[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

[paulm50]

If there existed a being who was the greatest possible being, do you think that this being would be able to communicate with a man in such a way that the man would be able to distinguish this communication from his own imagination?

If not, why?

A being as powerful as it's claimed, with a long record of interfering and showing himself. Is very capable of communicating with you. He's powerful enough to communicate with all of us.

Here's a lesson I learned from selling. It's more important to gain new customers, than to keep old one. Because new ones are the growth of a company.

What would convince people more than a god who didn't ask you to believe before you could believe in him. Only spoke to individuals who already believed. Allowed many in opposition to gain ground.

And allowed his one church to splinter into small money making off shoots?

This is why god is losing out, new generations of Westerners are questioning his existence. And allows Islam to grow at rapid speed.

 

[Chriliman]

A being as powerful as it's claimed, with a long record of interfering and showing himself. Is very capable of communicating with you. He's powerful enough to communicate with all of us.

Here's a lesson I learned from selling. It's more important to gain new customers, than to keep old one. Because new ones are the growth of a company.

What would convince people more than a god who didn't ask you to believe before you could believe in him. Only spoke to individuals who already believed. Allowed many in opposition to gain ground.

And allowed his one church to splinter into small money making off shoots?

This is why god is losing out, new generations of Westerners are questioning his existence. And allows Islam to grow at rapid speed.

You seem to believe satan/evil is real, but that God/good is not powerful enough to overcome satan/evil. So essentially it seems you believe more strongly in satan rather than God...and you wonder why satan is winning in your life and seemingly winning in the world.

Try believing God is more powerful than satan and I guarantee God will begin to reveal to you how he has and is and will destroy satan and evil.

Belief is very powerful, but if you don't place your belief in the truth then your placing your belief in a lie which will only lead to more destruction. And currently all you see in this world is destruction and you can't see how God is going to overcome it, the reason you can't see is because your placing your belief in satan/evil and not in God/good.

 

[anonymous person]

As an ignostic, I will stop you at "being".

And as one who has reviewed just a fraction of the more than 10,000 messages you have posted on this forum during the time that you have been posting here, I must stop you right here and tell you that I am surprised to hear that after all the posts and replies and topics you have made and engaged in, sometimes rather heatedly, regarding God and specifically the God of Christianity, that you turn out now to be an ignostic!

Pardon my saying but I think you could have come up with a better way of avoiding my questions besides throwing out the ignostic card!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And as one who has reviewed just a fraction of the more than 10,000 messages you have posted on this forum during the time that you have been posting here, I must stop you right here and tell you that I am surprised to hear that after all the posts and replies and topics you have made and engaged in, sometimes rather heatedly, regarding God and specifically the God of Christianity, that you turn out now to be an ignostic!

Pardon my saying but I think you could have come up with a better way of avoiding my questions besides throwing out the ignostic card!

He could play the "inner witness" card if you prefer, or is that only for apologists?

 

[KCfromNC]

If there existed a being who was the greatest possible being, do you think that this being would be able to communicate with a man in such a way that the man would be able to distinguish this communication from his own imagination?

Yep. It could also choose to communicate in a way which made it impossible to distinguish the two. Given that this being is equally able to do either, there's no real reason to prefer either scenario as the correct one.

And that's once we get past the "If" part of your question, which in itself is a big jump.

 

[paulm50]

You seem to believe satan/evil is real, but that God/good is not powerful enough to overcome satan/evil. So essentially it seems you believe more strongly in satan rather than God...and you wonder why satan is winning in your life and seemingly winning in the world.

Try believing God is more powerful than satan and I guarantee God will begin to reveal to you how he has and is and will destroy satan and evil.

Belief is very powerful, but if you don't place your belief in the truth then your placing your belief in a lie which will only lead to more destruction. And currently all you see in this world is destruction and you can't see how God is going to overcome it, the reason you can't see is because your placing your belief in satan/evil and not in God/good.

I'm going on the evidence available, and if you can produce evidence there's been more good in the world for th last 4,000 years. I will be forced to change my decision.

If you can only prove more evil than good, will you change yours?

Belief is very powerful, even when presented with the evidence one is wrong.

 

[paulm50]

Yep. It could also choose to communicate in a way which made it impossible to distinguish the two. Given that this being is equally able to do either, there's no real reason to prefer either scenario as the correct one.

And that's once we get past the "If" part of your question, which in itself is a big jump.

