Why is Western Europe atheist?

[cloudyday2]

It doesn't say that half are apathetic atheists, just that half don't think religion is important in their lives. My guess is that most of these people if pressed would say they believe in God.

Maybe, however, I suspect all the "nones" are simply on a path to atheism. Most people who leave Christianity experiment with other religions for a while before becoming increasingly apathetic and accepting atheism.

 

[fat wee robin]

IMO, some of it is driven by education and some of it is culturally driven.

There is a strong correlation, between the higher and better education one receives, the less chance of them holding religious beliefs.

Science knowledge, is the kryptonite of certain religious beliefs and science knowledge in the United States, is far below many other advanced countries in Europe and Scandanavia.

You mean "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing " .A little knowledge leads you away from God ,but great knowledge leads you back to Him ".

The US is the most advanced in science in the world ,the problem is the education for the majority like you is very low as Wisdom ,knowledge of the truth and real history is not taught there . However it is not taught in most education systems,as power is the motivation of most governments and the very rich .
You don't seem to advance since you are still quoting Einstein who rather detested atheists .UOTE="danny ski, post: 68521091, member: 322905"]European relationship with Christianity is a complicated one. For over thousand years, Christianity and political power were intertwined. One could make an easy case that religion was the major form of oppression. Rulers used religion to keep their subjects in line, popes(and later protestants) used the power of the state to achieve their goals. This caused endless social conflicts, poverty and very bloody wars. It is universally recognized among us(Europeans) that the dismantling of the papal influence and secularization in the 19th century were extremely positive steps toward free, just and prosperous society.[/QUOTE]

 

[fat wee robin]

European relationship with Christianity is a complicated one. For over thousand years, Christianity and political power were intertwined. One could make an easy case that religion was the major form of oppression. Rulers used religion to keep their subjects in line, popes(and later protestants) used the power of the state to achieve their goals. This caused endless social conflicts, poverty and very bloody wars. It is universally recognized among us(Europeans) that the dismantling of the papal influence and secularization in the 19th century were extremely positive steps toward free, just and prosperous society.

You mean like Marxism in the Soviet Union ,in China, Korea , Eastern Germany,in Eritrea, all these advanced free societies .
It is universally recognised that the RCC was responsible for the lifting of people out of anarchic paganism when the Roman empire fell ,that she created (from Ireland ) the first universities ,and even Einstein recognised that many of her Jesuits particularly ,were the early scientists ;Since the revolution in France, there has been
advancement in indvidual liberties, and practically none at all in 'great culture.

So tell me what have Lenin ,Marx and Freud ,all of Jewish roots, left as their fruits ?
Yes the RCC was totally wrong in her 'policies' in getting too involved in secular power
particularly in the 18TH and 19 TH centuries but,most of the governments which are creative are from the those who believe in God . Atheists, usually lefties create hardly anything ,but they redistribute the wealth ,and bring in reforms like (which I was in favour of) , the end of the death penalty, abortion , euthanasia, and same sex marriage
All very creative .
What you don't seem to understand is that christians know or should, that we are totally imperfect,but must seek to become better , individualists think that they are perfect already . On this basis alone ,they advance in the long term .

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Isn't "statism" an Objectivist term? You do know what Rand had to say about religion and god, don't you?

If you identify as Christian, yet object to people receiving medical care when they need it, then I'd say you are NOT a Christian, but a Scroogeian. Perhaps you'd be more at home in an Ayn Rand fanclub, because clearly, your convictions about everybody having to pull himself up by the bootstrings (without ever getting any help from you even if you have the means to provide it) is in clear violation of the gospel.

Self-sufficiency is all nice and well, but when you tell the starving, mentally unstable, homeless war veteran to "get a job" and walk on, perhaps you should go and re-read Matthew 25:44-46.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

In my country - as much as in yours - the state has long since become completely undermined by corporations and banks, who basically (sometimes literally) write policy to serve the interests of a monetary elite while the majority of the populace doesn't get any say any longer. There are few nations out there where the welfare state hasn't been deliberately sabotaged and dismantled over the course of the last thirty years, and most people are worse off because of it. People work full-time and yet do not make enough to feed their families, while their employers pocket BILLIONS of profit made from the work of exploited employees.

But that's not what a democratic state can and should be. Ideally speaking, the state is the representative of the people, protecting and upholding the interests and civil rights of *all* citizens - which also means protecting the powerless and disadvantaged from being exploited by the rich and powerful, protecting the environment from ruthless polluters, and providing all citizens with access to clean water, transportation, medical aid, and education (just to mention a few). If any of that becomes a privilege only accessible to the rich, we're right back to where we started in the dark ages.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Lab coat alert!!!


"They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy." (book of revelation)

 

[danny ski]

You mean like Marxism in the Soviet Union ,in China, Korea , Eastern Germany,in Eritrea, all these advanced free societies .
It is universally recognised that the RCC was responsible for the lifting of people out of anarchic paganism when the Roman empire fell ,that she created (from Ireland ) the first universities ,and even Einstein recognised that many of her Jesuits particularly ,were the early scientists ;Since the revolution in France, there has been
advancement in indvidual liberties, and practically none at all in 'great culture.

