[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Evidence of the Holy Spirit

[razzelflabben]

As I said before, the saved person who is a HABITUAL AND UNREPENTANT sinner is the one this verse is speaking about.

as in you repeatedly bearing false witness against me and not apologizing for it?

The HABITUAL AND UNREPENTANT sinner has the Holy Spirit within them, but choose to deny this power through their choice to be both an habitual sinner as well as an unrepentent sinner.

well, I still haven't seen you answer my question. So let me ask it yet a different way and see if that helps. If the one who is living with a form of Godliness but denying it's power is in fact, filled with the HS, why would God tell me not to have fellowship with them? Let me see, another way to ask the same question...why would we be told to not fellowship with other believers who have the same HS within them that I have as someone whose live evidences the HS, if the HS is dwelling within them and my fellowship might encourage them to grow in Christ? Remember, we are talking about people who have demonstrated a "talking the talk" so to speak but not "walking the walk".

This is a saved person who lives with little spiritual connection to God.

again, that doesn't answer the question, in fact, rather than answer the question, you try to change the description of the person we are talking about. You didn't change it very well, but I caught the attempted change, hopefully others did to.

BECAUSE if the sinner was repentent, God is faithful and just (not the sinner, but GOD is faithful and GOD is just) in that He promised that He will forgive all sin that we repent of.

again, not the question, just more attempts to avoid answering the question at least that is what it appears like you are doing here.

So, this verse is not talking about a saved person who has repented of any of those qualities or sins in that verse, which is why we need to be careful at how we look at others, because we have no right to judge sin that Jesus Christ has forgiven.

You are the only one offering judgment, I am just asking you a question about the passage.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well what type of sins are you directly speaking about. Like specific examples

I listed them, the ones that applied to the situation, as they came right out of the verse....I'm sure you can read them the first time I wrote them out. As to specifics that would require I provide details that are not mine to give, break confidences that I am holding because of what happened, etc. A list of the specific sins is all that is required and I already provided that...maybe you are reading too fast to really take in what is being said? (notice question mark indicates a question not an accusation.)

 

[razzelflabben]

lol. All I did was respond to what you wrote. To give you further examples of how you write things in a way that maybe are not expressing things in the right way.

look, you can flame me all day long by twisting my words and trying to accuse me falsely, but I won't bite. I am going to continue to live in the power of the HS no matter how sinful you become on this thread. So, maybe, we should just be done, maybe you are incapable of living out the evidence of the HS at least in this thread with me. So be it, your choice....mine is to live above all that sin and so, have a great day, and no you did not respond to what I said and I did clarify just in case you couldn't read well and you still are trying to claim I said something I didn't, that is sinful, that is not living in the power of the HS.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If the one who is living with a form of Godliness but denying it's power is in fact, filled with the HS, why would God tell me not to have fellowship with them? Let me see, another way to ask the same question...why would we be told to not fellowship with other believers who have the same HS within them that I have as someone whose live evidences the HS, if the HS is dwelling within them and my fellowship might encourage them to grow in Christ? Remember, we are talking about people who have demonstrated a "talking the talk" so to speak but not "walking the walk". again, that doesn't answer the question, in fact, rather than answer the question, you try to change the description of the person we are talking about. You didn't change it very well, but I caught the attempted change, hopefully others did to. again, not the question, just more attempts to avoid answering the question at least that is what it appears like you are doing here. You are the only one offering judgment, I am just asking you a question about the passage.

I keep trying to make an important distinction. And that is between a repentent sinner and a sinner who maybe has not yet overcame an area of sin in their lives vs. a habitual (one that can overcome, but chooses not to) and a sinner who is unrepentent.

These are two TOTALLY different children of God.

God cares as much about our hearts and why we do what we do as He does any sin.

You are making this all about the 'sin' per se BUT the love for God is in the heart, if one is becoming sanctified to overcome a sin and if that person's heart is repentent or no.

If we do not make this distinction, then we are turning our back on Godly Christian sinners who are in the process of sanctification and who are weaker (possibly) then us.

And we are told to uphold the weak Christians who have love for God, and who are struggling.

