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Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

'Once Saved Always Saved': Fact or Fiction?

  • Fact.

  • Fiction.


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MikeEnders

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In fact the absolute TRUTH of GOD is relative to how each one of us wants to perceive it, and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling is what we ARE CALLED to do...

Now THATS cultic. The absolute truth of God is relative to how each one of us perceives it eh? Nope. truth matters. Tired of people trying to pretend like truth isn't what Christianity is about. Message denied

NOT working out everyone else's so we can (play GOD) which by the way does nothing but cause us to be lifted with self pride that we can't even see when we attempt to venture into judgements about our fellow human beings that belong only to HIM....

Would that include you playing God telling people what they should and should not discuss? Always in these get on the soapbox moments the one person who is calling every one else full of self pride is the one with their chest out the furthest. They never fail to miss their own pride and judgment of others in the process of their pointless accusatory lecture.

Even when they are screaming with caps they miss themselves in the mirror
 
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Elionai

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I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?

I voted fiction for the following reasons: and yes I realise these points has been made elsewhere in the thread.

  1. Because while I believe nothing can separate us from God's love, I realise that this is directional; from God to us.
    In the opposite direction, we can be VERY closed off to God's love even when we believe in Him. I also believe and know that believers can walk away from His love and end up doing things that utterly contradict a 'saved' life. This I believe is the instance in which the OSAS thinking is dangerous.
  2. Expert Bible teacher David Pawson has this to say on the subject:
    Another characteristic of false prophecy is to make light of the sin in God’s people, as if those who are the ‘elect’, the chosen of God, are eternally secure no matter what their moral or spiritual condition and will not be required to face personal suffering. The cliché ‘Once saved always saved’, a phrase which never occurs in scripture, encourages this kind of thinking. Jesus makes it quite clear that this is not the case. ‘He who stands firm to the end will be saved’ (Matt 10:22; 24:13). Apostasy, the public denial of Christ in word or deed forfeits future salvation. ‘But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my father in heaven’ (Matt 10:33). The book of Revelation takes the same line. The ‘overcomers’ will inherit the new heaven and earth but the ‘cowardly’ will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 21:7–8).
    - from chapter one of "When Jesus Returns" by David Pawson
One case where salvation is surprisingly not at risk is bad bible teaching. James, the head of the believing community in Jerusalem states that bad teachers will be the least in heaven. Now, I don't claim to know how that system will work in the Olam HaBa (the world to come/God's Kingdom in full) but I know from that passage their salvation is not at risk, just their, dare I say, 'rank' in the Kingdom.
 
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JLB777

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Please provide verses to support your theories.

Here are the verse's if scripture -

If they become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and depart from God.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Our faith must continue steadfast unto the end.

If we depart from God in unbelief, then we no longer have the substance of the thing we are hoping for.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR...


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrew 11:1

Faith is what you have, until you obtain the thing you are hoping for.

That is why in so many places we are warned about about falling into unbelief by becoming hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

This is what the scripture above teaches so clearly.

No faith = No salvation.

If we are not a part of Christ, then like the branches who do not abide in the Vine who is the source of life for the branches, then we will die.

Now it's up to you to prove from the scriptures that we have eternal life apart from Faith in Christ.


JLB
 
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Light of the East

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Uh . . . that's not the RCC it's referring to.

It certainly isn't the Presbyterian or Baptist Church or any of those who sprung out of the Reformation. So who is it then if not the Church which was established under the authority of the Apostles and came to be called "katholicos" (universal) by the start of the second century?
 
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Light of the East

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I have provided multiple passages (which I note you have buried your head in the sand to avoid) and will discuss the entire bible anytime but what I won't abide is someone identifying with a religion that prays to someone besides God and Christ calling ME cultic. Thats just too much of a laugher.

If your passages contradict other passages in the Bible, then there is a conflict, and therefore, someone has misinterpreted what is there. Given that the Church is the "pillar and ground" of the truth, I will go with the Church rather than some Johnny-Come-Lately Protestant assembly that just started 100 years ago.
 
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Light of the East

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Salvation is a free gift. It is so free, so absolutely having nothing to do with anything that resembles "works" that it is even given to little children. Just like in the Old Covenant, the New Covenant offers the immense grace of God by bringing into the Kingdom those children of Kingdom members. Parents who are members of the Kingdom bring their babies to the baptismal font and through baptism, the child receives God's grace to be entered into union with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and be made a covenant member of the covenant Kingdom.

Such action on the part of God, without the slightest response from the baby, points to grace that is dependent upon nothing other than God's mercy. However, being saved in such a manner does not confer eternal life. It only gives the Holy Spirit as a downpayment:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An "earnest" is a downpayment. It is not the full amount. It is part of the whole, given as a promise that if the conditions of the agreement are kept, the rest will be delivered sometime in the future. Our salvation is being delivered from the state of death and being put into union with Christ. But our free will is that we can choose, as with any marriage (which is the analogy used for our relationship with Christ) to walk away and be unfaithful to Him with another - sin.

