Is God the "first cause of everything" (including sin) as the Westminster Confession says?

[FreeGrace2]

Would you say God is not the 1st cause of everything ? That He is the "first responder" ?

Neither.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is God the first cause of ALL that comes to pass.. or only the good and holy things ?

God is the first cause and only cause of the heavens and earth. He created the universe and all that is in it.

He didn't create automobiles. He created mankind, with the ability to create automobiles. See the difference?

 

[rnmomof7]

Neither.

So what is He ?passive observer ?

 

[EmSw]

Did you miss the pasting of chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession of Faith?
I'll reiterate and add chapter 4.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

CHAPTER IV.
Of Creation.
I. It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for the manifestation of the glory of his eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, in the beginning, to create or make of nothing the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good.

II. After God had made all other creatures, he created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness after his own image, having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfill it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change. Besides this law written in their hearts, they received a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; which while they kept were happy in their communion with God, and had dominion over the creatures.

Did you miss the questions I asked? Care to answer them?

 

[Butch5]

Since this thread is going this far in page length and no one has apparently thought to correct the first error in the pronouncement of this threads topic of discussion, I figured this would be a good time to start. It should bring the issue to a close rather quickly. Since we can't actually discuss the why's of something that is not actually true.

The Westminster Confession of Faith does not say God is the first cause of sin. In fact it states just the opposite.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

That statement is a contradiction.

 

[rnmomof7]

God is the first cause and only cause of the heavens and earth. He created the universe and all that is in it.

He didn't create automobiles. He created mankind, with the ability to create automobiles. See the difference?

What Arminians fall to appreciate is that the circumstances that lead to great actions or inventions were all set in motion by God.. they were not co incidental , accidents or "good fortune".... all these things are planned and coordinated by God..

He is the first cause...man is the 2nd





Isa 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'


Isa 14:24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will happen.

Acts 4;27 …26'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.…

 

[FreeGrace2]

So what is He ,passive observer ?

Huh? He's quite active in His creation. But no one has yet found any Scripture that says that He is the first cause of every event. And none of the verses in your long list said so either. So, why should one believe that He is the first cause? Based on what?

 

[Butch5]

In my not so humble opinion, like Festus of old, your "great learning is driving you mad".

I believe if it was you and not Nicodemus on the spot - Jesus would just shake His head and say, "You're a teacher on the internet and don't know these things?"

With that - I'll say that I disagree with you and leave it at that.

You may believe that, it is your prerogative. If you like you can look past mountains of evidence and hold to you opinion, that is your prerogative. I gave evidence for what I said. I've seen no evidence of spiritual death presented.

Here is something I found on Google. If you are at all interested in looking at the evidences for the singular reading here are a few things to consider. This is a clip from The divine sonship of Christians in the Johannine writings. It starts at the bottom of page 112. As you'll see there were quite a few who recognized the singular reading.

 

[Blank Stair]

That statement is a contradiction.

No, it is not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"God is the first cause and only cause of the heavens and earth. He created the universe and all that is in it.

He didn't create automobiles. He created mankind, with the ability to create automobiles. See the difference?"

What Arminians fall to appreciate is that the circumstances that lead to great actions or inventions were all set in motion by God.. they were not co incidental , accidents or "good fortune".... all these things are planned and coordinated by God..

Since my question wasn't answered, I'll take that as a "no, I don't see the difference". Well, there is a difference whether one sees it or not.

btw, "setting things in motion" doesn't mean first cause anyway.

He is the first cause...man is the 2nd

Your theory leads to the heresy that God is the first cause of sin. Heresy.

Isa 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'


Isa 14:24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will happen.

Acts 4;27 …26'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.…

Like that long list of verses, none of these say that He is the first cause of every event either.

 

[EmSw]

So what is He ?passive observer ?

Genesis 6:12
So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Psalm 102
18 This will be written for the generation to come, that a people yet to be created may praise the Lord.
19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary; from heaven the Lord viewed the earth,
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner, to release those appointed to death,

 

[Marvin Knox]

That statement is a contradiction.

No, it is not.

 

[Butch5]

I agree that when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus that is the being reborn of God, that Jesus is talking about. Being one of the many seeds of Abraham is not enough.

If we look at all men today as proselytes, to the vine, the Jews had a saying about proselytes, who converted to Judaism.

"one that is made a proselyte, כקטון שנולד דמי, "is like a child new born".''

T. Bab. Yebamot, fol. 22. 1. 48. 2. 62. 1. & 97. 2.

However, how were men born of God before Israel existed.

I agree that when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus that is the being reborn of God, that Jesus is talking about. Being one of the many seeds of Abraham is not enough.

If we look at all men today as proselytes, to the vine, the Jews had a saying about proselytes, who converted to Judaism.

"one that is made a proselyte, כקטון שנולד דמי, "is like a child new born".''

T. Bab. Yebamot, fol. 22. 1. 48. 2. 62. 1. & 97. 2.

However, how were men born of God before Israel existed.

Hi Hank,

I agree that the proselytes of old would be considered Jews. I don't know that that would apply to modern men as entering the New Covenant would be the first birth.

Regarding the men of old, I don't believe we're told about them.

 

[Butch5]

No, it is not.

Actually it is. One can't be the cause of all things, except one thing.

 

[Butch5]

No, it is not.

Yes, Marvin, it is. The Law of Non Contradiction states that two opposing statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. To say that God is the cause of all things and then say He is not the cause of sin is to say He is not the cause of all things. Thus we have a contradictory statement. God cannot be the cause of all things and not be the cause of all things at the same time.

 

[rnmomof7]

Huh? He's quite active in His creation. But no one has yet found any Scripture that says that He is the first cause of every event. And none of the verses in your long list said so either. So, why should one believe that He is the first cause? Based on what?

Well how is he active if He is not the first cause and not the first reactor?

 

[Blank Stair]

Actually it is. One can't be the cause of all things, except one thing.

That's not true.
You should read the WCF.

 

[rnmomof7]

I said this:
"God is the first cause and only cause of the heavens and earth. He created the universe and all that is in it.

He didn't create automobiles. He created mankind, with the ability to create automobiles. See the difference?"

Since my question wasn't answered, I'll take that as a "no, I don't see the difference". Well, there is a difference whether one sees it or not.

btw, "setting things in motion" doesn't mean first cause anyway.


Your theory leads to the heresy that God is the first cause of sin. Heresy.


Like that long list of verses, none of these say that He is the first cause of every event either.

God is the first cause of everything... Yes even what we call sin ... But what man means for evil God means of Good ...

 

[Blank Stair]

Well how is he active if He is not the first cause and not the first reactor?

You are arguing with someone that does not know that First Cause is a term for God.
They're telling you God is not the source of all that exists. And they are attempting to convince you, without any scripture to support that effort, that there is no scripture that proves God is the source of all that exists.

 

[EmSw]

You are arguing with someone that does not know that First Cause is a term for God.
They're telling you God is not the source of all that exists. And they are attempting to convince you, without any scripture to support that effort, that there is no scripture that proves God is the source of all that exists.

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Even when presented scripture that God is not the 'first cause' of everything, some refuse to believe. I have given this passage many times on this forum, and so far, no one has refuted it, nor commented on it. This passage is the death knell to the belief of God as the 'first cause' and 'predestination'.

You asked for scripture support, and here it is. Take it or leave it; use your freedom of choice to believe it or not. God will not interfere with your free-will decision.