So that' s why I make that distinction and CAUTION as to putting that verse in to action unless it is very, very apparent that they have almost totally rebelled against God. A struggling Christian who loved God needs to be brought back into the fold by those of us who are more mature in Christ. I don't want to see these people shunned.

 

[ToBeLoved]

look, you can flame me all day long by twisting my words and trying to accuse me falsely, but I won't bite. I am going to continue to live in the power of the HS no matter how sinful you become on this thread. So, maybe, we should just be done, maybe you are incapable of living out the evidence of the HS at least in this thread with me. So be it, your choice....mine is to live above all that sin and so, have a great day, and no you did not respond to what I said and I did clarify just in case you couldn't read well and you still are trying to claim I said something I didn't, that is sinful, that is not living in the power of the HS.

I think you have flamed and misrepresented me.

I have only questioned your words and stated my opinion. Instead of you going back and clarifying using your EXACT words, you have chosen to re-write things over and shame me. I am a victim here too. You have falsely accused me. I have requested more than two times for you to go back to your previous posts where your EXACT WORDS were, but you have not but keep accusing me, so I think that you are not being diligent in trying to discover the truth and you are pretending that what you previously wrote does not exist as you move on and change words around.

 

[razzelflabben]

I keep trying to make an important distinction. And that is between a repentent sinner and a sinner who maybe has not yet overcame an area of sin in their lives vs. a habitual (one that can overcome, but chooses not to) and a sinner who is unrepentent.

yet the only one we are talking about is the one found in II Tim., which is the one you refuse to talk about.

 

[ToBeLoved]

yet the only one we are talking about is the one found in II Tim., which is the one you refuse to talk about.

I have been talking about II Timothy. I have been talking about how we look at others that are God's children and how do we know if they are one who denies godliness. Because a repentant sinner does NOT deny godliness. A repentant sinner embraces God for the forgiveness of sin.

Do you not see that the phrase 'denies godliness' is key to that verse. And that a repentant sinner is not being ungodly? If a Christian sinner repents than they are doing exactly what Christ has asked them to do when they sin. I don't know that you see the difference between a repented sinner that is saved and an unrepented sinner who is saved.

Or do you think that even both can exist?

 

[razzelflabben]

I think you have flamed and misrepresented me.

I have only questioned your words and stated my opinion. Instead of you going back and clarifying using your EXACT words, you have chosen to re-write things over and shame me. I am a victim here too. You have falsely accused me. I have requested more than two times for you to go back to your previous posts where your EXACT WORDS were, but you have not but keep accusing me, so I think that you are not being diligent in trying to discover the truth and you are pretending that what you previously wrote does not exist as you move on and change words around.

what accusation do you think I need to apologize for? Quote from my posts what accusation I levied and if you can show it is a legit accusation and not just a "this is what it sounds like to me" then the apology will be swift in coming.

Now, as you my clarifying, it is not necessary on a public forum to review exact wording when someone misreads the intent, what is necessary is clarifications as in "you aren't understanding what I am saying." and then rewording it so that it is understood. to continue to misrepresent because you want to quibble over some semantics is a form of false accusation and is in fact flaming.

 

[razzelflabben]

something that few people take time to think about and I offer now for those following to think on today, is that
living out Christ, a life of obedience is Christ's testimony to the world that He is in fact the Living God that Loves with a passion and zeal unlike anything this world can fathom. Without our life testimony, all the world can see is empty words and hollow promises.

Just some food for thought

 

[ToBeLoved]

dup.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am sorry.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let's try this again.

What is the specific question that you are asking me about the verse in II Timothy?

 

[razzelflabben]

I have been talking about II Timothy. I have been talking about how we look at others that are God's children and how do we know if they are one who denies godliness. Because a repentant sinner does NOT deny godliness. A repentant sinner embraces God for the forgiveness of sin.

Do you not see that the phrase 'denies godliness' is key to that verse. And that a repentant sinner is not being ungodly? If a Christian sinner repents than they are doing exactly what Christ has asked them to do when they sin. I don't know that you see the difference between a repented sinner that is saved and an unrepented sinner who is saved.

Or do you think that even both can exist?