The Parable of the Prodigal is instructive here. The Prodigal is a son. He has relationship with his father and is part of the household by birth, just as our new birth in baptism makes us part of God's household. But the Prodigal decides to turn his back on all that is his in his relationship with his father and seek that which he thinks will really bring him happiness.

Does he stop being a son? No. Is there still an inheritance waiting for him when he returns? Yes.

But what if he never returned? What if he died in the pigstyes he was tending? Would he then receive the inheritance of his father, the money that his father still had and would give to him? Of course not. And this is analogous to our relationship with Christ Jesus. We have an inheritance ( 1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,). it awaits all the sons and daughters of the family - providing that they remain faithful and not leave the household of faith.

A simple covenant principle: Obedient children receive inheritance. Disobedient children are disinherited.

Salvation unites one to Christ, saves one from the world and its influence, makes one an inheritor of the kingdom promises, and gives the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, as the One who can help us through our weaknesses into the kingdom. Eternal life is the inheritance. We have the downpayment now...we get the full amount at the Judgement Seat.
 
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MikeEnders

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If your passages contradict other passages in the Bible, then there is a conflict, and therefore, someone has misinterpreted what is there. Given that the Church is the "pillar and ground" of the truth, I will go with the Church rather than some Johnny-Come-Lately Protestant assembly that just started 100 years ago.

Hail Mary....

by that rationale a cult that is one for a thousand years is better than one that is one for the last 50. Truth is determined by whats in the Bible not by a historically verifiable and proven corrupt institution be it Catholic or protestant.
 
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Near

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Is there any verses in the NT about losing the Holy Spirit? No, there are not. And Jesus said that no one ( meaning no person, which would include even the believer, who is a person) can snatch a believer from God's hand.
It doesn't follow that since there are no explicit verses in the NT about losing the Holy Spirit, therefore one cannot lose the holy spirit.

Right. We're marked for what? The day of redemption. And the seal is a pledge or PROMISE.
It doesn't follow that since we're marked for the day of redemption, we cannot be unmarked.

We're not talking about physical seals, either those of the ancient world, or by today's standard. God has sealed those who believe with the Holy Spirit as a mark for the day of redemption. This is a promise of redemption. This is eternal security.
If we're not talking about physical seals, the rational behind thinking sealed means forever shut, done deal, is thrown out the window. You're begging the question.

No one has yet proven this theory from Scripture. Salvation includes regeneration, being born again, being a new creature. How does that all just go away? It doesn't.
If salvation includes regeneration, being born again, and being a new creature; that all goes away through apostasy.
The following describes a person who was regenerate:
Hebrews 6:4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

The false assumption that one is only saved if one continues to have faith is not taught in Scripture.
Further, Paul clearly defined what he meant by 'gift' in Romans: 5:15-17 is the gift of justification. 6:23 is the gift of eternal life. The VERY NEXT time Paul mentioned God's gifts is 11:29 where he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.
It is not sane or rational to exlude eternal life from 11:29, esp since Paul specifically defined eternal life as a gift of God previously.
btw, Paul never mentioned the "gift of faith" in Romans. So that is not in context. At all.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you think "gift of faith" is not in Romans, and faith is a gift from God. Your belief that God's gifts are irrevocable are limited to the epistle of Romans, and gifts mentioned outside of Romans are revocable? Such as faith? I still see no reason to think that God's gifts to us cannot be lost. If we discard a gift, the giver of that gift hasn't really taken it back, but it is discarded nonetheless.
Since you're limiting Romans 11:29 to apply only to the book of Romans, why not narrow it down even more?
Specifically to the context of Romans 11 itself. If you read Romans 11 you'll notice that the verse we've mentioned refers to the salvation of Israel.
In terms of faith through salvation:
Pual Speaking to the Gentiles about the Jews:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

What do you believe Paul refers to when he says we can be cut off?
I think it's obvious: salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Secondly, the gift is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
If we choose not to abide in Christ, we don't have the guarantee of salvation. Salvation is only for those in Christ, not those who depart from him.

Lastly: Those who do not have faith will be sent to hell,

Rev 21:
5And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you can be saved while denying Christ. It actually says, the faithless will go to hell.
FURTHERMORE:
1 John 3:15
15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Therefore, a once saved person who begins to hate his brother does not have eternal life.
 
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SinnerInTheHands

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It certainly isn't the Presbyterian or Baptist Church or any of those who sprung out of the Reformation. So who is it then if not the Church which was established under the authority of the Apostles and came to be called "katholicos" (universal) by the start of the second century?

Uh . . . it's the church catholic [with lowercase "c"]. Also known as the "communion of saints," "the bride of Christ," "the Christian Church," "the universal church," "the body of all believers," "the flock of God," &c., &c. It's the collection of all living believers in Christ on Earth, also known within my tradition as the elect [all the saved].

I should also note that the Eastern Orthodox also were called catholic by the beginning of the second century.
 
