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Creation by natural processes is just a theory

paulm50

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We do not see miracles happening all over the place, so apparently God is in the habit of accomplishing his purposes through the operation of natural causes. That being the case, why should the origin of life be different? Or planetary formation, for that matter.

The past leaves its fingerprints all over the present. If that wasn't the case, we would be able to say nothing about what had happened in the past, except for that which lay within living memory.
Do you have any proof of that, in the bible?

As a Christian, you're hemmed into the words written in the bible. It's impossible to disregard, deny one part and follow other parts. It's either a book inspired by god, or the writing of men.

Atheist can prove evolution, now we have Christians claiming evolution, nature, is the work of god.

Today we can examine those footprints, when the OT was written, they were stuck within living memory. Even the NT is partly within living memory and imagination.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Creation by natrual processes is not evven a scientific theory. I think (IMHO) science deals with factual issues within the universe.

An analogy would be Newtons Laws they apply to the universe, within the universe, not to the "process of the creation of the universe" or to the universe as a whole. Likewise, grammar and semantics, they belong within a language, rather than being responsible for the creation of the language per se.

The term "gravity" belongs in the universe, and also in a language. You cant say "grammar created English" or "Newtons Laws created the universe as a whole." That would (most likely) be a category error, language gone on holiday....
 
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lesliedellow

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Do you have any proof of that, in the bible?

As a Christian, you're hemmed into the words written in the bible. It's impossible to disregard, deny one part and follow other parts. It's either a book inspired by god, or the writing of men.

Atheists and creationists have one thing in common. Even though their motives are very different, they both want to insist that the opening chapters of Genesis be read as literal history. The question is not whether the Bible was inspired by God, but how it is to be understood. Way back in the fifth century St Augustine was warning against an insistence that every word of it be read absolutely literally. Fifteen centuries before it happened, he foresaw the impossible position fundamentalists would be talking themselves into.


Atheist can prove evolution, now we have Christians claiming evolution, nature, is the work of god.

Nobody, atheists included, can prove evolution. They can just say that it is currently the theory which best fits the data. And athough the new atheists like to claim science as their special possession, as though they owned the copyright on it, there are very many working scientists who are Christians, including some on here.


oday we can examine those footprints, when the OT was written, they were stuck within living memory. Even the NT is partly within living memory and imagination.

One day atheists want to say that the opening chapters of Genesis draw on Mesopotamian sources, and the next day they want to say that the biblical authors had no written sources available to them.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Evolution is a fact, not a theory.

The bird sits on the branch, that is a fact. Even if Descartes looks on, its still there. Even if the tree falls and no one is watching....

But facts themselves are theoretical entities (or parts of theories), arent they? The designation "fact" depends on cerain presuppositions of scientific realism...

Thats that.

This may be no big deal. I too am a fact, and I want to be regarded thus. By my dentist, by one and all. But the word "fact" and its understood usage, is not a neutral pregiven. Rather it depends on some quite sophisticated cognitive capacities, insights and inferences.

Facts - in this respect - are not indepentantly existing epistemic foundations, on which people build science. They are more like birds on branches, entities branching off from prior noodling.


And the sciences like flocks, open to philosophical attack!

 
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lesliedellow

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Evolution is a fact, not a theory.

Is that why it is called the Theory of Evolution? Even theories which have been verified time and time again can come unstuck, as physicists discovered in the early twentieth century. Besides, you sound like a creationist. They never want to admit that their ideas might be wrong.
 
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lesliedellow

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Creation by natrual processes is not evven a scientific theory. I think (IMHO) science deals with factual issues within the universe.

Theistic Evolution is a philosophical interpretation of a theory, just as atheistic evolution is. Evolution itself doesn't carry philosophical baggage of either kind. Of course, atheists forget to include the adjective appropriate to their interpretation, when they are using Evolution as a club with which to belabour Christians.
 
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paulm50

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Atheists and creationists have one thing in common. Even though their motives are very different, they both want to insist that the opening chapters of Genesis be read as literal history. The question is not whether the Bible was inspired by God, but how it is to be understood. Way back in the fifth century St Augustine was warning against an insistence that every word of it be read absolutely literally. Fifteen centuries before it happened, he foresaw the impossible position fundamentalists would be talking themselves into.
So the bible is a collection of stories. I agree. Many are very violent, many promise extreme punishment for exercising what god gave us. And the ones that are absolutely natural, have been turned into sins.
Nobody, atheists included, can prove evolution. They can just say that it is currently the theory which best fits the data. And athough the new atheists like to claim science as their special possession, as though they owned the copyright on it, there are very many working scientists who are Christians, including some on here.
WRONG. Evolution is an ongoing process. People no longer to even try to prove it exists, they're way past that at discovering the intricacies of how it works.



