[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

[Davian]

Odin and Loki, represent!

Hey - no clear answers to direct questions. Obfuscate!

 

[bhsmte]

By being honest with yourself and others at all times.

How do you determine if you are being objectively honest with yourself? What is your means of check and balance?

 

[Chriliman]

How do you determine if you are being objectively honest with yourself? What is your means of check and balance?

Its our personal conscience, we all have it, its just some are more numb than others. I'm sure there are things in your life that trigger your conscience every now and then. Like something you said or did, then later you think about it and it kind of bothers you that you said or did that thing. This is your conscience telling you that there is something wrong with what you said or did.

The difference is that those who act on their conscience nudging them to make things right are the honest people and those who ignore their conscience are the dishonest people. We are all capable of being completely honest people, it just takes courage and action.

Consciously choose to act on the nudgings of your conscience and you'll begin to see differences in the way you perceive the world.

 

[paulm50]

God allows deception in order to teach truth.

And from this deception millions die.

God does not want confusion and deception, which is why He sent His son to experience confusion and deception and overcome it by willingly sacrificing himself and conquering it by being raised from the dead. If you put your trust in Jesus you will no longer be confused, the truth will be revealed. God is currently trying to teach you something, you just haven't realized yet what it is he's trying to teach you.

You just said he allows it.

Why ask for trust in something that won't prove itself, sent his son to a minor outpost of the Roman Empire, to save the Children of Israel, and failed in that mission?

True

So you agree the Earth is billions of years old, Noah, Moses, Job are just fables. Paul and Peter are responsible for spreading the message of Christianity. And that Revelations was written by a man very angry with the Romans, living in a cave as a hermit and probably if he did the same today would be in an institution.

You have to ask the right questions and not decide on the answer first.

There's much in the NT we should follow to live better lives, and a lot we should drop and realise they were just the words of men. We have been subject to the Clergy making political decisions with out lives. Heresy, Gays, Marriage, Women Priests, ownership of slaves, land, etc. Even declaring Mary Magdalene as a non person, not a disciple and trying to insinuate she was a prostitute.

This confusion about god has led to the Inquisition, mass murder of Cathars, Knights Templar, Spanish Armada, 30 Years War, burning of heretics, witches and a lot lot more. Just in the Christian faith. I won't even bother to list the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc who are still busy killing each other.

Because. God allows deception in order to teach truth and something that won't prove itself.

God has nothing to teach me. I have led a good life, never knowing hurt or harmed anyone, certainly never killed anyone. Spread love, kindness, happiness and live a full life. He has a lot to teach the people carrying a sword or a gun shouting his name. Whatever that name is for their version of god.

 

[anonymous person]

And from this deception millions die.You just said he allows it.

Why ask for trust in something that won't prove itself, sent his son to a minor outpost of the Roman Empire, to save the Children of Israel, and failed in that mission?So you agree the Earth is billions of years old, Noah, Moses, Job are just fables. Paul and Peter are responsible for spreading the message of Christianity. And that Revelations was written by a man very angry with the Romans, living in a cave as a hermit and probably if he did the same today would be in an institution.

You have to ask the right questions and not decide on the answer first.

There's much in the NT we should follow to live better lives, and a lot we should drop and realise they were just the words of men. We have been subject to the Clergy making political decisions with out lives. Heresy, Gays, Marriage, Women Priests, ownership of slaves, land, etc. Even declaring Mary Magdalene as a non person, not a disciple and trying to insinuate she was a prostitute.

This confusion about god has led to the Inquisition, mass murder of Cathars, Knights Templar, Spanish Armada, 30 Years War, burning of heretics, witches and a lot lot more. Just in the Christian faith. I won't even bother to list the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc who are still busy killing each other.

Because. God allows deception in order to teach truth and something that won't prove itself.

God has nothing to teach me. I have led a good life, never knowing hurt or harmed anyone, certainly never killed anyone. Spread love, kindness, happiness and live a full life. He has a lot to teach the people carrying a sword or a gun shouting his name. Whatever that name is for their version of god.

Do not be put off by what men have done in the name of their various beliefs while on your journey for truth, if indeed you are on such a journey. Misery loves company.

We all can bear witness to how fickle man is and how easily the mob can be stirred by emotion. Many of the same who cried "Hosanna! Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey later cried "crucify Him, crucify Him!"

Many evils have been done in the name of religion, Christianity included. No evil more egregious than the killing of the Son of God by the instigation of the "religious"!

You despise religion. I stand with you in despising it. Christ despised it also and that is why He spent a great deal of time rebuking openly those who were religious at the expense of others.

Look into the life of Christ. There you will find One who alone is so attractive and so altogether lovely that this loveliness like a great magnet, will pull you unto Himself and show you great and marvelous things you did not know were possible.

 

[oldteddybear]

If you can convince someone by words alone ... that person will be swayed to something else later. The difference is the relationship with the one that you have faith in. He cannot see until his eyes are opened and his eyes cannot be opened until after he has already decided to open them.

He has decided to harden his own heart and is totally unwilling to allow anything to soften it. The ONLY way to convince him is to stand back and let God reveal himself to him. He may still reject God as God has stated that he will never force himself on anyone.

