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Is God the "first cause of everything" (including sin) as the Westminster Confession says?

Marvin Knox

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Scripture drives my interpretation not the other way around. I see quite a few who interpret Scripture through the lens of their theology. Actually, that probably a majority. I would submit that that is exactly where the "spiritual death" doctrine came from.
I - and probably the vast majority of Christians - see your interpretation as being much more bias and forced than the common interpretation concerning born again.

The same is true for your ideas on the John 1 passage we have discussed.

God luck on that lone wolf philosophy of yours. Berean attitudes are one thing. Lone wolf's quite another.

The doctrine that I hold is the common one that I outlined for you.

You can google to your heart's content and read a dozen presentations just as good as I could do.
 
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Butch5

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I - and probably the vast majority of Christians - see your interpretation as being much more bias and forced than the common interpretation concerning born again.

But you see, that's not relevant to the truth. Of course you see it as forced, it doesn't agree with what you've chosen to believe. The question is, does it fit the context of Scripture and the passage in general. The answer is, yes, it does. Do you now see why I say it's dangerous to form doctrine from inference? You claim that Jesus was referring to fallen man and spiritual death, both of these are inferences. I've read the account of Adam's sin and see nothing about him falling. It's a doctrine that people have created from inference.

Add to that that you have an unargued philosophical bias, spiritiual death. That idea is not taught anywhere in Scripture. It's inferred from a few passages. From these two inferences a whole theology has been built. Then, having these presuppositions people come to the text of John 3 and draw the conclusion that you have. In the process they completely miss what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus. Jesus didn't say anything about fallen man or spiritual death, yet that idea is imposed on the passage and thus the incorrect interpretation.

If you're going to hold to the idea of spiritual death, you should at least try to establish it from Scripture. If you did that you'd see that it's not there. However, by simply stating it, it's arbitrary. I could just as easily, and have, stated that there is no such thing as spiritual death. Errors in reasoning are in my opinion one of the biggest reasons that there is so much error in the church today, another is the false premise. The interpretation you gave starts with a false premise. Since it starts with a false premise it cannot come to correct conclusion via proper reasoning. And, the false premise is a conclusion drawn from inference, thus the dangers of drawing doctrines from inference.

You indicated that you thought my doctrines were based on what I wanted to believe. Isn't that exactly what your's are based on? You claim Jesus was referring to fallen man and Spiritual death, yet nothing like that is mentioned in the passage.

The same is true for your ideas on the John 1 passage we have discussed.

Well, their not my ideas. We have manuscript proof of the existence of the singular reading. We also have the historical evidence, and Tertullians refutation of Valentinus for his translating the passage in the plural. We have the earliest quotes in the referring to the singular reading. The first plural quote we have comes out of Alexandria which was a hotbed of Gnositicism. Your scholars are aware of this singular reading and anyone who want to research it can do so. There is more evidence than I've supplied here.

God luck on that lone wolf philosophy of yours. Berean attitudes are one thing. Lone wolf's quite another.

It's not a lone wolf approach, there are others who hold the same ideas. It's the follow the crowd mentality that leads people astray. What did Jesus say about the crowd?

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV)

The doctrine that I hold is the common one that I outlines.

You can google to your heart's content and read a dozen presentations just as good as I could do.

But again, this is a fallacy. An appeal to the majority proves nothing. It doesn't matter how many people believe something, it doesn't make it true. In the 1200's the majority of Christians held to the doctrine of Purgatory does that make it true?

You being Reformed should really see this point. Martin Luther who started the Reformation went against the majority. The whole Reformation movement was a rejection of the majority. Also, Reformed believers are not the majority in Christianity, so if you're going with the majority why are you Reformed? Isn't that being inconsistent?
 
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FreeGrace2

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The first of the possibilities you list is not a possibility since God did not program some to believe and some to reject the gospel. He didn't characterize what He did that way and you don't get to - unless it is written that way and you can provide a verse.
I was responding to a poster's question of WHY some believe and some don't. I certainly don't believe that God programs some to believe and others not to believe. But that is actually what some (a lot?) of Calvinists do believe, itseems.

It seems that you are putting words into the mouths of Calvinists and then asking them to take those words back. But they are your words not theirs.
There are only 2 possibilities of WHY people believe or not. That is a fact. Since no person can make another person believe something, then other than oneself, the only other possibility is God Himself.