It shows how wrong you are.
One day atheists want to say that the opening chapters of Genesis draw on Mesopotamian sources, and the next day they want to say that the biblical authors had no written sources available to them.
Different people say different things. Christians say it was god that created the big bang billions of years ago. Others say the Earth is 6,000 years old. Obviously the stories from all the bibles come from a time when there was no writing. So everything was shared orally and stories crossed border.[/QUOTE]
 
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paulm50

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Is that why it is called the Theory of Evolution? Even theories which have been verified time and time again can come unstuck, as physicists discovered in the early twentieth century. Besides, you sound like a creationist. They never want to admit that their ideas might be wrong.
Is still calling it the Theory of Evolution. Your evidence it's still theory?

Seriously watch the program and see how far we have got. Did you see how we can effect evolution by moving to different environments. And how natural selection is more about birth?
 
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lesliedellow

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Is still calling it the Theory of Evolution. Your evidence it's still theory?

Seriously watch the program and see how far we have got. Did you see how we can effect evolution by moving to different environments. And how natural selection is more about birth?

It is a theory for heaven sake. As I pointed out, Newtonian Mechanics had apparently been tested time and time and time again, and yet it turned out to be nothing more than an approximation which worked most of the time. For that matter, quantum theory is described as one of the most successful theories ever, but it is known for a fact (really a fact) that either it, or relativity, and probably both, are wrong.
 
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lesliedellow

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Obviously the stories from all the bibles come from a time when there was no writing. So everything was shared orally and stories crossed border.

Really? And when do you suppose writing arrived in the ancient Near East?
 
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paulm50

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pshun2404

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Yes, it is the simplest and most straight forward way.

Barring other evidence to think this interpretation is wrong it is the best.

Indeed one must bar contrary indications or interpretations to make it seem to be the explanation. I agree...! However doing so does not make the resulting conclusion correct. Homological reasoning was meant to be a system of taxonomic classification not evidence of one genomic family becoming an entirely different genomic family. Homology like Freudian Character types, or Astrological signs, is merely one way of grouping but not true. Is the act of "barring" alternative insights, interpretations, or contrary data, actually good science? When scientists today fudge data or discard indications that oppose their preconceived conclusions is this really being objective with the facts? Can the conclusions cast upon us based on these invalid derivations be counted on as true? Really, be honest.

Take Dubois for example...he found a piece of an apelike skull cap and a human femur and teamed them up creating an ape-man (one bone from an ape one from a man) that ran for 30 years in textbooks brainwashing millions,then it was revealed that at the same site he had found two totally human skulls that he has intentionally hid. Now understand, it was other (but actually objective) scientists that caught him. Yet still Dubois is considered an early EB hero and many people still believe in ficticious creature he concocted. And this is not some old, creationist claim, it is history!

In modern times (though they purposely hide this in your education/indoctrination) intentionaly corruption and disregarding and even discarding contrary data is still happening even in EB peer reviewed Journals all the time. In an article from the “National Institute of Health” we receive this report (EMBO Rep. 2007 January; 8(1): 1). “Fraud in our laboratories?”, by Frank Gannon, who informs us that “With depressing regularity, the media continue to uncover cases of scientific fraud... although the scientific community regards publicized cases of fraudulent behavior as exceptional and deviant from accepted scientific standards—fraud is an inevitable component of today's research.”

In another article titled, “Scientific fraud and the power structure of science” (Prometheus, Vol. 10, No. 1, June 1992, pp. 83-98), author Brian Martin tells us, “One of the most common misrepresentations in scientific work is the scientific paper itself (see P. B. Medawar, 'Is the scientific paper fraudulent? Yes; it misrepresents scientific thought', Saturday Review, 1 August 1964, pp. 42-43). It sometimes presents a mythical reconstruction of what actually happened. All of what are in retrospect mistaken ideas, badly designed experiments, and incorrect calculations are omitted. The paper presents the research as if it had been carefully thought out, planned and executed according to a neat, rigorous process, for example involving testing of a hypothesis.

"The misrepresentation in the scientific paper is the most formal aspect of the misrepresentation of science as an orderly process based on a clearly defined method (see John A. Schuster and Richard R. Yeo, The Politics and Rhetoric of Scientific Method: Historical Studies, Reidel, Dordrecht, 1986).” So in effect, “No scientist publishes all the raw data…Inappropriately done (usually according to someone else's assessment), this process can be called cooking, trimming, fiddling, fudging or forging the data.”