 

[jonesdon]

Can anyone determine why my reasoning below with Davian is wrong? If you can't determine why it is wrong, wouldn't it be intelligent to take the same reasoning and apply it to your own life to then truly determine if it is right or wrong for you? ...

 

[jonesdon]

Can anyone determine why my reasoning below with Davian is wrong? If you can't determine why it is wrong, wouldn't it be intelligent to take the same reasoning and apply it to your own life to then truly determine if it is right or wrong for you? ...

=== REPLY: With no response from this website’s webmaster or such, I must assume that this is, in fact, an anti-Christian forum! Only Christian posts are restricted by the Statement of Purpose, as below, on anything even considered to be apologetic or evangelical! So, it appears to me that this is just a trolling anti-Christian site. So, why respond to the email “teasers” (as I have here) when threads, which threaten non-Christian (esp. atheistic) belief, are closed so quickly?

From the Statement of Purpose: "Philosophy of religion is a philosophical study of religion which seeks to discuss questions regarding the nature of religion as a whole, including the nature & existence of God, rather than examining or arguing against the theology of a particular belief system [Like Christianity in “Christian Forms”?]. The philosophy of religion is rational, critical thought & exploration of general religious themes & concepts. Philosophy of religion is focused on investigating religion itself, rather than the truth of any particular religion [ibid].

o The CF Philosophy forum is not intended for general apologetics of Christianity, i.e., the defense of the Christian faith against arguments, objections or attacks from non-Christians. [It is OK for non-Christians to defend their beliefs, though?] Nor is this forum intended as a means for Christian evangelism (persuasion) of unbelievers. … [On the other hand, this is OK for non-Christians?]

 

[Chriliman]

=== REPLY: With no response from this website’s webmaster or such, I must assume that this is, in fact, an anti-Christian forum! Only Christian posts are restricted by the Statement of Purpose, as below, on anything even considered to be apologetic or evangelical! So, it appears to me that this is just a trolling anti-Christian site. So, why respond to the email “teasers” (as I have here) when threads, which threaten non-Christian (esp. atheistic) belief, are closed so quickly?

From the Statement of Purpose: "Philosophy of religion is a philosophical study of religion which seeks to discuss questions regarding the nature of religion as a whole, including the nature & existence of God, rather than examining or arguing against the theology of a particular belief system [Like Christianity in “Christian Forms”?]. The philosophy of religion is rational, critical thought & exploration of general religious themes & concepts. Philosophy of religion is focused on investigating religion itself, rather than the truth of any particular religion [ibid].

o The CF Philosophy forum is not intended for general apologetics of Christianity, i.e., the defense of the Christian faith against arguments, objections or attacks from non-Christians. [It is OK for non-Christians to defend their beliefs, though?] Nor is this forum intended as a means for Christian evangelism (persuasion) of unbelievers. … [On the other hand, this is OK for non-Christians?]

Sorry, have I done something wrong? Does this thread need to be moved somewhere else? All I'm honestly doing is thinking critically about philosophical issues regarding religion in particular the Christian religion, which actually does not claim to be religious. Just the same, atheists do not claim to be religious.

 

[jonesdon]

Sorry, have I done something wrong? Does this thread need to be moved somewhere else? All I'm honestly doing is thinking critically about philosophical issues regarding religion in particular the Christian religion, which actually does not claim to be religious. Just the same, atheists do not claim to be religious.

=== REPLY: No, not unless you are an anti-Christian in disguise -- I.e. really a wolf in one of Christ's sheep's wool. I was referring to how posts that lead a thread to Christian support is quickly cut off in this so-called Christian Forum. No one in charge, if there is anyone, will respond as to why. Hence, several of such threads have been a waste of time for me.

But, you say "the Christian religion ... does not claim to be religious"? Huh? Yes, surely, atheists don't claim to be religious despite their anti-religious doctrine or dogma. Obviously, they can't handle this observed fact.

 

[Chriliman]

=== REPLY: No, not unless you are an anti-Christian in disguise -- I.e. really a wolf in one of Christ's sheep's wool. I was referring to how posts that lead a thread to Christian support is quickly cut off in this so-called Christian Forum. No one in charge, if there is anyone, will respond as to why. Hence, several of such threads have been a waste of time for me.

But, you say "the Christian religion ... does not claim to be religious"? Huh? Yes, surely, atheists don't claim to be religious despite their anti-religious doctrine or dogma. Obviously, they can't handle this observed fact.

Ultimately, all true Christians will come to the same conclusion about truth because God the father will lead them their through the authority of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Christianity is not a religion in the sense that its just a collection of beliefs, but rather Christianity claims Jesus Christ as the Truth. If one accepts this truth as true, they will know the truth and it will set them free.

Athiests simply avoid making truth claims in order to maintain their belief that God does not exist. Sure, they'll say they with hold belief until evidence is provided, but they render themselves unreasonable when they don't accept sound reason to believe the truth, which is that God exists.

Its similar to if you gave me sound reason to believe your telling me the truth and I still refuse to believe you even though there is no sound reason to refuse to believe you, I then become the unreasonable one in the situation.

