Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Goatee]

You've just made a great point AGAINST traditions of men.
Like you said, the thousands of churches like to interpret Scripture in their own unique way. And sorry friend but yours is no different. And it's not the only church that claims this apostolic succession either. God bless you though! I was raised to believe that too.
Truth of the matter though,
Scripture is and always has been supreme.
Jesus refered to it and I do too.
He didn't say "So and so said"
He said, IT IS WRITTEN!
Good enough for Him, good enough for me.

Thats right, but, i am on about 'Tradition' Not tradition of mere men! The 1,000s of churches that have sprouted up use tradition of mere men, not from the Holy Spirit!

Jesus did say IT IS WRITTEN. But, what he was teaching and what the Apostles taught later was 'Not' written. It was through the Holy Spirit that these words came. Then they were written as we know them today in the NT. But, the Holy Spirit continues to work through the church. It grows within the church. Scripture grows via the Holy Spirit!!

 

[tulipbee]

Lol, show me the word trinity in the Bible. If you can't, the Catholic Church recognized the concept even though it is not explicitly taught, and gave the concept a name.

God is past, present and future. The three is one. You're probably included.

 

[tulipbee]

Could someone actually define what everyone understands "sola scriptura" to mean?

It means the bible is completed. Don't add anything to it.

 

[tulipbee]

OK, thanks.

Would this include the gnostic Gospels?

Those are written by men without the inspiration from God. They are like urantia books

 

[tulipbee]

Scripture alone is not supreme and if you look at the 1,000s of churches that have sprung up since Luther you will see that these 'churches' like to interpret scripture in their own unique way! They like to twist it to suit their needs and even change it to suit their needs. True 'Tradition' comes from the Church that Jesus started, The Catholic Church.

Twisted tradition and true traditions are the same. Still invented by men who added to the Scriptures

 

[Albion]

How would you describe "predestined for Hell"?

Even those few Christians who believe in double predestination don't seem to me to think that God wants to lose those people or takes any satisfaction from the idea that some of his creatures will be eternally estranged from him. We know that this was not his intention at the time of Creation.

 

[tulipbee]

As I've said. I don't follow Luther and I'm not looking through all that for one piece of information that you say is in there. I love it when people toss out a these things and say go find it, when they could post the link to the specific subject and be done with it.

What exactly is this holy tradiction outside what church dogma has decided it is? Seems to me you are claiming that everything Catholic is tradiction because the Catholics believe it.

Lot of Catholics supported Luther at the courts but we're afraid to speak up in fear of being burned to death at stake. Luther refused to recant and followed the wills of the Holy Spirit. See, God was with Luther. It shows the RCC took their own path according to their own traditions and fell apart. They tried to save the church through orthodox church but it also fell apart. God brought Protestants and the reformation and now the church is alive and well without false traditions. RCC are listed among JW, Mormons and others

 

[tulipbee]

How would you describe "predestined for Hell"?

God passes over the sinners and collects the elects

 

[Dialogist]

Those are written by men without the inspiration from God. They are like urantia books

How do we know that these particular books are written by men without inspiration from God?

 

[Albion]

How do we know that these particular books are written by men without inspiration from God?

1. The church and no branch of it has ever accepted them as inspired.
2. The contents either show no continuity with the rest of the Bible books or else are clearly in opposition to them.

Of course, it could still be answered, "Who is to say?" But this (above) is a reliable guide, and it's never a good idea to opt for believing any writing has been inspired by God simply because a few people think it's reasonable or appealing. IMHO the comparison that was made to Urantia was appropriate.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Lot of Catholics supported Luther at the courts but we're afraid to speak up in fear of being burned to death at stake. Luther refused to recant and followed the wills of the Holy Spirit. See, God was with Luther. It shows the RCC took their own path according to their own traditions and fell apart. They tried to save the church through orthodox church but it also fell apart. God brought Protestants and the reformation and now the church is alive and well without false traditions. RCC are listed among JW, Mormons and others

Well, I have nothing against Catholics or any other religions for that matter. I do have a rather tarnished veiw of JW, because I had to endur them. The reason I interjected into this thread was because of the antibiblical tones that are taken here and that had more to do, I think with promoting Catholisism over any other religion and that's just arogant assumption.