In many cases in their own experimental process data arises that totally negates their hoped for conclusion and it is simply never mentioned, hidden, or tossed out, but later some have been caught (by objective thinkers and scientists with integrity)...like Dubois....what he had really discovered was early evidence for sapien not an ape-man...perhaps these fellows killed or even ate the ape...

Now though it is honorable to catch these manipulators and liars the sad thing is that for every one caught four or five such published findings escape unnoticed and then become relied on as support in other people's conclusions (but are not true) and then are believed by millions who are being taught what to think rather than how to think.

But we do agree here...that there is or may be a God(s) is not mutually exclusive to the idea of change over time just abiogenesis and vross genera or cross phyletic morphism...for example there is no actual evidence reptiles ever became birds, but it is packaged, pushed, swallowed, and believed by millions who have been brainwashed by the argument from authority fallacy.

Paul
 
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lesliedellow

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Holoman

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I think it raises a good point, that human evolution (from animals) is a theory which unlike other scientific endeavours cannot be repeated and supported with experimentation and stands on a much weaker foundation than say the theory of relativity. In fact there are scientists with considerable doubts over the evidence for, for example human evolution from apes, because the evidence is so circumstantial and doesn't actually prove a dependency merely a link between different creatures. The book Darwin's Doubt does a great job imo of pointing out some of the problems with the neo-Darwinian evolutionary ideas and the lack of evidence supporting macro-evolution.

It's interesting actually for people that like to slam the Bible for its scientific accuracy, that it has a pretty great track record in the few areas it does make prediction about origins. For example for hundreds/thousands of years scientific skeptics thought that the universe was eternal, an idea dating back to Aristotle, and it wasn't until the 1950's that evidence for the Big Bang became so overwhelming that scientists were forced to accept the biblical notion that the universe is not eternal and in fact had a beginning.

To borrow an argument from John Lennox, there is a reason we can do science, a reason that the universe has laws to discover and that it is rationally intelligible, and it's because it was created by a rational intelligent being. There is a reason that science has flourished in the last few hundred years so much from Christian origins when compared with the non-Christian origins in the far east, and that is because the early scientists sought law and order in nature because they believed in a law giver.
 
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lesliedellow

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I think it raises a good point, that human evolution (from animals) is a theory which unlike other scientific endeavours cannot be repeated and supported with experimentation and stands on a much weaker foundation than say the theory of relativity. In fact there are scientists with considerable doubts over the evidence for, for example human evolution from apes, because the evidence is so circumstantial and doesn't actually prove a dependency merely a link between different creatures.

There is strong evidence from genetics that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

If humans were created separately from all the other species on the face of the Earth, then they would have needed to be created complete with a faulty gene, which prevents them from synthesising their own vitamin C.
 
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pshun2404

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Atheist can prove evolution, now we have Christians claiming evolution, nature, is the work of god.
Nobody, atheists included, can prove evolution. They can just say that it is currently the theory which best fits the data. And athough the new atheists like to claim science as their special possession, as though they owned the copyright on it, there are very many working scientists who are Christians, including some on here.

Indeed! In fact much of modern science rests on the efforts of scientists who were Christians....for a few examples consider Copernicus (Astronomy), Kepler (Cosmology), or Boyle (Chemistry), Pascal (Math), Steno (Anatomy), Faraday (Light), Kelvin (Thermodynamics), Maxwell (electro-magnetism, foundation of Quantum Physics), Mendel (Genetic inheritance), Pastuer (Bacteriology), Maurey (oceanography), Tesla and Marconi (Telegraph and Radio), Edison (Telephone and Lighting), J. H. Muller (Biological Research) and so many many more....
 
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Holoman

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There is strong evidence from genetics that humans and apes share a common ancestor.

If humans were created separately from all the other species on the face of the Earth, then they would have needed to be created complete with a faulty gene, which prevents them from synthesising their own vitamin C.

Yes but that's still just circumstantial, there are plenty of circumstantial cases where gradual evolution cannot possibly explain the complexity of the end result as they only work as a complete set of parts so individual bits evolving would serve no purpose.

Not saying it is wrong, just that it has nowhere near the evidence of other scientific theories like relativity or the big bang which are for all intents and purposes, scientific fact.
 
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paulm50

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Try around 1,500BC. Few people place the earliest OT writings before around 1,000BC, and the really crazed amongst the professional skeptics manage to put it much later than that.
That's when it was written down in what we now call the Torah, OT. The oral stories come from much earlier.
 
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lesliedellow

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That's when it was written down in what we now call the Torah, OT. The oral stories come from much earlier.

You do not know, and I do not know, what sources the biblical writers had available to them. That information is simply not recoverable.
 
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