The ten commandments Old covenant, and the law "done away" and "abolished" as paul said

[BobRyan]

The text does not deal with the 7th day Sabbath. Rather it deals with the Lev 23 list of annual holy days - one man regards/observes one above the others while another man regards them all.

No reference at all to the weekly Sabbath and there is no practice among NT Christians of refraining from work 7 days a week.

The "eats vegetables only" was not a Jewish practice because their religion required eating meat as part of their feast days. It was 1Cor 8 gentiles who were "accustomed to idols until now" that were being vegetarian so as to avoid eating meat offered to idols.

any day can be applied to this.

Turns out that is not the case.

In Gal 4 - Paul flatly condemns the observance of pagan days.
In Rom 14 Paul does not affirm refusing to work all 7 days of the week. In fact he condemns it. "If he will not work - neither let him eat".

Rom 14 never mentions the word Sabbath - and never speaks to the weekly Sabbath.

God predicts that for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" - Is 66:23

and Paul says to others let no man judge you in ..sabbath days" Colossians

A reference to "commandments of men" as Paul says in Col 2 -- he is not condemning the commandments of God.

There is no Sabbath today,

Yes there is as the Bible points out - and even D.L Moody, C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, R.C. Sproul, Andy Stanley ... admit to this fact. All TEN of the Ten commandments remain.

all the ten commandments are done away and abolished in their relation to the believer

There is not one Bible text supporting that idea.

Paul says that they are all binding on the saints today and that among the TEN commandments still binding the fifth commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2. Only true in that unit of ten.

who is made free from the law of sin and death and dead to the law, not under it.

We are in fact to be judged by it according to James 2. You are using the texts speaking of the lost and the law's role for the lost as if the other texts speaking of the role of the law for the saints - do not exist. That is problematic.

2 Cor 3 contrasts the old Covenant with the New - the same moral law - but external on stone in the old covenant - but in the New Covenant that same Jer 31:31-33 LAW is "written on the mind and heart" - as we are reminded in Heb 8.

 

[nomadictheist]

No, there is no getting around it, it is clear in the text. Just let the text speak clearly as it does.

"And he wrote on the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

The only one trying to get around the text is you. I put it in context. You try to take it back out

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 3 states that the LAW of God defines sin.
Romans 3 also states that the saints "establish the LAW of God" Rom 3:31 by their faith.
Romans 6 says the saints are not to sin.

Now here we have a detail that many sometimes miss.


Notice the phrase "under the law" as it condemns the entire world.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.






What then of the saints - that are not "under" that condemnation? "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even for the saints - so ... shall they simply choose sin?


Romans 6

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
...
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/QUOTE]

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Law of God - the Commandments of God -- define what sin is. "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 who also writes "these things I write to you that you SIN NOT" 1 John 2:1

The NT writers do not abolish the moral law of God - rather they claim it shows all the world to be sinners -- still to this day it works that way.

That is its role for the lost.


God's Law - God's Commandments have this role - for the born-again saints --

NT saints still show that they Love God - when they "Keep God's commandments".

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

According to the Bible that "cannot keep God's Law" scenario is the case for the lost

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/QUOTE]


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Again, as many do they avoid 2 Corinthians 3 and Romans 7 etc and Galatians. The law does show that is sin and so does the true Light that lighteth every man. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light. The reason men are condemned is when they hate the light John 3.

The law is good if a man use it lawfully, it is not made for a righteous man. But for sinners, and ungodly etc as 1 Timothy 1 says. But Paul also wrote that the "end of the law is charity". The words "end of the law", mean the end of the law for righteous men in Christ. We ra e dead to it and not under it and free from it. It is abolished and done away, and yes that is the moral law of ten commandments for believers. We establish and fulfill the law by living in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus , not in the oldness of the letter and the law of sin and death. Outside of Christ the law is a law of sin and death to those who are exposed to it. It is a ministration of death abd condemnation to them. But when broken and exposed and they repent and turn to Jesus they are free from the law and the ministration it had. And yes if a man goes back and kills or does evil against the love of God he is convinced as a sinner again by the law. But the law does not give life or make a man righteous. It simply shows him he is not in the love of God and his fellow man and that he is a sinner.

But definately the Sabbath is not for today and the ten commandment which are the Old Covenant are abolished done away, waxed old, vanished, decayed, etc etc

its the use of the law that is causing the problem I think. Also Jesus commands are different than Moses commands in the law and commandments. Yes, before Jesus died he did refer to the law also. But His commandments are not the same in the new Covenant. There are many commands Jesus said that are His own.