 

[Dialogist]

1. The church and no branch of it has ever accepted them as inspired.
2. The contents either show no continuity with the rest of the Bible books or else are clearly in opposition to them.

Of course, it could still be answered, "Who is to say?" But this (above) is a reliable guide, and it's never a good idea to opt for believing any writing has been inspired by God simply because a few people think it's reasonable or appealing. IMHO the comparison that was made to Urantia was appropriate.

That was the point I was trying to coax out. If, as others have suggested, Sola Scriptura means

the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice

then the Bible must somehow be auto-authenticating.

I would offer the following points for discussion:

1. When "Scripture" is referred to in the New Testament, it refers to the Old Testament, since at the time of the events that the New Testament documents there were no New Testament scriptures.

2. The books that comprise the New Testament were chosen from the writings that were extant in the first few centuries of Christianity and came to be included in the canon through decisions of various Church councils, starting with the local Council of Carthage in 397 and culminating with the final ratification of the current canon for the whole Church at the Seventh Ecumenical Council in Nicea in 787.

3. One could argue that the decisions of the various Church councils were irrelevant, since the Holy Spirit presumably guided the body of believers as a whole to perceive which books belonged in the canon and which did not. But this belief in itself implies that it is not the Bible, in fact, that is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice, but is rather the Holy Spirit itself, as it guides "the Church" - whether one believes "the Church" to mean some amorphous, non-hierarchical "body of believers", one of the Churches of Apostolic Succession, or something else altogether.

4. If exegesis of a portion of Scripture (e.g. the Old Testament) led believers to add additional writings to the canon, then one is trusting in the "authority" (for lack of a better word) of the one or ones doing the exegesis. For example, in the second century a great many believers put their trust in the exegesis of Marcion of Sinope, who maintained that the Bible should only consist of the Gospel of Luke and ten epistles of Paul. His canon was, in fact, the first recorded canon in Christian history, if I am not mistaken.

 

[tulipbee]

Thats really really easy and on top of that, its scientifically been proven that the other books are not inspired by God. Those that want to dig deeper can Google Ivan panin or http://www.theomatics.com those that are not interested in the proofs should not reply.
The hint is the fact that RCC made it a tradition to include the extra 7 books in the bible and call it complete while the popes authorize it to be from God. The proofs are there the the extra books are not inspired by God and that makes the new traditions false and not from God.

 

[Albion]

That was the point I was trying to coax out. If, as others have suggested, Sola Scriptura means



then the Bible must somehow be auto-authenticating.

I would offer the following points for discussion:

1. When "Scripture" is referred to in the New Testament, it refers to the Old Testament, since at the time of the events that the New Testament documents there were no New Testament scriptures.

Technically, that's probably so. It requires us to disregard some other considerations, but it's a reasonable point. I would not agree that it is conclusive in eliminating the Gospels, for example.

3. One could argue that the decisions of the various Church councils were irrelevant, since the Holy Spirit presumably guided the body of believers as a whole to perceive which books belonged in the canon and which did not. But this belief in itself implies that it is not the Bible, in fact, that is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice, but is rather the Holy Spirit itself, as it guides "the Church" - whether one believes "the Church" to mean some amorphous, non-hierarchical "body of believers", one of the Churches of Apostolic Succession, or something else altogether.

Frankly, I don't see the point here. No one is denying the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It seems a separate issue.

 

[Dialogist]

The hint is the fact that RCC made it a tradition to include the extra 7 books in the bible and call it complete

What are you referring to here?

 

[tulipbee]

What are you referring to here?