So tell me what have Lenin ,Marx and Freud ,all of Jewish roots, left as their fruits ?
Yes the RCC was totally wrong in her 'policies' in getting too involved in secular power
particularly in the 18TH and 19 TH centuries but,most of the governments which are creative are from the those who believe in God . Atheists, usually lefties create hardly anything ,but they redistribute the wealth ,and bring in reforms like (which I was in favour of) , the end of the death penalty, abortion , euthanasia, and same sex marriage
All very creative .
What you don't seem to understand is that christians know or should, that we are totally imperfect,but must seek to become better , individualists think that they are perfect already . On this basis alone ,they advance in the long term .

Actually, the rise of Marxism in the early 19th century was a direct answer to the European absolutism in a complex moment of history at the start of the industrial revolution. The Soviet revolution also did not happen in a vacuum. Russian absolutism had a very strong and regressive religious component. I am not blaming Leninism on religion, but religion in a pre-revolutionary Russia was a strong supporter of absolutism which kept masses in slavery(serfdom). Yes. one can say that religious influence was not all bad, but to what end? We can say that the RCC brought education and civilization to the pagans of the Americas. But at what price? The 17th and 18th century genocide of the natives by the Catholics and Protestants cannot be excused under any circumstances. BTW, Lenin was not a Jew.

 

[fat wee robin]

You mean like Marxism in the Soviet Union ,in China, Korea , Eastern Germany,in Eritrea, all these advanced free societies .
It is universally recognised that the RCC was responsible for the lifting of people out of anarchic paganism when the Roman empire fell ,that she created (from Ireland ) the first universities ,and even Einstein recognised that many of her Jesuits particularly ,were the early scientists ;Since the revolution in France, there has been
advancement in indvidual liberties, and practically none at all in 'great culture.

So tell me what have Lenin ,Marx and Freud ,all of Jewish roots, left as their fruits ?
Yes the RCC was totally wrong in her 'policies' in getting too involved in secular power
particularly in the 18TH and 19 TH centuries but,most of the governments which are creative are from the those who believe in God . Atheists, usually lefties create hardly anything ,but they redistribute the wealth ,and bring in reforms like (which I was in favour of) , the end of the death penalty, abortion , euthanasia, and same sex marriage
All very creative .
What you don't seem to understand is that christians know or should, that we are totally imperfect,but must seek to become better , individualists think that they are perfect already . On this basis alone ,they advance in the long term .

PS I do not defend the RCC, but Christianity in it's original form .No one is perfect and neither are christians . I am defending it , against Atheism and Satanism, there are so many on this site .

 

[bhsmte]

You mean "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing " .A little knowledge leads you away from God ,but great knowledge leads you back to Him ".

The US is the most advanced in science in the world ,the problem is the education for the majority like you is very low as Wisdom ,knowledge of the truth and real history is not taught there . However it is not taught in most education systems,as power is the motivation of most governments and the very rich .
You don't seem to advance since you are still quoting Einstein who rather detested atheists .UOTE="danny ski, post: 68521091, member: 322905"]European relationship with Christianity is a complicated one. For over thousand years, Christianity and political power were intertwined. One could make an easy case that religion was the major form of oppression. Rulers used religion to keep their subjects in line, popes(and later protestants) used the power of the state to achieve their goals. This caused endless social conflicts, poverty and very bloody wars. It is universally recognized among us(Europeans) that the dismantling of the papal influence and secularization in the 19th century were extremely positive steps toward free, just and prosperous society.

[/QUOTE]

Nope, not what I meant.

 

[Zoness]

PS I do not defend the RCC, but Christianity in it's original form .No one is perfect and neither are christians . I am defending it , against Atheism and Satanism, there are so many on this site .

Who here is a Satanist? Name specific usernames and reasons why, please.

The US is the most advanced in science in the world ,the problem is the education for the majority like you is very low as Wisdom ,knowledge of the truth and real history is not taught there . However it is not taught in most education systems,as power is the motivation of most governments and the very rich .
You don't seem to advance since you are still quoting Einstein who rather detested atheists .

I'm not sure what you're saying here, I'm assuming English is not your first language? Wisdom is a somewhat arbitrary concept that is gained often through personal experience and insight and can't be taught in any formal sense so of course it wouldn't make sense to be the foundation of any sort of education system.

Additionally I'm not sure what Einstein's opinion of Atheists has to do with the discussion; plus your claims on his position would need to be backed up with proof anyways.

 

[bhsmte]

Who here is a Satanist? Name specific usernames and reasons why, please.



I'm not sure what you're saying here, I'm assuming English is not your first language? Wisdom is a somewhat arbitrary concept that is gained often through personal experience and insight and can't be taught in any formal sense so of course it wouldn't make sense to be the foundation of any sort of education system.

Additionally I'm not sure what Einstein's opinion of Atheists has to do with the discussion; plus your claims on his position would need to be backed up with proof anyways.

