[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[Freodin]

Don't ignore the true evil in this world. The fact that you're here seeking truth, gives me hope that you'll find the Truth or rather the truth will find you.

Don't try to excuse this. Don't try to relativate it. Don't try to escape your responsibility!

Oh, so you don't mean me personally. You don't mean me when you talk about those who don't value the truth, but are evil and unrighteous. You have hope that I am amongst the chosen, who will find the truth! How sweet of you!

I have been on this forum for over a decade. I view my old posts, once in a while, for fun. And I found that I am remarkably consistent in my views and positions over this time... and beyond, to a time before this forum or the internet at all.

Now I am still young, I could get all the years I already had again. You can still have hope.


But then I die, and perhaps someone, somewhere will post an obituary here: he was an upright and outspoken atheist till his last breath.

And, whoopsy-daisy, the hope is lost. Yep, will Criliman say: he was evil. Never any interest in the truth. Not chosen, not worthy.

And this position is what you think about the vast majority of all humans that have ever lived and will ever live... like my grandfather for example.


I have a strong desire, right now, to tell you how I feel about you. But I don't want to get banned.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Rocks are rocks, because its reasonable to believe this based on the knowledge we have gained about rocks, but show me a rock before I knew what a rock is and I'd be like what's that?

You'd call it "it" or "that." We both could. It is what is, and will not cease to be what it is because of your lack of awareness of what it is. So say you were taught to call it a cake and I was taught to call it a shoe. Subjectively what we call it changes it but that doesn't change the reality that it is what it is.

I believe a rock is a rock even if I'm not there to perceive it.

That's my point summed up rather nicely. Whether it is perceived or not, it won't change. It is what it is.

And we have no reason to assume it will change.

 

[Chriliman]

Don't try to excuse this. Don't try to relativate it. Don't try to escape your responsibility!

Oh, so you don't mean me personally. You don't mean me when you talk about those who don't value the truth, but are evil and unrighteous. You have hope that I am amongst the chosen, who will find the truth! How sweet of you!

I have been on this forum for over a decade. I view my old posts, once in a while, for fun. And I found that I am remarkably consistent in my views and positions over this time... and beyond, to a time before this forum or the internet at all.

Now I am still young, I could get all the years I already had again. You can still have hope.


But then I die, and perhaps someone, somewhere will post an obituary here: he was an upright and outspoken atheist till his last breath.

And, whoopsy-daisy, the hope is lost. Yep, will Criliman say: he was evil. Never any interest in the truth. Not chosen, not worthy.

And this position is what you think about the vast majority of all humans that have ever lived and will ever live... like my grandfather for example.


I have a strong desire, right now, to tell you how I feel about you. But I don't want to get banned.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Do you want the way you feel about me to take my hope away?

 

[Chriliman]

You'd call it "it" or "that." We both could. It is what is, and will not cease to be what it is because of your lack of awareness of what it is. So say you were taught to call it a cake and I was taught to call it a shoe. Subjectively what we call it changes it but that doesn't change the reality that it is what it is.



That's my point summed up rather nicely. Whether it is perceived or not, it won't change. It is what it is.

And we have no reason to assume it will change.

Right, and this is how I regard God. Whether God is perceived or not, God won't change. He is who He says He is. I understand you don't believe this, but I do and so do millions of other believers. I also understand that just because we believe something, doesn't make it true, but I'd be unreasonable not to believe it because I've been provided with evidence, but just like you can't provide physical evidence of your consciousness, I can't provide physical evidence of God, yet the evidence exists and I believe it.

 

[dlamberth]

Subjective yes. But it's mostly mental. I could go on a very bad trip and start hearing my keyboard talk to me. Doesn't make that real either.

Its funny that you should bring that up. A very close musician friend tells me that his piano does talk to him when he plays it. He's concert trained and is very attuned to his instrument.

It's clear that you don't know the world of the Shaman.

.

 

[Freodin]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Do you want the way you feel about me to take my hope away?

I want you to stop insulting my grandfather. How about that?

 

[Chriliman]

I want you to stop insulting my grandfather. How about that?

Honestly, not my intention at all

 

[Freodin]

Honestly, not my intention at all

You might not intent it, but you do. And you don't seem to care.

What are you going to do about that?

 

[Eudaimonist]

but just like you can't provide physical evidence of your consciousness

You can provide physical evidence to me that you are conscious simply by responding to posts in this thread. If you weren't conscious of the posts here, how would you be responding? It is certainly enough evidence for me to draw the proper inference.

I can't provide physical evidence of God

Because God is all in your mind? All of the evidence is purely subjective and mental?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chriliman]

You might not intent it, but you do. And you don't seem to care.

What are you going to do about that?

Well, I haven't directly insulted your grandfather, so it seems unreasonable to say that I'm insulting him. I am sorry that you're feeling the way that you do, but what it shows me is that your feeling convicted and your blaming me for your conviction, when in all actuality I have no control over you or your convictions.

 

[Freodin]

Well, I haven't directly insulted your grandfather, so it seems unreasonable to say that I'm insulting him. I am sorry that you're feeling the way that you do, but what it shows me is that your feeling convicted and your blaming me for your conviction, when in all actuality I have no control over you or your convictions.

You mean... insult enough people at once, and you can ignore it and blame the insulted for feeling insulted.