Referring to Catholics claiming they wrote the bible while it is God that inspired men of his choice. In other words the Catholic library is just a library. My local library has no right the claim the own Moby dick cause the have a copy of it. The writers of the bible are men. The Catholics don't own those men. There just men that wrote the bible inspired by God. They didn't call themselves Catholics. The RCC did and made it a tradition like own the bible.

 

[Dialogist]

Referring to Catholics claiming they wrote the bible while it is God that inspired men of his choice. In other words the Catholic library is just a library. My local library has no right the claim the own Moby dick cause the have a copy of it. The writers of the bible are men. The Catholics don't own those men. There just men that wrote the bible inspired by God. They didn't call themselves Catholics. The RCC did and made it a tradition like own the bible.

I guess I should have been clearer.

Perhaps it is in an earlier post, but what seven books are you referring to that the RCC added?

 

[Goatee]

Twisted tradition and true traditions are the same. Still invented by men who added to the Scriptures

Wrong. Tradition was and is handed down via the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised!

 

[Goatee]

Twisted tradition and true traditions are the same. Still invented by men who added to the Scriptures

Wrong. Tradition was and is handed down via the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised!

 

[Goatee]

Twisted tradition and true traditions are the same. Still invented by men who added to the Scriptures

Wrong. Tradition was and is handed down via the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised!

 

[Goatee]

Twisted tradition and true traditions are the same. Still invented by men who added to the Scriptures

Wrong. Tradition was and is handed down via the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised!

 

[Goatee]

Twisted tradition and true traditions are the same. Still invented by men who added to the Scriptures

Wrong. Tradition was and is handed down via the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised!

 

[zardak]

In the original languages the whole Bible is perfect and complete. God ordained, from the first letter in the book of "Genesis" to the last letter in the book of "Revelation".

 

[Chandler50]

In the original languages the whole Bible is perfect and complete. God ordained, from the first letter in the book of "Genesis" to the last letter in the book of "Revelation".

Yes He did. But that has nothing to do with taking Bible as the only authority. Catholics believe that God inspired every book as well, but we also recognize that the Holy Spirit is living and active in the Church.

 

[tulipbee]

I guess I should have been clearer.

Perhaps it is in an earlier post, but what seven books are you referring to that the RCC added?

Those 7 books are Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, First Maccabees, and Second Maccabees. They are not inspired by God but the Catholics wouldn't know anyway

 

[tulipbee]

Yes He did. But that has nothing to do with taking Bible as the only authority. Catholics believe that God inspired every book as well, but we also recognize that the Holy Spirit is living and active in the Church.

What's every book?

 

[tulipbee]

Wrong. Tradition was and is handed down via the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised!

Way too many bad traditions!

 

[Chandler50]

Way too many bad traditions!

Name one that is anti biblical.

 

[Chandler50]

Well because you're a dumb Catholic, believing in a fake head called the Pope instead of God's word, you don't take the scriptures seriously, just like most Catholics, they just butcher God's word or disbelieve it. Problem is, it is not possible to make idolatry of the Bible, God's word: Psalm 138:2 "for thou hast magnified THY WORD ABOVE ALL THY NAME."





I'm gonna clear this up once and for all... The whole Catholic 'religion' is based on a futile presumption and erroneous blatant misinterpretation of a single verse in the entire Bible> Namely Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." < problem is that Jesus was REFERRING TO HIMSELF when he said "upon this rock"; Jesus himself is the rock! And how do i know that?



1 Corinthians 10:4 "And they all drank the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual rock which followed them, and THAT "ROCK" WAS CHRIST." < THE 'EXACT' SAME GREEK WORD HERE FOR "ROCK" in both Matthew 16:18 and 1 Corinthians 10:4.

So, you're elitist religious scam has been exposed, you Catholics; go back to your den or denounce the Catholic heresy and be a real Christian.



The Catholic Church is Satan's bride, which the Bible tells us is arrayed in scarlet and purple. Nothing but perversion and heinous crime and evil has ever come from the Catholic Church during it's entire existence.



