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Why is Western Europe atheist?

cloudyday2

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Why did atheism flourish in Western Europe? The UK and the US are similar in many ways. Many of the US fundamentalist and evangelical groups began in the UK. Much culture is shared (music, literature, ...). Yet the UK is not very religious today (aside from immigrants from Muslim countries).

I have wondered if the USSR may have helped to promote atheism in Western Europe as part of the Cold War. Some people have told me that the US has always been more religious than Europe, so it has simply taken longer for atheism to catch-on in the US. Others have mentioned that WW2 was so dreadful that many Europeans decided God must not exist. (This was apparently a problem in Judaism after WW2.)

The growth of atheism in Europe apparently began in the 1960s. I assume there was a baby boom generation reaching maturity as happened in the US. In the US, the baby boomers investigated new religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age, etc. Other baby boomers investigated new Christian denominations like non-denominational, Evangelical, Charismatic. For some reason atheism was more attractive in Western Europe than it was in the US.

Any thoughts?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Very different religious cultures I think. The US in a lot of ways is a nation whose earliest years were shaped by religious refugees from Europe. There were also significant religious enthusiasm movements that spread throughout the US at different times, very noticeably the First and Second Great Awakenings as they are called. In the 20th century the US saw a resurgence of religious enthusiasm in the form of the Neo-Evangelical Movement (30's and 40's) and the Jesus Movement (60's and 70's).

So the observation is largely a result of religious culture in the US vs religious culture in the UK and Europe. The shape of religious culture had very different social and political forces molding it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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RC1970

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I took a course in Sociology in college. It was the most boring thing I ever had to endure. Never once did they consider that humans are just down right wicked.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" ~ Jeremiah 17:9
 
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LoAmmi

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I took a course in Sociology in college. It was the most boring thing I ever had to endure. Never once did they consider that humans are just down right wicked.

Because available scientific evidence wouldn't bear out that "humans are just down right wicked" they probably didn't consider it since they are scientists.
 
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cloudyday2

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Very different religious cultures I think. The US in a lot of ways is a nation whose earliest years were shaped by religious refugees from Europe. There were also significant religious enthusiasm movements that spread throughout the US at different times, very noticeably the First and Second Great Awakenings as they are called. In the 20th century the US saw a resurgence of religious enthusiasm in the form of the Neo-Evangelical Movement (30's and 40's) and the Jesus Movement (60's and 70's).

So the observation is largely a result of religious culture in the US vs religious culture in the UK and Europe. The shape of religious culture had very different social and political forces molding it.

-CryptoLutheran
I wonder if the difference is fundamentalism? If we suddenly changed every fundamentalist or evangelical into an atheist, would America look like Europe? Fundamentalism formed as a reaction against modernism. Apparently fundamentalism didn't gain as much traction in Europe, so Europeans were forced to confront modernism without the simple verities of fundamentalism as a defense. Belief is not so central to Catholicism and the more liturgical styles of Christianity, so they are not as threatened by modernism.

Here is a link to "The Fundamentals". Almost every point is a reaction to modernism IMO:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals
 
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cloudyday2

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LoAmmi

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“It is customary to blame secular science and anti-religious philosophy for the eclipse of religion in modern society. It would be more honest to blame religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, dull, oppressive, insipid. When faith is completely replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit; when the crisis of today is ignored because of the splendor of the past; when faith becomes an heirloom rather than a living fountain; when religion speaks only in the name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion--its message becomes meaningless.”
― Abraham Joshua Heschel, God in Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism
 
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ViaCrucis

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I wonder if the difference is fundamentalism? If we suddenly changed every fundamentalist or evangelical into an atheist, would America look like Europe? Fundamentalism formed as a reaction against modernism. Apparently fundamentalism didn't gain as much traction in Europe, so Europeans were forced to confront modernism without the simple verities of fundamentalism as a defense. Belief is not so central to Catholicism and the more liturgical styles of Christianity, so they are not as threatened by modernism.

Here is a link to "The Fundamentals". Almost every point is a reaction to modernism IMO:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals

I think there's a fair point to be made here about Fundamentalism in the US. Though I would point out that belief is certainly central to both Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Mainline Protestants. When we look at Mainline Protestantism we can see different ways in which the Mainline churches engaged with modernity as compared with Fundamentalism. Where Fundamentalism challenged modernity in its own way here in the US, there was in the early 20th century something else that transpired in European theology, one of the most important being Swiss Reformed theologian Karl Barth. Barth's challenge to the prevailing Liberalism was not about a hoisting up the barricades and asserting rigid propositionalism (as Fundamentalism had done). Out of Barth and several others came what is known as Neo-Orthodoxy, and with Reinhold Niebuhr as a major Neo-Orthodox player on the American scene. So the Mainline tradition's engagement with modernity was less a fierce battle going on the offensive or defensive, but instead an engagement with modernity and the pursuit of Christian confession in the modern world. Modernity wasn't "the enemy" but a cultural force that needed to be engaged with, with Christians seeking how to engage their faith in the modern world. Liberalism and Neo-Orthodoxy have been significant forces in the Mainline Protestant churches, and the two are not exactly best friends, but the result of this has largely been a much more cordial relationship with the modern world, with forces of social progress, and the scientific community.