I assure you I'm not a wolf in sheep's clothing, however, I am on the watch for such people as I'm sure you are as well.

I feel lead to give those who are so confused, sound reasons to believe, but if they still don't believe I leave it to God to judge them.

 

[bhsmte]

Ultimately, all true Christians will come to the same conclusion about truth because God the father will lead them their through the authority of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Christianity is not a religion in the sense that its just a collection of beliefs, but rather Christianity claims Jesus Christ as the Truth. If one accepts this truth as true, they will know the truth and it will set them free.

Athiests simply avoid making truth claims in order to maintain their belief that God does not exist. Sure, they'll say they with hold belief until evidence is provided, but they render themselves unreasonable when they don't accept sound reason to believe the truth, which is that God exists.

Its similar to if you gave me sound reason to believe your telling me the truth and I still refuse to believe you even though there is no sound reason to refuse to believe you, I then become the unreasonable one in the situation.

I assure you I'm not a wolf in sheep's clothing, however, I am on the watch for such people as I'm sure you are as well.

I feel lead to give those who are so confused, sound reasons to believe, but if they still don't believe I leave it to God to judge them.

According to you then, there must be a lot of false Christians, because they disagree on a whole host of theology.

 

[Chriliman]

According to you then, there must be a lot of false Christians, because they disagree on a whole host of theology.

Exactly! And its a true Christians calling to make sure the truth is represented correctly.

 

[bhsmte]

Exactly! And its a true Christians calling to make sure the truth is represented correctly.

What is your test, to determine if someone is a true Christian?

 

[Chriliman]

What is your test, to determine if someone is a true Christian?

If I represent the truth as best I can and then someone disagrees with me, I simply ask them why they disagree and eventually after asking enough honest questions the truth becomes clear. It either becomes true that I was wrong or it becomes true that they are wrong.

 

[bhsmte]

If I represent the truth as best I can and then someone disagrees with me, I simply ask them why they disagree and eventually after asking enough honest questions the truth becomes clear. It either becomes true that I was wrong or it becomes true that they are wrong.

Who determines who is right or wrong?

 

[Chriliman]

Who determines who is right or wrong?

Well not me and not you and not any other human, so who does that leave us with? God. I think you can begin answering a lot of your own questions if you start believing in God because ultimately He'll answer all your questions you just have to ask Him.

 

[bhsmte]

Well not me and not you and not any other human, so who does that leave us with? God. I think you can begin answering a lot of your own questions if you start believing in God because ultimately He'll answer all your questions you just have to ask Him.

If this is the case, it would not appear you are in a position to talk about who is a true Christian or not.

 

[paulm50]

Do not be put off by what men have done in the name of their various beliefs while on your journey for truth, if indeed you are on such a journey. Misery loves company.

I arrived in my journey to the truth. It was either god is happy to see so many of us kill each because of him. Or he doesn't exist. Back in the days of writing bibles, it was claimed he was only to happy to get involved, killing people or helping people kill people.

We all can bear witness to how fickle man is and how easily the mob can be stirred by emotion. Many of the same who cried "Hosanna! Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey later cried "crucify Him, crucify Him!"

Agreed, it's easy to stir the mob. They need proof he exists.

Many evils have been done in the name of religion, Christianity included. No evil more egregious than the killing of the Son of God by the instigation of the "religious"!

And god does nothing. Why?

You despise religion. I stand with you in despising it. Christ despised it also and that is why He spent a great deal of time rebuking openly those who were religious at the expense of others.

I don't despise religion, even though it may sound like that. I despise the strong leaders who tell the weak followers what to do.

Look into the life of Christ. There you will find One who alone is so attractive and so altogether lovely that this loveliness like a great magnet, will pull you unto Himself and show you great and marvelous things you did not know were possible.

Agreed. since him, look at the strong leaders and weak followers who were happy to take up arms to kill, hurt, harm, oppress others. Because their thinking differed, religion, race, tribe or gender.

 

[paulm50]

If you can convince someone by words alone ... that person will be swayed to something else later. The difference is the relationship with the one that you have faith in. He cannot see until his eyes are opened and his eyes cannot be opened until after he has already decided to open them.

He has decided to harden his own heart and is totally unwilling to allow anything to soften it. The ONLY way to convince him is to stand back and let God reveal himself to him. He may still reject God as God has stated that he will never force himself on anyone.

The problem is all religions only have words to use. They have no proof.

What can be proven about religion is it has been used to oppress and kill. It's good work is minor. Early on in our life on Earth, it was essential to keep order, to bond a tribe, to get men to go into battle knowing the afterlife waited for them. Essential to build huge vanity projects like pyramids or cathedrals.

Today what's its role in society? ISIS needs it to gain control of the Middle East, this also applies to many places in the Third World as well. Move those people to the First World, and it isolates them from the rest, makes them alien in the country of their birth. Kurds, Shia, Sunni, Orthodox any religion. The Holocaust was only possible because the jews refused to integrate.

GWB said he was on a mission from god, doubt if many in the West believed him. So what positive affect do religions have on the Western World today?