How do you not know that II Tim. is not talking about the believer who slips up once, sins and then repents? Yet the example that you keep questioning from my testimony talked about those that repeatedly sinned, refused to repent, refused to reconcile and you still tell me that I am wrong, that they aren't these people talked about in II Tim. How would you know when I listed the sins straight out of the passage that to this day they continue to live in? People you don't know, a situation you don't know or understand, yet you offer judgment because (presumably from your posts) it makes you uncomfortable that some people claim belief but fail to live in the power of the HS, a power that is evidenced through the fruit of the spirit and obedience to God. IOW's if you are reading what is said and not reading into it what is not here, how can you possibly see the list of sins that remain unrepentant in the group of people I am referring to and still suggest that they are just repenting of the one sin they committed and never offer an answer as to why you think if they were repentant that we should follow scripture and avoid them.

 

[razzelflabben]

If that is your point of view than I am sorry.

When I speak about the Lord and most specifically what is needed for Salvation to spend eternity in heaven, rather than eternity in hell, then I am into semantics. I don't think I'll ever change that. Yes, I am specific. Very specific. But I also think that Paul was very specific and so was my Lord when his words were being recorded. I believe with all my heart that the Word is fairly specific and that those specifics are important.

Please accept my apology that I closely followed your exact wording and maybe didn't get the higher level viewpoint of what you were trying to say. I will remember this when we speak in the future to be more peaceful.

my words were very specific and your attempt to flame me yet again is not successful...have a good day.

 

[ToBeLoved]

How do you not know that II Tim. is not talking about the believer who slips up once, sins and then repents? Yet the example that you keep questioning from my testimony talked about those that repeatedly sinned, refused to repent, refused to reconcile and you still tell me that I am wrong, that they aren't these people talked about in II Tim. How would you know when I listed the sins straight out of the passage that to this day they continue to live in? People you don't know, a situation you don't know or understand, yet you offer judgment because (presumably from your posts) it makes you uncomfortable that some people claim belief but fail to live in the power of the HS, a power that is evidenced through the fruit of the spirit and obedience to God. IOW's if you are reading what is said and not reading into it what is not here, how can you possibly see the list of sins that remain unrepentant in the group of people I am referring to and still suggest that they are just repenting of the one sin they committed and never offer an answer as to why you think if they were repentant that we should follow scripture and avoid them.

What I am trying to say is that each of us have strengths and weaknesses. And there are certain sins that I struggle with after years and years. I slip up many, many times on this specific sin. But that does not mean that I do not want to overcome it. That is my point.

If we say the the person or anyone that II Timothy is describing is someone who commits the same sin once or twice or even more times than twice, that we should not use sin as an indicator at all unless it is so very aparent, because people have different struggles and some struggles take more time to overcome than others in different people and we cannot really know what the circumstances are very well what is really going on.

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[razzelflabben]

Let's try this again.

What is the specific question that you are asking me about the verse in II Timothy?

Let me see if I can think up another way to ask the same question...thinking...thinking....okay, I don't know if this is a different way of saying it or not, but here goes yet again....if II Tim. is referring to those people who commit a sin then repent of it rather than those that refuse to repent and live as if they never knew that obedience was part of the believers life, then why does scripture tell us to avoid these people? Wouldn't the instruction to avoid them, be God saying, they are doing more than just committing a random sin and repenting of it, righting themselves with me, because repentance and forgiveness is part of the power of the HS within, isn't it? So your assertion that II Tim. is referring to those that commit a random sin then repent of it and continue living in the power of the indwelling HS seems a bit misplaced given what the passage tells us....so, another way to word it, how is II Tim. consistent with those that you claim commit a random, occasional sin then repent of that sin and go on into a deeper walk with the Lord? I don't know, at this point I am out of ways to ask the same question especially since you haven't even attempted to answer it thus far.

 

[razzelflabben]

What I am trying to say is that each of us have strengths and weaknesses. And there are certain sins that I struggle with after years and years. I slip up many, many times on this specific sin. But that does not mean that I do not want to overcome it. That is my point.

that doesn't answer the question...nor does it attempt to.

