Continuing Revelation

[light upon light]

Japan is facing an enormous oncoming social disaster, with a TFR of 1.4 and a debt to GDP ratio of 230%. Not sure I would pick them as an example of a successful society.

Sweden isn't atheist, 63% believe in God and/or in some kind of spiritual force.

 

[smaneck]

but why not look at current examples of atheist cultures that are all around us like Japan, Sweden, etc.?

I think you are confusing a secular culture with an atheist culture. They aren't the same.

 

[smaneck]

Well, that's your view. I would say that Christianity claims both short and long term returns. I'd also be hesitant to say that atheism appears to make people better members of society.

I think the reason so many liberal Americans have that impression is because in the US Christianity has been so tied up in right-wing politics which many of us consider self-serving, if not downright selfish. Of course it is wrong to equate American Evangelicalism to Christianity, unfortunately the former is what most of us see, or did see before a certain Latin American was elected Pope.

 

[cloudyday2]

Japan is facing an enormous oncoming social disaster, with a TFR of 1.4 and a debt to GDP ratio of 230%. Not sure I would pick them as an example of a successful society.

Sweden isn't atheist, 63% believe in God and/or in some kind of spiritual force.

Japan is a super society. A friend who travels to Japan often for work, told me they are the most genuinely considerate people you can imagine. I worry about the future of the US, but I don't worry about Japan.

I'm not sure how you got the statistic that 63% believe in God in Sweden. Sweden and Norway are the promised land for atheists. Almost nobody believes in God there. A lot depends on the phrasing of the question in these surveys.

 

[cloudyday2]

^Oops, I forgot. I will stop posting in this thread, because I'm getting it off-topic. (sorry again)

 

[light upon light]

I'm not sure how you got the statistic that 63% believe in God in Sweden. Sweden and Norway are the promised land for atheists. Almost nobody believes in God there. A lot depends on the phrasing of the question in these surveys.

18% believing in God is not "almost nobody".

The 63% includes 45% who believe in some kind of spiritual force. So you have, presumably, 37% agnostics and strong atheists.

I don't know what the numbers are for Japan.

 

[light upon light]

Japan is a super society. A friend who travels to Japan often for work, told me they are the most genuinely considerate people you can imagine. I worry about the future of the US, but I don't worry about Japan.

It's great that they are considerate. They are also a closed society with extremely few immigrants, they aren't having children, their economy is moribund and they are drowning in unpayable debts.

I do worry about their future.

 

[Robban]

Japan is a super society. A friend who travels to Japan often for work, told me they are the most genuinely considerate people you can imagine. I worry about the future of the US, but I don't worry about Japan.

I'm not sure how you got the statistic that 63% believe in God in Sweden. Sweden and Norway are the promised land for atheists. Almost nobody believes in God there. A lot depends on the phrasing of the question in these surveys.

In Sweden we are not many maybe about 9 mill,
Norway 61/2- 7,
Roughly, easy checked.
But in any case it is not so as you say, absolute not.

Here a video from a tv series which was very popular,
they made many of these vidioes,
And this only from the pentecostal side
.
Thing is, most people don,t make a big number of it.
Most of those in these vidioes, I know who they are, some I also know.
It is so when living in a big country with few inhabitants.

Thing is, it is free, each are free to indulge in their beliefs.

Promised land for athiests?
All are welcome.
That is how our society works,
no discrimination.

 

[Robban]

I do not know of any Jews where I live, locally, though there probably are somewhere,
Nearest Community is miles and miles away, and no car, so.
December I look out for chanukah lights,but have not spotted as of yet,

But I have, so at least from somewhere the light is seen.

 

[smaneck]

Sweden isn't atheist, 63% believe in God and/or in some kind of spiritual force.

Actually, that is the percentage of the population who belong to the Church of Sweden. The 18% represents the number of those who consider religion important in their lives but that doesn't make the other 82% atheists.

 

[light upon light]

Actually, that is the percentage of the population who belong to the Church of Sweden. The 18% represents the number of those who consider religion important in their lives but that doesn't make the other 82% atheists.

I was referencing this survey, quoted in the Wikipedia article "Religion in Sweden":

"In a Eurobarometer Poll in 2010, just 18% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", although a further 45% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force". "

 

[ContraMundum]

I think the reason so many liberal Americans have that impression is because in the US Christianity has been so tied up in right-wing politics which many of us consider self-serving, if not downright selfish. Of course it is wrong to equate American Evangelicalism to Christianity, unfortunately the former is what most of us see, or did see before a certain Latin American was elected Pope.

Could not agree more.

 

[ContraMundum]

People often point to communist dictatorships from the past as examples of atheist culture, but why not look at current examples of atheist cultures that are all around us like Japan, Sweden, etc.? Hopefully the US will be counted as an atheist culture in a decade or two.

(Sorry, I keep dragging this thread off-topic. I'm going to stop following it, so that doesn't keep happening.)

I would argue that both Sweden and Japan are far from "atheism". Those nations allow freedom of religion and in the case of Sweden has a historic church that until 2000 was established. Whereas communism enshrined atheism as the official position of the State, in the firm belief that theism would fade away into history when people saw that the scientific approach taught in part by Marxist dialectical materialism was far superior and led to stable societies free from the struggles of superstition and clericalism. In fact it backfired terribly just as the preachers of the new atheism seem to be hitting a brick wall today.

 

[cloudyday2]

I would argue that both Sweden and Japan are far from "atheism". Those nations allow freedom of religion and in the case of Sweden has a historic church that until 2000 was established. Whereas communism enshrined atheism as the official position of the State, in the firm belief that theism would fade away into history when people saw that the scientific approach taught in part by Marxist dialectical materialism was far superior and led to stable societies free from the struggles of superstition and clericalism. In fact it backfired terribly just as the preachers of the new atheism seem to be hitting a brick wall today.

The problem with communism IMO was their apparent belief that "the end justifies the means". Their goals were laudable. The Freemasons seemed to have similarly progressive goals, but they emphasized moderation, liberty, patience, etc. It is sad to see Putin promoting religion and fascism today after the USSR had made so much progress.

 

[light upon light]

"after the USSR had made so much progress."

?!

The Soviet Union went bankrupt building weapons on the backs of starving people and killed tens of millions of its own citizens over its 70 year history. So far Putin hasn't slaughtered tens of millions of Russians.

 

[LoAmmi]

"after the USSR had made so much progress."

?!

The USSR went bankrupt building weapons and killed tens of millions of its own citizens over its 70 year history.

Yeah, but, I heard the trains ran on time.

 

[Dialogist]

O.k., I didn't mean to offend anybody, but I think delusional disorder is a plausible explanation for people who think they are divinely inspired. Many people don't understand delusional disorder, because they think all people with psychosis are obvious. I didn't know much about psychosis until my therapist told me that I had delusional disorder. That is why I learned about it. I don't think it was an accurate diagnosis, but I had something similar.

Many, many people who think they are divinely inspired are definitely deluded.

 

[seekingsolace]

Many, many people who think they are divinely inspired are definitely deluded.

mmm hmm sister, or brother

 

[Albion]

Yeah, but, I heard the trains ran on time.

That was Italy.

I doubt that the trains ever ran on time in the USSR.

Maybe cloudyday2 meant post-USSR Russia when he wrote "USSR." It would be very hard to argue, with evidence, that there was much progress under Communism in the days of the USSR.

 

[smaneck]

Maybe cloudyday2 meant post-USSR Russia when he wrote "USSR." It would be very hard to argue, with evidence, that there was much progress under Communism in the days of the USSR.

There was a lot of progress made as far building infrastructure. Not much in the way of consumer goods however.