Let me just ask you: when you talk about "Those who are not worthy of being chosen are not worthy because they never valued truth, but only chose deception and fully submitted to wickedness and evil instead of righteousness and truth.", just who do you mean?

You don't mean anyone specific, do you? Not my grandfather, not the friendly muslim woman living next to me, not the gay couple that runs the florist shop... but who do you mean?

You cannot make a sweeping general insulting and aggravating statement like the one you made... and not mean anything specific. And then excuse yourself from your responsibility by talking about "oh, you are feeling convicted".

I can see that you don't feel convicted. Yes, feel the Christian love!

Over and out. Dealing with people like you is bad for my blood pressure.

 

[paulm50]

Fundamental miss understanding. Jesus didn't come to convert the entire world, He came to fulfill God's will and drawing God's chosen back to Himself. If you are one of God's chosen, you will be drawn back to Him.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Exactly, if he god had intended the whole world to come to him, he would of chosen a better way to do it. The pity is god's chosen, the Jews, never came back.

 

[Chriliman]

You can provide physical evidence to me that you are conscious simply by responding to posts in this thread. If you weren't conscious of the posts here, how would you be responding? It is certainly enough evidence for me to draw the proper inference.

You still do not have direct physical evidence because my consciousness is not physical. I can interact with the physical and show you that I'm conscious, but this isn't direct physical evidence of my non-physical consciousness, therefore, you must accept it as true that I am conscious.

 

[Davian]

He chooses those who are worthy of being chosen. Those who are not worthy of being chosen are not worthy because they never valued truth, but only chose deception and fully submitted to wickedness and evil instead of righteousness and truth.

I see where Freodin was going with this. Do you really feel that people, like myself and my children, that do not believe as you do, are really that evil and wicked? Is that what you think?

 

[madera23]

Don't try to excuse this. Don't try to relativate it. Don't try to escape your responsibility!

Oh, so you don't mean me personally. You don't mean me when you talk about those who don't value the truth, but are evil and unrighteous. You have hope that I am amongst the chosen, who will find the truth! How sweet of you!

I have been on this forum for over a decade. I view my old posts, once in a while, for fun. And I found that I am remarkably consistent in my views and positions over this time... and beyond, to a time before this forum or the internet at all.

Now I am still young, I could get all the years I already had again. You can still have hope.


But then I die, and perhaps someone, somewhere will post an obituary here: he was an upright and outspoken atheist till his last breath.

And, whoopsy-daisy, the hope is lost. Yep, will Criliman say: he was evil. Never any interest in the truth. Not chosen, not worthy.

And this position is what you think about the vast majority of all humans that have ever lived and will ever live... like my grandfather for example.


I have a strong desire, right now, to tell you how I feel about you. But I don't want to get banned.

In other words you havent grown.
neither has your opponent.
typical bully and coward.
has the moderator left the room?

 

[Chriliman]

I see where Freodin was going with this. Do you really feel that people, like myself and my children, that do not believe as you do, are really that evil and wicked? Is that what you think?

No, you don't seem evil and wicked to me. You seem like a reasonable person who just happens to be on a Christian forum, learning about Christian beliefs. If you don't like what your learning, no one is forcing you to stay, all I ask is that you consider what I'm saying and make your own choices.

If you choose to attack me for my beliefs, well thats your choice I can't stop you. I just would never attack anyone for their beliefs, because it seems pointless, why would I attack anyone for what they believe when I know I can't force anyone to change what they believe?

 

[Chriliman]

In other words you havent grown.
neither has your opponent.
typical bully and coward.
has the moderator left the room?

Thanks, Madera23

This is an example of a direct insult, but it doesn't bother me too much, because I have the power of forgiveness.

 

[Davian]

...

I can see that you don't feel convicted. Yes, feel the Christian love!

Over and out. Dealing with people like you is bad for my blood pressure.

This is one of the reasons I come here. It is rare that I encounter this religious stuff in the real world, and the first time I did - only a few years ago - I was completely taken aback, and unable to respond. It is in these forums I can explore their claims, to see if there is anything to them.

"I used to be disgusted; now I try to be amused." - Elvis Costello

 

[paulm50]

and they are astounding miracles that changes the physical and psychological understanding of our human
natures, guiding us to be one with the creator, one mind not confused by the world.

Proof please

There are no words that can explain it, it can only be understood by experiencing it .

Does that mean there is none you can show?

So all the demanding by atheists or humanists to explain with words how God works is a waste of time.
Hunger to understand and you may get your superfluous questions answered.
Madera

Again the answer turns out to be. To see the unseeable, you have to believe what I say is true.

I can illustrate that the way we are created is in opposition to what the bible, and later clergy taught.

Research how our bodies work sexually and you will see the conflict very clearly. You can claim Satan instilled lust into us. That opens the can of worms that god allowed satan to do this, or satan is more powerful.

Did you know when we see an attractive person of the gender we are attracted to, our body releases pheromones into us that lower our inhibitions, that a woman is more attractive when ovulating, that smell and taste have a lot to do with sexual arousal? There's a lot more, all pointing away from what the bible teaches.

So yes the bible does attempt to change the physical and psychological understanding of our human
natures. In opposition to the way we were made, or as you believe the way god created us. And you don't have to take my word for this, it's all online.

 

[Davian]

No, you don't seem evil and wicked to me. You seem like a reasonable person who just happens to be on a Christian forum, learning about Christian beliefs.
...

Then, in post #825, at whom were your comments directed?