As to the point you are making, we all have sins that we struggle with, that is what temptation is all about, but, in the power of the indwelling HS that bondage that thing has over us can and is in God's time completely broken, and thus, no longer a problem. But you see, according to scripture, struggling against that sin, is part of our learning process and should not be lightly dismissed. But again, this digresses from the accusation to came to me with about the people I was referring to and as I showed you, they had many of the sins, in fact, most of the sins listed in the II Tim. passage and almost 2 years later still have not offered reconciliation, which btw, is one of the sins listed, being irreconcilable. So, since you were the one who wanted to take me to task on the issue, you need to stay on topic and talk about those people described in II Tim. to date you refuse to explain why we would be told to avoid those people who are dealing with their sins according to scripture.

If we say the the person or anyone that II Timothy is describing is someone who commits the same sin once or twice or even more times than twice, that we should not use sin as an indicator at all unless it is so very aparent, because people have different struggles and some struggles take more time to overcome than others in different people and we cannot really know what the circumstances are very well what is really going on.

see above, you are still playing the avoid the question game in your posts.

 

[razzelflabben]

You must be exceptional

naw, just passionate about knowing and learning all I can about the real God of the bible not the God I want Him to be or the God I am told He is. Just passionate about obeying Him even when He says, right now I am calling you to study and teach and wanting to do that to the best of my ability. Just passionate about my Lord and King and knowing Him as fully as I can and passionate about allowing Him to not just know every part of me, every inch of me, but passionate about allowing HIm to transform every part, every inch of me into His image no matter the cost. Nothing more than what every single believer should be.

And as to your assertions, if you read what I said, I said God's word in 100% 100% not my words. To that end, I allow everything I teach to be tested and challenged not just before I teach it but also while I teach it, so that I can have 5 different methods of making sure I have it right so as not to be responsible for leading anyone astray. If that means I never teach falsely, bravo God, but that is not a boast I am willing to make because I know how hard it is to be sure of what we think and how hard it can be to change our ideas. So, no my boast is not that I am 100% 100% my boast is that God is and His word is, and as long as He is the one teaching through me, than yes, so am I but it is not I but Christ in me, the HS's teaching that is right 100% 100% and where I am now sure I have been clear at least 3 times now, I expect that the issue can be dropped as covered and satisfied that I am not boasting in myself. God gave me an amazing gift of calling and equipping to study and teach right now, full time, and that is what I plan on doing to the very best of my ability no matter who might object.

That being said, I already accepted your apology, I just wanted to make sure it was painfully clear what I said so that anyone who might read this would not confuse what I said with what you said about me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

naw, just passionate about knowing and learning all I can about the real God of the bible not the God I want Him to be or the God I am told He is. Just passionate about obeying Him even when He says, right now I am calling you to study and teach and wanting to do that to the best of my ability. Just passionate about my Lord and King and knowing Him as fully as I can and passionate about allowing Him to not just know every part of me, every inch of me, but passionate about allowing HIm to transform every part, every inch of me into His image no matter the cost. Nothing more than what every single believer should be.

And as to your assertions, if you read what I said, I said God's word in 100% 100% not my words. To that end, I allow everything I teach to be tested and challenged not just before I teach it but also while I teach it, so that I can have 5 different methods of making sure I have it right so as not to be responsible for leading anyone astray. If that means I never teach falsely, bravo God, but that is not a boast I am willing to make because I know how hard it is to be sure of what we think and how hard it can be to change our ideas. So, no my boast is not that I am 100% 100% my boast is that God is and His word is, and as long as He is the one teaching through me, than yes, so am I but it is not I but Christ in me, the HS's teaching that is right 100% 100% and where I am now sure I have been clear at least 3 times now, I expect that the issue can be dropped as covered and satisfied that I am not boasting in myself. God gave me an amazing gift of calling and equipping to study and teach right now, full time, and that is what I plan on doing to the very best of my ability no matter who might object.

That being said, I already accepted your apology, I just wanted to make sure it was painfully clear what I said so that anyone who might read this would not confuse what I said with what you said about me.

I like passionate people. If we cannot be passionate about our God then what in this world is worth being passionate for.