This has also meant more things:

1) Fundamentalists and the Neo-Evangelicals (more-so now than in the past I'd reckon) regard the Mainline traditions which had a more open engagement and cordial relationship with modern culture as abandoning or rejecting the faith. Creating an animosity that has resulted in denominational divisions, as well as vitriolic rhetoric from the particularly loud.

2) The Mainline churches, unlike the Fundamentalist/Neo-Evangelical churches haven't had the major influence of Pietism and Revivalism and thus have largely never been the sorts of churches from which you'll find people going to stand on street corners shouting at passers-by that they need to get saved. This means a couple other things, the Mainline hasn't invested in a sort of evangelistic activity that is largely antagonistic, both to other Christian traditions or to non-Christians more generally; you will therefore likely find fewer Mainliners who are in the business of telling other Christians they aren't really Christians or trying to make other Christians leave their church and join theirs with all the usual threats of hellfire, damnation, and salvific exclusivity (e.g. "you need to leave your dead church because you were baptized as an infant which really doesn't matter, you need a personal relationship with Jesus, and you need to be on fire and be telling everyone else about Jesus right now, do you really want to be responsible for your friends and family going to hell?")

American Mainliners are probably going to not be fundamentally much different than their European counterparts, while both are going to be quite different from American-style Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism.

It seems very often that Evangelical-style devotedness represents a more "serious" faith. I have on several occasions had people remark that I don't seem all that devout--which puzzles me. I consider myself very devout and take my faith very seriously. The real difference seems to be that my devotion doesn't look as flamboyant as, say, the Fundagelical crowd's. So what "looks" like fervent devotion to many outside the Church is most likely simply their observation of the way Fundamentalists and Evangelicals "do" devotion. At my church we don't see much reason to clap unless the children put on a production. Whereas applause is a fairly regular expression of devotion and faith during Evangelical styles of worship. It may therefore seem as though we're less enthusiastic or excited about worship, but that isn't the case at all.

These are all things that I think contribute to the current landscape of American Christianity.

There is a tendency to sound the alarm among some, there's this idea that Christianity is "dying" in Europe. As though there'll be a point in the near future when people won't be going to church or that people won't be Christian in Europe. To be perfectly honest I don't think that's realistic. Christianity may be shrinking, but not dying. I very much doubt that the churches in Europe will one day suddenly be completely empty. I do not come from a point of view that Christianity's strength is in its numbers. There was, at one point, a time when Christianity was nothing more than a little more than a dozen men and women hanging out in Jerusalem for about week. So the numbers game seems, to me, rather trivial. I think what we'll see is simply that the people who stay and keep the churches filled are the people who want to be there. Christian numbers may be shrinking in some places and in some ways, not Christian faithfulness though. I don't think that's going anywhere. I don't see Europe and think a place where faith is dying. It just looks different sometimes than what faith in America looks like; and the fact that many who grow up in the Church leave isn't new, that's always been something that's happened (though in times past there were, perhaps, social and political structures which may have hampered departure from the Church).

There's a parable that Jesus offers about seed sown, in some cases the seed begins to take root but is burned out by the hot sun, in some cases the seed is immediately plucked away by birds, in some cases the seed takes root and grows but is later choked out by thorns and weeds, and then there are cases where the seed takes root and grows and flourishes. Sometimes people grow up and then don't believe any longer, sometimes they just never believe, sometimes they believe for a time and then no longer believe. There are all sorts of scenarios that are out of anyone's hands, but then there there are people, and there always are people, who believe and will continue to believe. All such things are in God's hands, not anyone else's.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SinnerInTheHands

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Many of the US fundamentalist and evangelical groups began in the UK.

Not really. You could count the Puritans, but most of Evangelicalism and U.S. Fundamentalism arose out of the Great Awakenings.
 
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cloudyday2

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Somewhat related is this link from Pew Forum. In the US from 2007 to 2014, most of the reduction in Christian population has occurred in the Mainline Protestant and Catholic categories. The Evangelical Protestant category has mostly resisted these losses. This makes sense to me, because Fundamentalism was designed to resist modernity. In the future, the US population might be 75% none and 25% Evangelical with no other forms of Christianity of significance.

Sorry, here is the link:
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/
 
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MehGuy

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Pop culture?

While the answer may seem silly I do think popular media has a big impact on the society that consumes it (both good and bad).

I may be mistaken but hasn't comedy and television shows in western european countries been more risque and more daring and critical religion for a while? While more people in the US claim to be religious, I do not believe religion is important for the vast majority of people.

A thought provoking sitcom or comedy may help them take that one step towards being non-religious.
 
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awitch

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I may be mistaken but hasn't comedy and television shows in western european countries been more risque and more daring and critical religion for a while? While more people in the US claim to be religious, I do not believe religion is important for the vast majority of people.

A thought provoking sitcom or comedy may help them take that one step towards being non-religious.

