW, you also have a lovely family. Congrats.

P.S. I would welcome your thoughts about the possibility of elevating qualified Permanent Deacons to the priesthood, as proposed in my original post here.

First, thank you for your kind words.

As far as Permanent Deacons. I have one reservation and that is that it is a different vocation. Having discerned for the Priesthood and attended Seminary in my youth and having discerned for the Diaconate in recent years (and will be starting formation soon); they are two different vocations and formation processes. So that will have to be taken into account.

Later (after tea, kids and wife's breakfast, Church and CCD teaching) I can go into how the process is different, but my worry is that the Diaconate will be cheapened and seen as just a place for wash out priests. So the Church must guard against that in any mass elevation process.

These concerns could, of course, be addressed by the Church. But that would be my greatest reservation of elevation. It is far from insurmountable.

Now there is a process currently existent for a man whose wife dies, if he is a deacon, to become a priest. So there is a foundation. He needs the permission of his children and the Bishop.

And in that lies the essential difference in discernment between the two. The process for permanent Deacons is a family process.

So I am not opposed to it as long as the essential character of each vocation is not blurred and the family nature of the discernment is heavily stressed.

 

[Martinius]

...As far as Permanent Deacons. I have one reservation and that is that it is a different vocation. Having discerned for the Priesthood and attended Seminary in my youth and having discerned for the Diaconate in recent years (and will be starting formation soon); they are two different vocations and formation processes. So that will have to be taken into account...

So I am not opposed to it as long as the essential character of each vocation is not blurred and the family nature of the discernment is heavily stressed.

Thanks for your insights. Your thoughts and concerns make sense. Priesthood and the Diaconate being two different (but related) vocations would be addressed by making them separate formation processes, as they are now. Time and experience as a deacon would allow them to discern whether becoming a priest was for them. The same with their family, as you say. We are talking about more "mature" adults as well, which factors into the process along with the diaconate experience. The idea would not be to offer the diaconate to "washed out" priests but the priesthood to qualified and able deacons. It would be an individual discernment, not just elevating a bunch of deacons to the priesthood.

I am somewhat familiar with a seminary that prepares older men for the priesthood. These men come from all over. I see the formation of deacons to becoming priests to be similar, with the added advantage of the deacons having had more and closer opportunities to observe and participate in the realities of being a parish priest.