 

[nomadictheist]

If some just want to have one day above another or not eat cewrtain things etc. then paul says to that

"1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it..."(Romans 14:1-8 KJV)

If it was just a matter of this then the weak ones can eat herbs and have one day above another. But when it becomes to try and establish righteousness by keeping an outward law or ordinance etc, that is different. If some become debtors to keep the whole law and go back under a curse, that is another things. If some build the things they destroyed that is another things.

Think of this. if a man who is lost heard the law and tried to keep it does that make him righteous and saved?, No. Lets suppose he reads "Thou shalt not commit adultery." And so he gets tempted and says to himself. i am not going to do that. And he doesnt commit that sin. Does that save him? No. He is still a lost man. But lets say He does now commit that sin, and he realizes he has broken one law and so broken all the law and is convinced as a sinner, what does he do now? Well, in the Ot they had the animal sacrifices and they had to come to God in repentance and faith. This is the same today. And so when a person has been killed spiritually and shown he is dead and that he does not have the love of God in his heart, he is in a lost condition. Then when he comes to God he is justified by faith, what need does he have to be under the law if he is walking in the new life and law of the Spirit. He already knew through the law that he was a sinner and the law brought him to a need of Jesus by faith. He is now dead to the ministration of the law and the purpose of the law. Yes if he rebels against Jesus and sins he is not in that love and spirit of life.

I've never claimed obeying the law saves people, but that those who are saved are to obey the commandments.

You try to play with words but it's really very simple. Either lying, stealing, adultery, murder etc. Are still wrong or they're not. If they're wrong, then we as Christians are to obey the righteous law not to do them. And if they aren't wrong, then there is no reason not to do them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What then of the saints - that are not "under" that condemnation?

[/QUOTE]

The reason men are condemned is when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. And the gentiles have a witness also of these things as we read

"14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Romans 2:14-16 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

According to the Bible that "cannot keep God's Law" scenario is the case for the lost

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Again, as many do they avoid 2 Corinthians 3 and Romans 7 etc and Galatians. The law does show that is sin and so does the true Light that lighteth every man. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light. The reason men are condemned is when they hate the light John 3.

The law is good if a man use it lawfully, it is not made for a righteous man. But for sinners, and ungodly etc as 1 Timothy 1 says. But Paul also wrote that the "end of the law is charity". The words "end of the law", mean the end of the law for righteous men in Christ. We ra e dead to it and not under it and free from it. It is abolished and done away, and yes that is the moral law of ten commandments for believers. We establish and fulfill the law by living in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus , not in the oldness of the letter and the law of sin and death. Outside of Christ the law is a law of sin and death to those who are exposed to it. It is a ministration of death abd condemnation to them. But when broken and exposed and they repent and turn to Jesus they are free from the law and the ministration it had. And yes if a man goes back and kills or does evil against the love of God he is convinced as a sinner again by the law. But the law does not give life or make a man righteous. It simply shows him he is not in the love of God and his fellow man and that he is a sinner.

But definately the Sabbath is not for today and the ten commandment which are the Old Covenant are abolished done away, waxed old, vanished, decayed, etc etc

its the use of the law that is causing the problem I think. Also Jesus commands are different than Moses commands in the law and commandments. Yes, before Jesus died he did refer to the law also. But His commandments are not the same in the new Covenant. There are many commands Jesus said that are His own.[/QUOTE]

The law of Christ is what believers are in now, this is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

And there is no large distinction as some make it between the moral law and ceremonial law.

 

[nomadictheist]

If some just want to have one day above another or not eat cewrtain things etc. then paul says to that

"1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it..."(Romans 14:1-8 KJV)

If it was just a matter of this then the weak ones can eat herbs and have one day above another. But when it becomes to try and establish righteousness by keeping an outward law or ordinance etc, that is different. If some become debtors to keep the whole law and go back under a curse, that is another things. If some build the things they destroyed that is another things.

Think of this. if a man who is lost heard the law and tried to keep it does that make him righteous and saved?, No. Lets suppose he reads "Thou shalt not commit adultery." And so he gets tempted and says to himself. i am not going to do that. And he doesnt commit that sin. Does that save him? No. He is still a lost man. But lets say He does now commit that sin, and he realizes he has broken one law and so broken all the law and is convinced as a sinner, what does he do now? Well, in the Ot they had the animal sacrifices and they had to come to God in repentance and faith. This is the same today. And so when a person has been killed spiritually and shown he is dead and that he does not have the love of God in his heart, he is in a lost condition. Then when he comes to God he is justified by faith, what need does he have to be under the law if he is walking in the new life and law of the Spirit. He already knew through the law that he was a sinner and the law brought him to a need of Jesus by faith. He is now dead to the ministration of the law and the purpose of the law. Yes if he rebels against Jesus and sins he is not in that love and spirit of life.