From the inception of the so-called Catholic church, they embraced pagan rituals and false religions and brought heathen in and perverted Christianity, mixing false god's and pagan rituals and beliefs over and above the scriptures < the first stage of Catholic garbage, then during the middle ages (otherwise known as the dark ages) the Catholic Church did everything it could to keep the Bible out of peoples hands to prevent them from getting the light of Jesus (such is why it was called the dark ages) < the second stage of Catholic garbage, then after that the catholic church killed MILLIONS of god-fearing decent Christian people simply because they wouldn't verbally 'pledge' allegiance to the Pope (same garbage we're seeing from ISIS in the middle east, and why the book of revelation says the Catholic Church is drunk with the blood of the saints) < third stage of Catholic garbage, and then it started world war one with Germany as the proxy, then it tried again and started world war two with Germany at the helm again, but God empowered protestants to break-away from the 'tyranny' of the Catholic Church thus allowing people to retain the divine light of the Bible, thus bringing liberty and prosperity and spiritual light to the Western world, so now that the Catholic Church is powerless to commit outright tyranny, the evil within still has to manifest and squirm it's way out somehow, so it manifests in the form of pedophilia en-masse by thousands of deviate degenerate priests manifesting the true perverted spirit behind the Catholic Church < the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, says the book of revelation. < that's why God said "Come out of her my people, that ye be not partaker of her sins or share in the wrath to come upon her".



Everything the Catholic Church has been throughout history is just one long line of death and destruction and crime and tyranny and filth, wickedness and murder beyond belief, and yet 'Chandler50' dares to say "The Catholic Way is the 'TRUE FAITH" < ROFL. How can the Pope be the head of the church when scripture says: Colossians 1:18 "And Jesus is the head of the body, the church: he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." and... Ephesians 1:22 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him TO BE THE HEAD OVER ALL THINGS to the church"



Philippians 3:3 "For we (Bible believers with the Spirit in us) are the true circumcision, who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus; moreover having no confidence in the flesh."



Ephesians 4:11 "And he (Jesus) gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers"



Tell me, where in that verse Ephesians 4:11 does it ever mention "Priests" "Cardinals" or a "Pope"??? Well we know it doesn't, and since the positions in the Catholic church don't align with the prescribed positions appointed and given by Christ, then the Catholic Church qualifies as a factional sect, an apostate perverse motley-crew masquerading as a Church, but by their fruits ye shall know them, says Jesus. The fruits of the Catholic Church are disgusting, and saturated with filth and death and perversity and falsity and proud deluded religious elitism, no better than ISIS in the Middle East.



And because we the protestants NOW HAVE THE WORD OF GOD IN OUR HANDS, then we are able to easily identify abject heretics like the Catholic apostate religion.



Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD."



John 1:12 "But AS MANY as received him, TO THEM he gave power to become the sons of God, even TO THEM THAT 'BELIEVE' ON HIS NAME".



Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and 'believe' in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED."





So, should i believe the word of God and be led by the Spirit, or should i bow to a statue of Mary and keep calling myself the one truth faith < pathetic!! You Catholics are a joke! But if you're genuine, and don't want to be a heretic and a factional religious elitist, then come out of the Catholic harlot, says God, and then you can be led by the spirit and tutored by Pastors and teachers and prophets, who actually teach God's word and believe what it says.



The only last thing that needs to be disproved is how the Catholic church claims to be the original church, but that's easy to disprove. The epistles in the New Testament were written not long after the death of Christ, and those churches after Christ's death were in existence long before the Catholic church was even heard of < game over Catholics! Drop the charade.





You see now people? When people say stupid things like "The Catholic Way is the 'TRUE FAITH" < ignore heretics and false brethren as warned by Paul the apostle.

Typical Pentacostal, ignoring all history and evidence. I suppose you have to discount historical evidence when you religion was started in the early 1900's. Tell me, how is Chuck doing by the way?