And we do know that God does "put into the heart" certain ideas at certain times in certain people:
Ezra 7:27 - Blessed be the LORD, the God of our fathers, who has put such a thing as this in the king’s heart, to adorn the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem
Neh 7:5 - Then my God put it into my heart to assemble the nobles, the officials and the people to be enrolled by genealogies. Then I found the book of the genealogy of those who came up first in which I found the following record:
2 Cor 8:16 - I thank God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you.

However, there are no verses that indicate that God is the source or cause of anyone believing the gospel.

The second half of the statement is true, I suppose - in that God does make some men new creations thereby giving them a new nature with new likes and dislike - as you put it.
Yes He does. And they are those who believe.
 
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FreeGrace2

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God won't be God if he wasn't first cause.
Why not? Your statement makes God the first cause of sin. That is unbiblical, sir. When cause is mentioned, God has absolutely nothing to do with its cause. The cause of all sin comes from the soul, within man and angel.

God creates the soul, yes (Gen 2:7). The soul creates sin, not God(James 1:14). Not even close.
 
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rnmomof7

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I've taken the liberty to address only this one concept from your post.

Very recently I listened in on a lengthy argument on another thread between a group of Calvinists and a group of Non-Calvinists.

It had to do with the question of the "creation" of sin. The Calvinists were being accused of believing and teaching that God "created" sin - since they held the position that all things were created by God.

I remember thinking at the time just how profoundly ignorant of scripture the entire concept of sin being "created" by anyone was- let alone God.

Sin is not a created thing. Evil is not a created thing.

Sin is the result of a choice made by one of God's creature to whom He has given free choice.

God cannot sin against Himself because He Himself is the perfect standard from which any choice must fall short in order to be called a sinful choice.

Sin, by it's very nature, has to be brought about by the actions of the creature.

Saying that God's sovereign decision to give free will to His creatures is the first cause of all sin is not the same as saying that God is the direct cause of sin since that is a ridiculous concept on the face of it.


God is the first cause of every event ....



Acts 2:23; Isa. 14:24, 27
Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
 
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Hank77

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The word "again" means to repeat something. So, it's referring to another birth like the first one. The only people who had been born of God in Jesus' day were the Israelites, so they are the only ones who could be born again of God.
I agree that when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus that is the being reborn of God, that Jesus is talking about. Being one of the many seeds of Abraham is not enough.
Only the Israelites had the first birth.
If we look at all men today as proselytes, to the vine, the Jews had a saying about proselytes, who converted to Judaism.

"one that is made a proselyte, כקטון שנולד דמי, "is like a child new born".''

T. Bab. Yebamot, fol. 22. 1. 48. 2. 62. 1. & 97. 2.

However, how were men born of God before Israel existed.
 
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Blank Stair

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Since this thread is going this far in page length and no one has apparently thought to correct the first error in the pronouncement of this threads topic of discussion, I figured this would be a good time to start. It should bring the issue to a close rather quickly. Since we can't actually discuss the why's of something that is not actually true.

The Westminster Confession of Faith does not say God is the first cause of sin. In fact it states just the opposite.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.


I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
 
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Marvin Knox

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......................You indicated that you thought my doctrines were based on what I wanted to believe. Isn't that exactly what your's are based on? You claim Jesus was referring to fallen man and Spiritual death, yet nothing like that is mentioned in the passage.................................
In my not so humble opinion, like Festus of old, your "great learning is driving you mad".

I believe if it was you and not Nicodemus on the spot - Jesus would just shake His head and say, "You're a teacher on the internet and don't know these things?"

With that - I'll say that I disagree with you and leave it at that.
 
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EmSw

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CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Who was there when God 'freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass'? What man is able to know the mind of God from the beginning to make a blanket statement like this? Why is man so presumptuous that he claims to know the mind of God? Is man equal to God that he makes doctrine from that which no man knows, nor given to us by God Himself?

If this is true, then why not say God freely and unchangeably ordained your faith, yet so as thereby, He is not the author of your faith?
 
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Blank Stair

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Did you miss the pasting of chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession of Faith?
I'll reiterate and add chapter 4.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.


I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

CHAPTER IV.
Of Creation.

I. It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for the manifestation of the glory of his eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, in the beginning, to create or make of nothing the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good.

II. After God had made all other creatures, he created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness after his own image, having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfill it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change. Besides this law written in their hearts, they received a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; which while they kept were happy in their communion with God, and had dominion over the creatures.