I think there's some truth to that. They giggled at the religious humor in Monty Python's Flying Circus in the UK, but here in the US religious people want to boycott a network and all of a show's sponsors if a character is gay.
 
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fat wee robin

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I took a course in Sociology in college. It was the most boring thing I ever had to endure. Never once did they consider that humans are just down right wicked.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" ~ Jeremiah 17:9
Well although we are all marked by the fall ,some are more wicked than others ,and I don't believe as some do that all sins are equal ;Sometimes christians are so illogical;
I think God is waiting for us / them to join the dots .
 
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Robban

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Why did atheism flourish in Western Europe? The UK and the US are similar in many ways. Many of the US fundamentalist and evangelical groups began in the UK. Much culture is shared (music, literature, ...). Yet the UK is not very religious today (aside from immigrants from Muslim countries).

I have wondered if the USSR may have helped to promote atheism in Western Europe as part of the Cold War. Some people have told me that the US has always been more religious than Europe, so it has simply taken longer for atheism to catch-on in the US. Others have mentioned that WW2 was so dreadful that many Europeans decided God must not exist. (This was apparently a problem in Judaism after WW2.)

The growth of atheism in Europe apparently began in the 1960s. I assume there was a baby boom generation reaching maturity as happened in the US. In the US, the baby boomers investigated new religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age, etc. Other baby boomers investigated new Christian denominations like non-denominational, Evangelical, Charismatic. For some reason atheism was more attractive in Western Europe than it was in the US.

Any thoughts?

It may not be so athiest as claimed.

Could be that the threat of being thrown into flames for eternity does not work today.

To sin is not good,
to get others to sin is worse,
to get a whole nation to sin, is curtains..

Is it a sin to threaten people with something that one is not certain exists even?

Lake of fire, burn, why not burn of shame?
Who will stand there with shame, if not those who were wrong but told others they were right.

Well, to think you are right but you are wrong, is one thing, you were simply wrong.
But to make others lives miserable, is not good.
 
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fat wee robin

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I think there's some truth to that. They giggled at the religious humor in Monty Python's Flying Circus in the UK, but here in the US religious people want to boycott a network and all of a show's sponsors if a character is gay.
There are different nations in the UK ;England has an individualist materialistic culture as opposed to Scotland and Wales which were ,still are more towards others and cooperation ,especially the Celts ;Edinburgh was protestant and very cold and
materialistic as opposed to the West coast ,which was until John Knox, mainly catholic/Celtic .
Americans are largely ignorant of history of their roots as many here are too ,but we have more wisdom as we are older .
Outward shows of religion are less prévalent in Europe as we have had religious and other wars ,and after the last war the Jews mainly decided that to talk about Religion in public was dangerous, however most people in France believe in God ,and the 'evangelist' type of large meetings is growing quite a bit in large towns ;The RCC is still the most common religion ,but is often only for weddings ,christenings and funerals.
I am a christian of deep conviction, from an RCC background ,but freedom to practice as one wishes must be upheld ,as there are a few who would like to go back to a theocracy but I would fight that .
 
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fat wee robin

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Pop culture?

While the answer may seem silly I do think popular media has a big impact on the society that consumes it (both good and bad).

I may be mistaken but hasn't comedy and television shows in western european countries been more risque and more daring and critical religion for a while? While more people in the US claim to be religious, I do not believe religion is important for the vast majority of people.

A thought provoking sitcom or comedy may help them take that one step towards being non-religious.
Both England and the States are more shallow in their culture ,than Europe ,so there is a lot of noise but not a lot of substance ,however before I get 'hit' by someone, I think too, that there are some truly wonderful things that only 'Ameriky' has produced ,like this site ,the internet and much more .:swoon::tutu:^_^^_^
 
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MehGuy

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I think there's some truth to that. They giggled at the religious humor in Monty Python's Flying Circus in the UK, but here in the US religious people want to boycott a network and all of a show's sponsors if a character is gay.

Well the 70s did have a slew of Norman Lear sitcoms. They dealt with issues like homosexuality and atheism. Although the atheist subjects were mostly soft balled. The messages were mainly that atheists were human too and not soulless monsters.

One good show I liked from the 70s was The Waltons. While the show is featured on some Christian channels and marketed as a good wholesome Christian show, ironically the show tackled some issues about organized religion in a negative light. There was even an episode that featured a creationist who was portrayed as a fool and who eventually died in a fire and no one in the town seemed to care, lol. I never saw the Christian channels air that episode, lol.

As far as Monty Python, I remember reading a story about how they received hate mail from some conservative person telling them that there was a homosexual in their cast and that according to the Bible homosexuals should be put to death. The Monty Python team responded with a letter saying "Thank you for the tip, we've weeded out the homosexual and have killed him". Lol.
 
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TheNorwegian

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There is a wide variety in how Atheist or Religious people are in Western Europe, it's not all the same in every country. However, it is true that Europe is more Atheist than the US. I believe many factors are behind this: Liberal theology, two world wars, influence of Socialism in Western Europe and dominance of Communism in Central Europe (East Germany, Czech Republic).

One person told me "In the US you will say you go to church even if you don't - in Europe you will say you do not go to church, even if you do"
 
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