Also, the context of Romans 14 suggests that Paul is talking about "days" as in feasts, holidays, and celebrations that occurred as part of the culture. Not the sabbath day. That is why it is grouped with other things consistent with celebrations and feasts in that culture

 

[BobRyan]

Again, as many do they avoid 2 Corinthians 3 and Romans 7 etc and Galatians. The law does show that is sin and so does the true Light that lighteth every man. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light. The reason men are condemned is when they hate the light John 3.

The law is good if a man use it lawfully, it is not made for a righteous man. But for sinners

If you were living a sinless life the Law would not be pointing out your sins.

"These things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1 and "sin IS transgression of the LAW" when it comes to the saints that John is writing to.

If you are a saint then you have the New Covenant "LAW written on your mind and heart" Jer 31:31-33 Heb 8.
Exegesis demands we admit to the moral law that Jeremiah and his readers would know of when they read that text.

This is irrefutable when it comes to the New Covenant.

, and ungodly etc as 1 Timothy 1 says. But Paul also wrote that the "end of the law is charity". The words "end of the law", mean the end of the law for righteous men in Christ. We ra e dead to it

Only in terms of the lost - who do accept the Gospel and are no longer under the condemnation of the law. Romans 3 is clear that "under the law" means "under condemnation of the Law".

But the New Covenant has an entirely different role for the moral Law of God - "written on the mind and heart" -- no longer needed to condemn those who have stopped sinning against it as even your own quote points out.

Not text says of God's Commandments "free from it. It is abolished and done away, and yes that is the moral law" -- that is simply man-made tradition.

We establish and fulfill the law by living in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

"Do we then nullify the Law by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.
"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The law of life in Christ Jesus - Jesus was sinless.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LoveofTruth]

The only one trying to get around the text is you. I put it in context. You try to take it back out

How hard is it to see , "the covenant, the ten commandments."

I marvel at how some cannot see these things, as clear as they are.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's talk about the teaching of Jesus - Christians are known for following His teaching - notice his idea that His Commandments - His Ten Commandments - are not abolished but rather they judge the traditions of man.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)
==========================================

notice how John fully agrees with Christ's statement on the Commandments of God?

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

 

[BobRyan]

its the use of the law that is causing the problem I think. Also Jesus commands are different than Moses commands in the law and commandments. Yes, before Jesus died he did refer to the law also. But His commandments are not the same in the new Covenant. There are many commands Jesus said that are His own.

We just saw in Mark 7:6-13 Jesus calling the Ten Commandments the "Word of God" and "Moses Said" and "The Commandment of God" and condemned religious leaders who attempted to downsize or alter them in the least.

The law of Christ is what believers are in now, this is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

And there is no large distinction as some make it between the moral law and ceremonial law.

Not according to Paul in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" is given in direct contrast to the law of circumcision.

Not according to the NEW Covenant -

"I will write My LAWS on their mind and heart" as known to Jeremiah in Jer 31:31-33

And if one reads the "actual" New Covenant in the NT - Heb 8:6-10 there we find that CHRIST is the one that spoke the TEN Commandments on Sinai - this is the NT statement on what happened at Sinai - those are CHRISTs commandments according to Paul in Heb 8.


=======================================
QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68478425, member: 235244"]so then God's Law is NOT ended and the Bible evidence for this fact as noted on this first page - is irrefutable.

And of Course Christ - God the Son is "God at Sinai" giving the Ten Commandments -- the covenant written in stone.

Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.[/QUOTE]

 

[nomadictheist]

How hard is it to see , "the covenant, the ten commandments."

I marvel at how some cannot see these things, as clear as they are.

How hard is it to see that God clearly defines the covenant before these words? The one who refuses to admit what is there is you.

Exegesis is simple. If the text appears to clash with what's around it, look at other scripture to interpret it accurately. Twice prior to this statement God clearly defined the covenant as including more than the 10 commandments that the 20th chapter starts with. That doesn't just go away because you found one little verse that seems to support your fallacious argument until you examine it further

 

[BobRyan]

The funny thing about all this - is that the points I have been posting are NOT just the POV of seventh-day Sabbath keeping Christians - they are also the views of the main part of sunday keeping scholarship as noted in my signature line.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Romans 3 is clear that "under the law" means "under condemnation of the Law".

