Would you say that all "intelligent" life is purposed to take a certain form?

[Shemjaza]

There are a lot in genetics. Unfortunately I don't have any of them off my head.

There are also a lot in geology. I can give you one which is a hot news recently: The origin of Pluto. The Pluto is NOT, absolutely NOT formed as it was taught in science classes. Science pretends to know the origin of planets around the sun. In fact, science knows nothing, absolutely nothing.

As I said, I'll take "there are lots" with a grain of salt. Given how certain you were a moment ago, I won't be holding my breath.

I actually studied planet formation at university and it's by no means a slam dunk, but "nothing" is ridiculously wrong. Why were predictions about gas giant moon patterns confirmed by the Voyager probe if the models for planet formation were useless?

Also, I'm feeling a little whiplash from the jerk from biological evolution to Pluto.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yet none of them can build cities or mass-produce and make cars or make and use computers, I'm talking about the kind of intelligence that let's us predict and observe the beginnings and ends of the universe, that teaches us about mathematics and physics that allow us to predict and discover the worlds of the very large, and the very small, and utilizes that knowledge to advance itself, the kind of intelligence that dominates and is not controlled by it's environment, the kind of intelligence that allows us to perceive things like Gods...

That kind of intelligence takes a certain form, don't you think?

God Bless!

'Personally----no--those kinds of things are things done on this world, in this galaxy, with our physical laws. Other galaxies may have other byproducts of intelligence that far exceed ours without having our limitations. I do however believe that this galaxy is pretty much quarantined from the rest of the universe due to the fall. I believe we are the only ones that fell. But nothing in the bible says anything like that. Apparently, God loves creating, and I very much doubt He started and ended with us. Anyone that makes no 2 snowflakes alike loves variety too much to quite creating. That'd be like Michelangelo being able to only make the David.

 

[Neogaia777]

So, what evolution factors make us have free hands?
Why don't these factors work on other animals?

Well, apes and chimps had they learned to master fire, and spear and bow-making, and learned to fish (all of which requires a certain intelligence) they probably would have evolved into a form similar to ours, BUT my point being, it WOULD BE A FORM SIMILAR TO OURS...

You ask some questions in your other posts as to why not four arms, or four legs and two arms, and wings, and my answer would be that evolution seems destined or purposefully "purposed" by an intelligent designer to take a certain form, that "form" being very close to humanoid, evolution is NOT RANDOM, but seems purposed by an intelligent designer to go a certain course...

God Bless!

 

[juvenissun]

As I said, I'll take "there are lots" with a grain of salt. Given how certain you were a moment ago, I won't be holding my breath.

I actually studied planet formation at university and it's by no means a slam dunk, but "nothing" is ridiculously wrong. Why were predictions about gas giant moon patterns confirmed by the Voyager probe if the models for planet formation were useless?

Also, I'm feeling a little whiplash from the jerk from biological evolution to Pluto.

You asked for something. I gave you something. You rejected it.
I guess that should be the end of it.

 

[juvenissun]

Well, apes and chimps had they learned to master fire, and spear and bow-making, and learned to fish (all of which requires a certain intelligence) they probably would have evolved into a form similar to ours, BUT my point being, it WOULD BE A FORM SIMILAR TO OURS...

You ask some questions in your other posts as to why not four arms, or four legs and two arms, and wings, and my answer would be that evolution seems destined or purposefully "purposed" by an intelligent designer to take a certain form, that "form" being very close to humanoid, evolution is NOT RANDOM, but seems purposed by an intelligent designer to go a certain course...

God Bless!

The combination of human shape and human wisdom MUST have some superior advantages and it could not be replace by other options. I wish I could know what are the mechanism involved in that.

For example, human may wish to fly like birds. But if that indeed happened, there could be more disadvantages than advantages. I just don't know why.

 

[Mystman]

You ask some questions in your other posts as to why not four arms, or four legs and two arms, and wings, and my answer would be that evolution seems destined or purposefully "purposed" by an intelligent designer to take a certain form, that "form" being very close to humanoid, evolution is NOT RANDOM, but seems purposed by an intelligent designer to go a certain course...

It's hard to change a body plan. First, there are low-level systems (acting inside a embryo when it's just a blob of cells) that determine what becomes the top/bottom and what becomes the left/right, and that then say that every combination of top/bottom/left/right gets a limb, and that forming limb then influences how all the stuff around it develops (the muscles, bones, etc..). Changing those low-level systems so that they (consistently!) produce extra limbs is pretty unlikely. Second, those extra limbs actually need to be useful right away. Imagine that you have an extra leg dangling out of you, that does not have a hip as a support structure so that it's basically a useless waste of energy. Is that extra leg very likely to be an advantage when trying to get kids? No it isn't so, even if you get a fluke mutation producing an extra leg that somehow doesn't completely mess up the rest of your development, natural selection will weed it out again, unless it immediately is an improvement over the normal 2 legged situation. Not very likely.

For the same kind reasoning, species don't tend to evolve an extra spine, or an extra digestive tract.