Who was there when God 'freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass'? What man is able to know the mind of God from the beginning to make a blanket statement like this? Why is man so presumptuous that he claims to know the mind of God? Is man equal to God that he makes doctrine from that which no man knows, nor given to us by God Himself?

If this is true, then why not say God freely and unchangeably ordained your faith, yet so as thereby, He is not the author of your faith?
 
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rnmomof7

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Since this thread is going this far in page length and no one has apparently thought to correct the first error in the pronouncement of this threads topic of discussion, I figured this would be a good time to start. It should bring the issue to a close rather quickly. Since we can't actually discuss the why's of something that is not actually true.

The Westminster Confession of Faith does not say God is the first cause of sin. In fact it states just the opposite.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.


I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
 
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Blank Stair

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What is your point there?

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
 
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FreeGrace2

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Did you miss the pasting of chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession of Faith?
I'll reiterate and add chapter 4.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.


I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

CHAPTER IV.
Of Creation.

I. It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for the manifestation of the glory of his eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, in the beginning, to create or make of nothing the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good.

II. After God had made all other creatures, he created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness after his own image, having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfill it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change. Besides this law written in their hearts, they received a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; which while they kept were happy in their communion with God, and had dominion over the creatures.
One should be aware that the WCF isn't the "last word" on what the Bible says. It only states what a group of men had said about the Bible. iow, it's just a commentary. It isn't God's Word, though some sure treat it that way.
 
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rnmomof7

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One should be aware that the WCF isn't the "last word" on what the Bible says. It only states what a group of men had said about the Bible. iow, it's just a commentary. It isn't God's Word, though some sure treat it that way.


Would you say God is not the 1st cause of everything ? That He is the "first responder" ?
 
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Blank Stair

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One must keep in mind the title of this thread. That which invited a discussion on the particulars related thereto.

Is God the "first cause of everything" (including sin) as the Westminster Confession says?


One should be aware that the WCF isn't the "last word" on what the Bible says. It only states what a group of men had said about the Bible. iow, it's just a commentary. It isn't God's Word, though some sure treat it that way.
 
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EmSw

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Would you say God is not the 1st cause of everything ? That He is the "first responder" ?

I say He isn't. Even God says He isn't.

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

It also says it DIDN'T come into God's mind that they should do this abomination; therefore, predestination takes a hit also.
 
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FreeGrace2

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God is the first cause of every event ….
What saith Scripture?

Acts 2:23 - this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Isa. 14:24, 27 - 24The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, “Surely, just as I haveintended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it willstand, 27“For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”

Gen 8:22 - “While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease.”

Jer. 31:35 - Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:

Isa. 10:6,7 - 6 I send it against a godless nation And commission it against the people of My fury To capture booty and to seize plunder, And to trample them down like mud in the streets. 7 Yet it does not so intend, Nor does it plan so in its heart, But rather it is its purpose to destroy And to cut off many nations.

Exod. 21:13 - “But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee

Deut. 19:5 - as when a man goes into the forest with his friend to cut wood, and his hand swings the axe to cut down the tree, and the iron head slips off the handle and strikes his friend so that he dies—he may flee to one of these cities and live

I Kings 22:28-34 - 28Micaiah said, “If you indeed return safely the LORD has not spoken by me.” And he said, “Listen, all you people.” 29So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah went up against Ramoth-gilead. 30The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “I will disguise myself and go into the battle, but you put on your robes.” So the king of Israel disguised himself and went into the battle. 31Now the king of Aram had commanded the thirty-two captains of his chariots, saying, “Do not fight with small or great, but with the king of Israel alone.” 32So when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, they said, “Surely it is the king of Israel,” and they turned aside to fight against him, and Jehoshaphat cried out. 33When the captains of the chariots saw that it was not the king of Israel, they turned back from pursuing him. 34Now a certain man drew his bow at random and struck the king of Israel in a joint of the armor. So he said to the driver of his chariot, “Turn around and take me out of the fight; for I am severely wounded.”[/QUOTE]
Out of all these verses, none of them claims that God is the first cause of every event. Sure, God does cause some events. I don't believe anyone argues about that. But the claim is that God is the first cause of every event. Yet none of these verses says that.

Some of them don't even address the issue of God causing anything, so I don't know why they were added. Maybe to pad the list?

Scripture does not say that God is the first cause of every event.
 
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