Sexism and Religion

[Jane_the_Bane]

As virtually all established religions originated after the agrarian and before the industrial revolution, it does not come as much of a surprise that they reflect the moral and cultural norms of an era that revolved around land ownership, chains of succession, and the repression and controlling of female sexuality. Even Buddhism, which might look like a perfect candidate for a more egalitarian stance, was deeply enmeshed in sexual politics since day one, reflecting the mores of the society around it.

What we need to keep in mind in this context is that sexism - like racism - is first and foremost based on the assumption of a fundamental and essential difference between the postulated categories. "Jews are weak intellectuals, Africans are naive athletes." "Men cannot express feelings. Women are gushing with emotion."
This difference informs the sexists' perception of the world and their own place within it.

Now, the question is: can religions that are so deeply rooted in the past adapt to a new era - and do they even intend to do so? Since many of them regard their texts as timeless revelations, and since these texts are so fundamentally rooted in bygone ages, I wonder if a "transplant" is possible.

 

[awitch]

I wouldn't bet on it.

And I predict "Men and women are equal, but have different roles..." in the next few posts

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I predict "Men and women are equal, but have different roles..." in the next few posts

Yeah, but that's sexism in a nutshell.

"Whites and negroes are equal, but different."

 

[Robban]

I wouldn't bet on it.

And I predict "Men and women are equal, but have different roles..." in the next few posts

They were created equal but as it turns out women get pregnant men don,t.

You could say, "That,s the way the mop flops."

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, I don't buy into some idea that men and women aren't different in many ways. Some things just are such as men tending to be stronger without even having to work at it. I remember reading somewhere that women tend to have a much better sense of smell. This isn't sexism, it's differences between sexes.

However, religions do evolve. Fundamentalists don't, but my own religion has the Conservative movement which moves more toward equality of the sexes and the Reform movement that I doubt sees much of a difference. Christianity has similar sects.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

They were created equal but as it turns out women get pregnant men don,t.

You could say, "That,s the way the mop flops."

Also, Caucasians are at a much greater risk of getting sunburn than Africans, and Asians cannot properly digest cow's milk.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Well, I don't buy into some idea that men and women aren't different in many ways. Some things just are such as men tending to be stronger without even having to work at it. I remember reading somewhere that women tend to have a much better sense of smell. This isn't sexism, it's differences between sexes.

See my reply to Robban above. The question is not so much of whether there are differences between different people (there are), but whether these differences actually justify the fundamental Difference espoused by ideologies. Gender and race operate almost identically in this regard, constructing narrow identities.

Yes, male athletes will outcompete female athletes - just as African athletes will fare better than Caucasian ones in certain disciplines. Does that merit the kind of fundamental distinction we see in far too many places? Of course not.

 

[LoAmmi]

See my reply to Robban above. The question is not so much of whether there are differences between different people (there are), but whether these differences actually justify the fundamental Difference espoused by ideologies. Gender and race operate almost identically in this regard, constructing narrow identities.

Yes, male athletes will outcompete female athletes - just as African athletes will fare better than Caucasian ones in certain disciplines. Does that merit the kind of fundamental distinction we see in far too many places? Of course not.

You cut off the rest of what I said. I don't think it does justify it. Now, I know the Torah has some different laws for women and men, most of them due to menstruation causing someone to become ritually impure until they visit the mikvah, but I don't see that as being an equality issue. In fact, most of the time people point out sexism in Judaism, it's a result of tradition that can be changed rather than what's in the text. Although, the sexism in the text tends to be countered with tradition.

We're complicated.

I have encountered some radical feminists, though, that try to tell me there's NO DIFFERENCE between sexes and that any we point out are myths. I suppose they don't have wombs.

 

[Robban]

Also, Caucasians are at a much greater risk of getting sunburn than Africans, and Asians cannot properly digest cow's milk.

I thought you were talking about "roles".
A story,
A mother came to the Rebbe and asked if she should become a typist,
the family needed some extra cash.

The Rebbe replied,
If she needed to type because the family needed extra cash, then type.
But don,t become a typist, you are a mother.

 

[grasping the after wind]

The question I have is if religions are basically sexist to the detriment of females why are there so many more woman than men that attend worship services in Christian churches? I have no knowledge of the other religions' demographic break downs so I do not know if this is a universal phenomenon or only a Christian thing but it seems to me that, at least in Christianity, women tend to be more interested in participating in religious practices than men. Thus my question. As it would seem to be that the opposite ought to be true that the ones benefiting from the sexism ought to be the more enthusiast supporters while the ones being oppressed by it ought to be running away from it I am curious to know what everyone thinks the reason why the current the situation that exists differs from what one would expect.

 

[LoAmmi]

The question I have is if religions are basically sexist to the detriment of females why are there so many more woman than men that attend worship services in Christian churches? I have no knowledge of the other religions' demographic break downs so I do not know if this is a universal phenomenon or only a Christian thing but it seems to me that, at least in Christianity, women tend to be more interested in participating in religious practices than men. Thus my question. As it would seem to be that the opposite ought to be true that the ones benefiting from the sexism ought to be the more enthusiast supporters while the ones being oppressed by it ought to be running away from it I am curious to know what everyone thinks the reason why the current the situation that exists differs from what one would expect.