If a loving Father saw his children doing wrong. Would he do his utmost to stop them, or would he tell those who were doing good, had no power of his children, they were doing the right thing?

And there's the contradiction. It's pointless telling the good converted people they're special and they will get a reward for their devotion, after they die. They're not out there raping, killing, robbing, hurting (except those Christians trying to oppress minorities).

The ones who need changing are the ones who don't believe, or believe that by doing evil they will go to heaven. And until these people hear from god, they will carry on. As they have for 1,000s of years.

 

[bhsmte]

If there existed a being who was the greatest possible being, do you think that this being would be able to communicate with a man in such a way that the man would be able to distinguish this communication from his own imagination?

If not, why?

How do you distinguish between the two, in an objective way, to try and eliminate personal bias?

 

[Davian]

And as one who has reviewed just a fraction of the more than 10,000 messages you have posted on this forum during the time that you have been posting here, I must stop you right here and tell you that I am surprised to hear that after all the posts and replies and topics you have made and engaged in, sometimes rather heatedly, regarding God and specifically the God of Christianity, that you turn out now to be an ignostic!

Do not misinterpret ignosticism for being unable to discuss particular deities. For example, we could talk about a god that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing.

We could discuss who would win in a fight between Batman and Superman. We need only to establish the ground rules.

Pardon my saying but I think you could have come up with a better way of avoiding my questions besides throwing out the ignostic card!

Are you only able to discuss your beliefs with those that allow your presuppositions to go unchallenged?

 

[Chriliman]

If a loving Father saw his children doing wrong. Would he do his utmost to stop them, or would he tell those who were doing good, had no power of his children, they were doing the right thing?

And there's the contradiction. It's pointless telling the good converted people they're special and they will get a reward for their devotion, after they die. They're not out there raping, killing, robbing, hurting (except those Christians trying to oppress minorities).

The ones who need changing are the ones who don't believe, or believe that by doing evil they will go to heaven. And until these people hear from god, they will carry on. As they have for 1,000s of years.

So why not commit yourself to Jesus and follow his teaching so that you can spread the gospel like Jesus tells us to and have an effect on those who are causing the evil in this world? Maybe stop focusing on why you believe the Bible is wrong and start focusing on why you believe Jesus is right. Just a thought

 

[paulm50]

So why not commit yourself to Jesus and follow his teaching so that you can spread the gospel like Jesus tells us to and have an effect on those who are causing the evil in this world? Maybe stop focusing on why you believe the Bible is wrong and start focusing on why you believe Jesus is right. Just a thought

I do try to teach people to be good. Why would you assume I do otherwise?

I don't need Jesus, god, or the bible to do good things. Jesus taught many great lessons.
No one can serve two masters.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Forgive those who have wronged us.
Not to judge others since we are all sinners.

Yet he taught he was a saviour, son of god, etc. Or others who were writing after he died wrote it. If he was the son of god, he was in the wrong place to start a new religion, even so by dying on the cross, he failed. No matter how much you say, a better way would of been to convert Pilate, go to Rome and convert Tiberius and the rest of the leaders. Leap frogging 400 years, saving countless lives and missing a lot of suffering.

Most certainly those who came after Jesus dropped much of his good lessons and used the church to gain money, too do war on the neighbors, to punish others, and most certainly be sinners and judge others.

Jesus never was looking to start a new religion, he worked to get Judaism back on track. It was Paul and Peter who were responsible for Christianity. Paul was anti sex and in favour of people remaining single.

If I were religious I would pick the one with the less black stains on it, Buddhism.

 

[anonymous person]

I do try to teach people to be good. Why would you assume I do otherwise?

I don't need Jesus, god, or the bible to do good things. Jesus taught many great lessons.
No one can serve two masters.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Forgive those who have wronged us.
Not to judge others since we are all sinners.

Yet he taught he was a saviour, son of god, etc. Or others who were writing after he died wrote it. If he was the son of god, he was in the wrong place to start a new religion, even so by dying on the cross, he failed. No matter how much you say, a better way would of been to convert Pilate, go to Rome and convert Tiberius and the rest of the leaders. Leap frogging 400 years, saving countless lives and missing a lot of suffering.

Most certainly those who came after Jesus dropped much of his good lessons and used the church to gain money, too do war on the neighbors, to punish others, and most certainly be sinners and judge others.