Well stated.

In standardized science tests, Americans do not do well compared to other advanced countries. This is likely a combination of poor education in science and or personal faith beliefs which require certain science to be denied, which was my point.

Einstein left the door open to a non personal God, but his opinion on personal Gods was quite clear, he thought belief in personal Gods was "childish".

 

[Eudaimonist]

Isn't "statism" an Objectivist term?

Statism is a term that Objectivists and libertarians have used before, but Ayn Rand did not coin the term as far as I know. The term has currency outside of Objectivist and libertarian circles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[smaneck]

Maybe, however, I suspect all the "nones" are simply on a path to atheism. Most people who leave Christianity experiment with other religions for a while before becoming increasingly apathetic and accepting atheism.

Being apathetic and being atheistic are very different things. There is a significant population that believes in God and simply has no interest in organized religion. I would say that in this country more people who fit into this category end up becoming Baha'is than from any other category..

 

[smaneck]

Who here is a Satanist? Name specific usernames and reasons why, please.

Yeah, that is a serious charge which unless proven amounts to slander.

 

[smaneck]

So tell me what have Lenin ,Marx and Freud ,all of Jewish roots, left as their fruits ?

By that logic we should blame Hitler on the Catholic Church. Indeed there is more justification for that.

Atheists, usually lefties create hardly anything ,but they redistribute the wealth ,and bring in reforms like (which I was in favour of) , the end of the death penalty, abortion , euthanasia, and same sex marriage
All very creative .

You do realize that Ayn Rand, the darling of the right, was an atheist? Redistributing wealth, on the other hand, is biblical.

What you don't seem to understand is that christians know or should, that we are totally imperfect,but must seek to become better , individualists think that they are perfect already .

You do realize that lefties aren't individualists?

 

[smaneck]

European relationship with Christianity is a complicated one. For over thousand years, Christianity and political power were intertwined. One could make an easy case that religion was the major form of oppression. Rulers used religion to keep their subjects in line, popes(and later protestants) used the power of the state to achieve their goals. This caused endless social conflicts, poverty and very bloody wars. It is universally recognized among us(Europeans) that the dismantling of the papal influence and secularization in the 19th century were extremely positive steps toward free, just and prosperous society.

Except religion and state are still not as completely separate in Europe as they are in the US. For instance, in Germany churches are state supported and children are taught religion by ministers in the public schools. Only 5% of the population can be found in church on Sunday, yet all the stores are closed. No one in Germany goes to see a pastor for counselling like they do in the US. For Germans the church is an institution where you are married and buried. For Americans it is often the center of their community life.

 

[danny ski]

Except religion and state are still not as completely separate in Europe as they are in the US. For instance, in Germany churches are state supported and children are taught religion by ministers in the public schools. Only 5% of the population can be found in church on Sunday, yet all the stores are closed. No one in Germany goes to see a pastor for counselling like they do in the US. For Germans the church is an institution where you are married and buried. For Americans it is often the center of their community life.

That's because what's left of the church's role is cultural and traditional, rather than religious. In the end it adds up to the same-a quaint tradition, but nothing to lose your head over.

 

[smaneck]

That's because what's left of the church's role is cultural and traditional, rather than religious. In the end it adds up to the same-a quaint tradition, but nothing to lose your head over.

Partly. But my point is that the church plays a huge social role in America which it doesn't have in Europe and I'm suggesting that this is in part because Americans feel free to chose between churches. Their voluntary nature makes them an important part of civil society here.

 

[cloudyday2]

Being apathetic and being atheistic are very different things. There is a significant population that believes in God and simply has no interest in organized religion. I would say that in this country more people who fit into this category end up becoming Baha'is than from any other category..

Yes, I also meant to mention Paganism/Wicca. Those seem to be the most popular alternatives for US ex-Christians who desire religion (based on my informal observations). I don't know why Paganism doesn't show up on the Pew Forum religious landscape survey. I wonder if many of them identify as "none" instead of Pagan?

 

[Albion]

Why did atheism flourish in Western Europe? The UK and the US are similar in many ways. Many of the US fundamentalist and evangelical groups began in the UK. Much culture is shared (music, literature, ...). Yet the UK is not very religious today (aside from immigrants from Muslim countries).

I have wondered if the USSR may have helped to promote atheism in Western Europe as part of the Cold War. Some people have told me that the US has always been more religious than Europe, so it has simply taken longer for atheism to catch-on in the US. Others have mentioned that WW2 was so dreadful that many Europeans decided God must not exist. (This was apparently a problem in Judaism after WW2.)

The growth of atheism in Europe apparently began in the 1960s. I assume there was a baby boom generation reaching maturity as happened in the US. In the US, the baby boomers investigated new religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age, etc. Other baby boomers investigated new Christian denominations like non-denominational, Evangelical, Charismatic. For some reason atheism was more attractive in Western Europe than it was in the US.

Any thoughts?

Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Western Europe (most of it, that is) is "post-Christian" rather than "Atheist."