If you believe it's what the being you believe to be the most wise and powerful wants you to do, it's easy to see why you'd do it. People have volunteered for human sacrifice in the past because they believed it was the right thing to do. Not saying Christianity is sexist or not, just pointing out the flaw in your logic.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I can't really reply for the radical feminists you spoke to, but there's a chance that they might have tried to communicate the kind of idea I shared above:
See, some feminists feel that distinguishing between "sex" (the biological dimension) and "gender" (the socio-cultural construct) is already going too far; to them, it's basically the equivalent of saying there's valid racism (intelligent Jews, athletic Africans) and invalid racism (KKK). The moment you construct the kind of fundamental chasm between people, stereotyping them on account of some physical characteristics, you've already crossed the line.
I'm not sure whether I agree completely with them, but I see where they are coming from. If you told an African that it's his natural role in life to be an athlete rather than an academic, that'd be pretty offensive - but tell a woman that her "natural role" is to stay home and raise the kids, and all of a sudden it's socially acceptable.

 

[LoAmmi]

I can't really reply for the radical feminists you spoke to, but there's a chance that they might have tried to communicate the kind of idea I shared above:
See, some feminists feel that distinguishing between "sex" (the biological dimension) and "gender" (the socio-cultural construct) is already going too far; to them, it's basically the equivalent of saying there's valid racism (intelligent Jews, athletic Africans) and invalid racism (KKK). The moment you construct the kind of fundamental chasm between people, stereotyping them on account of some physical characteristics, you've already crossed the line.
I'm not sure whether I agree completely with them, but I see where they are coming from. If you told an African that it's his natural role in life to be an athlete rather than an academic, that'd be pretty offensive - but tell a woman that her "natural role" is to stay home and raise the kids, and all of a sudden it's socially acceptable.

Oh no, they literally claimed that men and women are exactly identical in terms of things like physical strength and called me a terrible misogynist for stating that was factually incorrect.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The question I have is if religions are basically sexist to the detriment of females why are there so many more woman than men that attend worship services in Christian churches? I have no knowledge of the other religions' demographic break downs so I do not know if this is a universal phenomenon or only a Christian thing but it seems to me that, at least in Christianity, women tend to be more interested in participating in religious practices than men. Thus my question. As it would seem to be that the opposite ought to be true that the ones benefiting from the sexism ought to be the more enthusiast supporters while the ones being oppressed by it ought to be running away from it I am curious to know what everyone thinks the reason why the current the situation that exists differs from what one would expect.

Traditional female socialization tends to emphasize conformity and submission, avoiding conflicts and following rules.
Accordingly, they are less likely to break the mold.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Oh no, they literally claimed that men and women are exactly identical in terms of things like physical strength and called me a terrible misogynist for stating that was factually incorrect.

Okay, then you've simply bumped into the crazies. I bet they were also TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists), who on the one hand assert that sex is just a social fiction, but then go on to say that trans-women are just costumed men who can never be REAL women.

 

[LoAmmi]

Okay, then you've simply bumped into the crazies. I bet they were also TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists), who on the one hand assert that sex is just a social fiction, but then go on to say that trans-women are just costumed men who can never be REAL women.

Yeah, and sadly they were my wife's friends and it kind of drove a wedge between people. The funny thing, to me, is that they said that but then went on to say that they were afraid of all men because men rape women by overpowering them. It was like... if strength is the same, how are men overpowering them?

 

[grasping the after wind]

If you believe it's what the being you believe to be the most wise and powerful wants you to do, it's easy to see why you'd it. People have volunteered for human sacrifice in the past because they believed it was the right thing to do. Not saying Christianity is sexist or not, just pointing out the flaw in your logic.

I fail to see any logical point of mine that you are addressing and at first reading it seems to me that you have simply made some irrelevant remark that has nothing to do with my question. My question assumes that all religions are basically sexist against females as that is the premise of the OP. With that as a given, I asked why female Christians are many times more likely to be involved in the religious activities of the Christian religion than male Christians when it would seem to be an unlikely consequence of the given stated. Is it your contention then that only females would be effected by wanting to do what their deity instructs and males somehow do not have the same desire to do so?

 

[LoAmmi]

Deleted.

 

[LoAmmi]

I fail to see any logical point of mine that you are addressing and at first reading it seems to me that you have simply made some irrelevant remark that has nothing to do with my question. My question assumes that all religions are basically sexist against females as that is the premise of the OP. With that as a given, I asked why female Christians are many times more likely to be involved in the religious activities of the Christian religion than male Christians when it would seem to be an unlikely consequence of the given stated. Is it your contention then that only females would be effected by wanting to do what their deity instructs and males somehow do not have the same desire to do so?

Women are more likely to be involved in social activities then men are. It's this tends to thing again.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Traditional female socialization tends to emphasize conformity and submission, avoiding conflicts and following rules.
Accordingly, they are less likely to break the mold.

That could explain the women but actually sounds somewhat sexist as it sort of makes female Christians out to be masochistic , docile and accepting of the role of an inferior. In my experience, Christian women do not tend to be at all like that but I appreciate your opinion may differ from mine on that as we have different experiences to draw from. What about the males. Why are they reticent to be involved with something that gives them the upper hand over females?