Jesus never was looking to start a new religion, he worked to get Judaism back on track. It was Paul and Peter who were responsible for Christianity. Paul was anti sex and in favour of people remaining single.

If I were religious I would pick the one with the less black stains on it, Buddhism.

And yet you have the rise of the early church in a hostile Roman Empire!

A bunch of rag-tag Jewish fisherman with a despised tax-collector thrown into the mix who followed a carpenter from Nazareth around for three years were somehow able to convince people that this man that was crucified was raised from the dead. Not only were they able to convince people from all walks of life from all the surrounding nations to assent to some mere proposition, but inspired people to affirm this confession to the point that many were made to suffer tremendously, even to the point of enduring some of the most extreme and barbarous tortures ever conjured up by the minds of evil men. This rag-tag group of unlearned Jews and many that followed even ended up dying for their claims.

Pretty bizarre for men who knew that Jesus' body was still decomposing somewhere don't ya think?

And yet here we are some two thousand years later talking about this Jewish carpenter.

This despised man who has followers numbering in the billions claiming He was God incarnate to this very day.

Seems to me that Jesus' methods were pretty effective to me.

But hey what do I know.

 

[anonymous person]

How do you distinguish between the two, in an objective way, to try and eliminate personal bias?

Why not just answer the question?

 

[anonymous person]

Yep. It could also choose to communicate in a way which made it impossible to distinguish the two. Given that this being is equally able to do either, there's no real reason to prefer either scenario as the correct one.

And that's once we get past the "If" part of your question, which in itself is a big jump.

I wholeheartedly agree with the assertion that God could choose to communicate in a way which made it impossible to distinguish this communication from one's imagination, in fact, I see nothing at all problematic with saying that in fact God does communicate to us via our imagination at times. If God created us then He most certainly can speak to us in more than one way. Why not our imagination?

You are trying to argue that I need to be concerned about the possibility that what I perceive to be the "voice" of God (here I use "voice" to signify any form of communication God may utilize and not exclusively an audible voice or a thought in one's mind) might in fact be nothing more than my imagination.

But I am not at all troubled by this for the aforementioned reason and in addition I might ask:

Would not God give one who sincerely desires to know Him a means by which he may determine if he really is hearing from Him or some imposter?

I think so.

 

[anonymous person]

He could play the "inner witness" card if you prefer, or is that only for apologists?

I am not particularly troubled by anyone claiming to have an inner witness. Nor do I believe that claiming such a thing is something that only apologists can do. My best friend has claimed this and he is not an apologist.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And yet you have the rise of the early church in a hostile Roman Empire!

A bunch of rag-tag Jewish fisherman with a despised tax-collector thrown into the mix who followed a carpenter from Nazareth around for three years were somehow able to convince people that this man that was crucified was raised from the dead. Not only were they able to convince people from all walks of life from all the surrounding nations to assent to some mere proposition, but inspired people to affirm this confession to the point that many were made to suffer tremendously, even to the point of enduring some of the most extreme and barbarous tortures ever conjured up by the minds of evil men. This rag-tag group of unlearned Jews and many that followed even ended up dying for their claims.

Pretty bizarre for men who knew that Jesus' body was still decomposing somewhere don't ya think?

And yet here we are some two thousand years later talking about this Jewish carpenter.

This despised man who has followers numbering in the billions claiming He was God incarnate to this very day.

Seems to me that Jesus' methods were pretty effective to me.

But hey what do I know.

Out of all human history, he decides to make his first incarnate appearance 2000 years ago. Rather than appearing to all human cultures, he appears to one particular Middle Eastern culture, wherein he finds followers who are supposed to spread his glorious message to the world. The message is so important that they write it down decades after the actual events took place. Over the centuries, the message spreads across some parts of the world, but barely penetrates several cultures. The message even changes between churches, with each church claiming continuity with the original apostolic line. By this century, the message has spread the world over, but there are still billions who are not convinced of its authenticity. It seems like Jesus' (or Paul's) methods were indeed effective for a man who wanted to start a religion, but not effective for a god who wanted to form a relationship with every human being.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I wholeheartedly agree with the assertion that God could choose to communicate in a way which made it impossible to distinguish this communication from one's imagination, in fact, I see nothing at all problematic with saying that in fact God does communicate to us via our imagination at times. If God created us then He most certainly can speak to us in more than one way. Why not our imagination?