Anyway to answer the primary question in your opening post: no. It seems reasonable to suggest that the evolution of (really) intelligent life requires systems capable of advanced manipulation of the environment, but that does not need to come in the form of 2 arms / 2 legs / 2 hands. It wouldn't surprise me if 500 million years from now land-dwelling octopuses have enslaved us all with their tentacle skills.

 

[[serious]]

The combination of human shape and human wisdom MUST have some superior advantages and it could not be replace by other options. I wish I could know what are the mechanism involved in that.

For example, human may wish to fly like birds. But if that indeed happened, there could be more disadvantages than advantages. I just don't know why.

Why could human style wisdom not exist in a different body structure? I'm also not sure what you mean by human wisdom. What are the differences in dolphin intelligence and human intelligence that you feel are relevant to your point?

 

[Shemjaza]

You asked for something. I gave you something. You rejected it.
I guess that should be the end of it.

I asked for evidence of an evolutionary barrier to speciation (that you had just asserted existed)... you gave me a falsehood about planet formation.

If I ask for an ice cream and you hand me a half empty bottle of car deodorant, you could still say "You asked for something. I gave you something." and it would be equally meaningless.

 

[juvenissun]

Why could human style wisdom not exist in a different body structure? I'm also not sure what you mean by human wisdom. What are the differences in dolphin intelligence and human intelligence that you feel are relevant to your point?

As a human, you should not ask this question.

 

[juvenissun]

I asked for evidence of an evolutionary barrier to speciation (that you had just asserted existed)... you gave me a falsehood about planet formation.

That means you reject my evidence without a reason. So, suit yourself.

 

[juvenissun]

For the same kind reasoning, species don't tend to evolve an extra spine, or an extra digestive tract.

Why not? Is evolution process random?

 

[Shemjaza]

That means you reject my evidence without a reason. So, suit yourself.

What evidence. Seriously.

You claim there are barriers to speciation then you make some incorrect assertions astronomy... the end.
That is not evidence.

 

[Shemjaza]

double reply, sorry.

 

[juvenissun]

What evidence. Seriously.

You claim there are barriers to speciation then you make some incorrect assertions astronomy... the end.
That is not evidence.

I never said anything about speciation on Pluto.

 

[juvenissun]

double reply, sorry.

Pluto is an evidence that the current knowledge of planet formation is WRONG.
And we do not have one to replace it.

The Bible has one.

 

[Shemjaza]

Pluto is an evidence that the current knowledge of planet formation is WRONG.
And we do not have one to replace it.

The Bible has one.

No Pluto is a mystery. Pluto's orbit was already evidence that it was a captured object.

And, you continue this farcical distraction. Or are you willing to admit, you have no evidence for a barrier to speciation?

 

[juvenissun]

No Pluto is a mystery. Pluto's orbit was already evidence that it was a captured object.

And, you continue this farcical distraction. Or are you willing to admit, you have no evidence for a barrier to speciation?

What I give (easily) is an evidence to the barrier of the basic principle of evolution. (please do not say speciation again. I do not know that word.)

 

[Shemjaza]

What I give (easily) is an evidence to the barrier of the basic principle of evolution. (please do not say speciation again. I do not know that word.)

No, you haven't. You said you forgot what the barrier was and started talking about astronomy.

Populations divide, once two populations can no longer normally reproduce they are two separate species... then speciation has occurred. If this happens many, many times over a very long period of time you can end up with creatures as different as trees and elephants.

 

[[serious]]

As a human, you should not ask this question.

Why not?

 

[dgiharris]

Yet none of them can build cities or mass-produce and make cars or make and use computers, I'm talking about the kind of intelligence that let's us predict and observe the beginnings and ends of the universe, that teaches us about mathematics and physics that allow us to predict and discover the worlds of the very large, and the very small, and utilizes that knowledge to advance itself, the kind of intelligence that dominates and is not controlled by it's environment, the kind of intelligence that allows us to perceive things like Gods...

That kind of intelligence takes a certain form, don't you think?

God Bless!

Absolutely not. This is the height of hubris, that in the entire universe all intelligent beings simply must look like us?

On our tiny little plant we have such a diversity of life, not only do we have such diversity of life, but there is a lot of psuedo-intelligent life that takes on such a wide variety of shapes.

Sure, we are at the top of the intelligence ladder, but it quickly balloons a rung or two down the ladder.

Octopuses, Ravens , Apes, Whales are all in the same ball park intelligence wise. They have displayed tool use in the wild and even rudimentary language and even the ability to pass learned knowledge from one generation to the next. Not only that, but they problem solve and pass that knowledge onto newer generations (i.e. how killer whales hunt and spread the new technique for killing/hunting great white sharks).

And if you want to get really strange, look at the intelligence displayed by ants. If you want to talk engineering and logistics, there are ant colonies out there that have arguably surpassed mankind in engineering and logistics up until very recently (we barely caught up to them a century or so ago).

It is just the height of hubris to think that intelligent life has to look like us. That is just ridiculous.