The law itself, the ten commandments and all the Old Covenant are a "ministration of condemnation as Paul clearly says,

"7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation...13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:" (2 Corinthians 3:7-9)


and as far as being "undr the law"

In the Old Testament Law found in Deuteronomy 27:26 it says, "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’" So, to be under the Law means you have to keep it all. In Galatians 3:10 Paul said, "10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” That is what it means to be under the Law.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

"for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

As believers we are dead to the law we died with Christ,

"4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."(Romans 7:4-6)

Also in Acts 15 and 21 we see that the Law of Moses was not applied to the Gentiles

no Jew or gentile has to keep the law either. As scripture says

"23 The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" acts 15:23,24

and

"...but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing" (Acts 21:24,25)

 

[LoveofTruth]

How hard is it to see that God clearly defines the covenant before these words? The one who refuses to admit what is there is you.

Exegesis is simple. If the text appears to clash with what's around it, look at other scripture to interpret it accurately. Twice prior to this statement God clearly defined the covenant as including more than the 10 commandments that the 20th chapter starts with. That doesn't just go away because you found one little verse that seems to support your fallacious argument until you examine it further

"The 10 commandments were the first/old covenant! This is so clear all we need to do is quote the Bible without comment:

1. The tables are part of the abolished first covenant: Heb 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. "Now even the first covenant had ... the TABLES OF THE COVENANT." Heb 9:1-4
2. Hebrews 9:1,4 "Now even the first covenant had ... the tables of the covenant"
3. Exodus 34:27-28: "Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."
4. Deuteronomy 4:13: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
5. Deuteronomy 9:9: "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.
6. Deuteronomy 5:2-3: "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."
7. 1 Kings 8:9,21: V9 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." ... V21 "And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt."
8. 2 Chronicles 6:11: "And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with the sons of Israel."
9. In 2 Corinthians 3:2-11, the abolished Old Covenant was the 10 commandments!"

There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." "And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord" 1 Kings 8:9,21

2 Chronicles 6:11: "And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with the sons of Israel."

 

[LoveofTruth]

The funny thing about all this - is that the points I have been posting are NOT just the POV of seventh-day Sabbath keeping Christians - they are also the views of the main part of sunday keeping scholarship as noted in my signature line.

It doesn't matter if the whole world goes against 2 Corinthians 3. Paul wrote the truth there by the Spirit of God. Showing clearly that the tables of stones, from Moses, ( the ten commandments_ are done away for believers and abolished.

I guess what pPaul wrote in that chapter is related to today as well, he said their minds were blinded in reading the Old Testament. Interesting he refers to the whole old testament even.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The funny thing about all this - is that the points I have been posting are NOT just the POV of seventh-day Sabbath keeping Christians - they are also the views of the main part of sunday keeping scholarship as noted in my signature line.

the Sabbath required this

"9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.(Deuteronomy 28:9,10 KJV)

do you do this? Do you obey Gods law?

No and this is not required for believers today, whether Jews or Gentiles. And neither is the Sabbath.

If some argue that these are not in the ten commandments, then do they not eat Pork? what is in the ten commandments about not eating pork?. Do they tithe? what is in the commandment about tithing? isnt tithing an ordinance? and arent ordinaces abolished also.?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Some might try to give the impression that if we dont listen to Moses now who do we listen to, do we just break the law and not follow it etc.

We listen to Jesus, Moses and Elijah faded away and all that was there was Jesus God said to hear Him. Moses and Elijah represent the law and the prophets.

 

[BobRyan]

the Sabbath required this

"9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.(Deuteronomy 28:9,10 KJV)

do you do this? Do you obey Gods law?

It did not require that until Sinai - in Gen 2:1-3 it did not require it -- as even the pro-Sunday sources in my signature line admit - it was kept in Eden. This not just a point noticed by those who keep the actual Sabbath.

No and this is not required for believers today, whether Jews or Gentiles. And neither is the Sabbath.

If some argue that these are not in the ten commandments, then do they not eat Pork? what is in the ten commandments about not eating pork?. Do they tithe? what is in the commandment about tithing? isnt tithing an ordinance? and arent ordinaces abolished also.?

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" when did Christians abolish this commandment?
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" -- when did Christians abolish this one?

If they did - when do they get the NT writers to stopping affirming those commandments of God?

Only one of the Ten Commandments is not quoted at all - in any part - in the NT -- and that is the Third Commandment... not the fourth.