You are trying to argue that I need to be concerned about the possibility that what I perceive to be the "voice" of God (here I use "voice" to signify any form of communication God may utilize and not exclusively an audible voice or a thought in one's mind) might in fact be nothing more than my imagination.

But I am not at all troubled by this for the aforementioned reason and in addition I might ask:

Would not God give one who sincerely desires to know Him a means by which he may determine if he really is hearing from Him or some imposter?

I think so.

Wouldn't Satan also want you to believe that you were receiving communications from God when you really weren't? After all, isn't that what you think happens to those of other religions?

 

[paulm50]

And yet here we are some two thousand years later talking about this Jewish carpenter.

As a Jewish carpenter, his achievements are unparalleled. As god, not good enough.

Satan has had more achievements in the last 4,000 years.

 

[paulm50]

I wholeheartedly agree with the assertion that God could choose to communicate in a way which made it impossible to distinguish this communication from one's imagination, in fact, I see nothing at all problematic with saying that in fact God does communicate to us via our imagination at times. If God created us then He most certainly can speak to us in more than one way. Why not our imagination?

You are trying to argue that I need to be concerned about the possibility that what I perceive to be the "voice" of God (here I use "voice" to signify any form of communication God may utilize and not exclusively an audible voice or a thought in one's mind) might in fact be nothing more than my imagination.

But I am not at all troubled by this for the aforementioned reason and in addition I might ask:

Would not God give one who sincerely desires to know Him a means by which he may determine if he really is hearing from Him or some imposter?

I think so.

Did Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, numerous Popes down the years, all go by what the imagined was the best for them? Once we revere one's own thinking, we step into dangeros ground.

Out of all human history, he decides to make his first incarnate appearance 2000 years ago. Rather than appearing to all human cultures, he appears to one particular Middle Eastern culture, wherein he finds followers who are supposed to spread his glorious message to the world. The message is so important that they write it down decades after the actual events took place. Over the centuries, the message spreads across some parts of the world, but barely penetrates several cultures. The message even changes between churches, with each church claiming continuity with the original apostolic line. By this century, the message has spread the world over, but there are still billions who are not convinced of its authenticity. It seems like Jesus' (or Paul's) methods were indeed effective for a man who wanted to start a religion, but not effective for a god who wanted to form a relationship with every human being.

His mission was to save that minor Middle Eastern Culture. Did he achieve that aim? It was Paul and Peter who took it wider. Mostly Peter.

Christianity is the top world religion only because it was adopted by the Europeans. Look where we Europeans went to see it's spread. Much like the spread of Islam and other religions. Conquering armies bring their religion with them.

A god needs only to do what was done at the closing scene of 2010 where a new moon appears. Or come down to Earth and prove he's god. But he could of done that to prevent the Flood, stop Eve from tempting Adam, save Sodom and Gomorrah, persuade Pharaoh to release the Jews, Ask the Canaanite to leave so the Jews can live there. Asked the Muslims to vacate Jerusalem, stop the killings today because Islam is fighting over which way to worship god. And who had the right message.

As a god, the above are easy. As a man made myth, impossible.

 

[KCfromNC]

I wholeheartedly agree with the assertion that God could choose to communicate in a way which made it impossible to distinguish this communication from one's imagination, in fact, I see nothing at all problematic with saying that in fact God does communicate to us via our imagination at times. If God created us then He most certainly can speak to us in more than one way. Why not our imagination?

You are trying to argue that I need to be concerned about the possibility that what I perceive to be the "voice" of God (here I use "voice" to signify any form of communication God may utilize and not exclusively an audible voice or a thought in one's mind) might in fact be nothing more than my imagination.

But I am not at all troubled by this for the aforementioned reason

What reason?

And not only do you have to worry about this all being in your head, you also have worry about the source of the message. How can you tell which messages are from your god instead of from the other competing supernatural beings in the Christian mythology? And that's even assuming your idea of which gods exist is correct. You can't be sure that there's not some evil god tricking you into doing their evil bidding by pretending to be the god you expect to hear from.

Would not God give one who sincerely desires to know Him a means by which he may determine if he really is hearing from Him or some imposter?

Maybe, maybe not. Who are you to put limits on what your god does? You'll see believers who say that a reliable means to know god removes the need for faith. But even if they didn't exist, pretending that you can guess at the motives of a supernatural omnipotent being is pretty risky.