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gigman7

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. . . through baptism, the child receives God's grace to be entered into union with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and be made a covenant member of the covenant Kingdom.
This is 100% incorrect. Water baptism is only a followup to salvation.

Most of the time baptism is mentioned in the Bible it is talking about spiritual baptism.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Nicely done, sir, especially the quote which shows that eternal life is an inheritance and not a juridical guarantee. Ephesians 1:13-14 also states the same thing. We have the Holy Spirit as the "earnest" of our salvation. An "earnest" is a deposit which guarantees the rest of the sum IF - IF IF IF IF - we keep the promises we agreed to.
There is nothing in Eph 1:13-14 about any condition on our part, other than believing what we heard. Let's not add to the Word.
 
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FreeGrace2

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For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

Eternal life is not mentioned in this verse.
This argument is pointless. Paul had ALREADY defined eternal life (Rom 6:23) and justification (Rom 5:15-17) as gifts of God. So why would he have to repeat himself in 11:29? There is NO REASON. Having already defined these as gifts of God, and the VERY NEXT TIME he mentions "gifts" is 11:29, it is QUITE OBVIOUS that he meant justification and eternal life.

btw, those who reject that Rom 11:29 refers back to justification and eternal life, the burden of proof on them to prove that Paul meant something else. So where ELSE did Paul mention gifts between 6:23 and 11:29? He didn't.

Also, one would need to prove that Paul was specifically excluding both justification and eternal life from 11:29, if he was. So where is that proof?

The calling to salvation continues to be available to those who do not believe, however they must believe in order to be "grafted back in".
Why ignore the "gifts" part of 11:29? If they do not refer back to specifically what Paul defined as God's gifts, then what are these irrevocable gifts? The offer or calling to salvation only covers the "calling" part of 11:29. It does NOT cover the 'gifts' part.

Your view suggests that they can not be broken off in the first place, which grossly violated the context.
Where does Paul exclude eternal life from 11:29. The part about being broken off has NO MENTION of "gifts", so doesn't apply to 11:29 at all.

The very point of teaching that the gifts and calling are irrevocable, is to assure that the "broken off" natural branched can be grafted back in, indicating their covenant relationship has been severed.
This makes no sense whatsoever.

This same Paul who warned the Gentiles of being broken off from the supporting root, has also said the calling to repentance continues to be available and is irrevocable.
JLB
I'm not arguing about the "calling" part. It's the "gifts" part that keeps being ignored and/or dodged.

Paul defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God, BEFORE he wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE.

It is ludicrous to exclude either justification or eternal life from what Paul was meaning in Rom 11:29.
 
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FreeGrace2

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OSAS does NOT have to teach that you can do anything and be a believer on your way to heaven , Its that you won't continue to live in unrepentant sin if you really are saved.
The Bible is quite clear about people not continuing to believe. Otherwise the warnings to continue to believe are meaningless. The point of the NT is that believers are not supposed to continue to live in unrepentant sin. That's why the warnings: to warn of severe discipline from the Lord in time, and loss of reward in eternity.
 
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FreeGrace2

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A seal can be broken.
Except the passages about the Holy Spirit being a seal isn't about a physical seal that is designed to be broken. And the sealing by the Holy Spirit is a pledge (read that PROMISE) for the day of redemption. It couldn't be more clear. God seals the believer WHEN they believe with the Holy Spirit as a promise for the day of redemption.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Eph 1:13)

Paul's is using an analogy of a "sealed document" back then. When you sealed a document, you sealed it with wax and it was sealed until it was delivered to the proper recipient. Paul was using an analogy of an inheritance in a legal will, which would have been properly witnessed and sealed by a representative of the Roman government.
When a document like this is received, the first thing that is observed is whether or not the seal is intact. If the seal was broken then the representative would know that some tampering occurred and the document would be considered void and the inheritance denied.

This is Paul's analogy. We must protect our covenant with God and not seek to break the seal of the Holy Spirit. A GREAT Official (Holy Spirit) seals the document but a common citizen (Believer) may break the seal.

Was it possible for a Roman citizen to break the wax seal? Of course it was. This is also true of one who breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit. That is why blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. If you look at various verses that speak of falling away, you will see that this sin against the Holy Spirit is linked to Apostasy.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4-6)

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29)

This is why Paul warned us not to tamper with our seal.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Eph 4:30)

This is a big problem with Christendom, today. A false security is being preached. Once sealed, always sealed. The Word of God does not agree nor support that. Remember, these letters are written to Followers of Christ. The Early Church did not believe OSAS.

Here are some examples:
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:19-20)

Paul warned Timothy to guard his faith. He stated clearly that some had abandoned their faith and shipwrecked. Then he named two acquaintances, Hymenaeus and Alexander, who became apostates by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Did you know that the Word of God says that our faith can be overthrown?

"But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." (2 Tim 2:16-18)

Hymenaeus was not content to make shipwreck of his own faith. Now, we find him teaching false doctrine [eschatology] and thereby overthrowing the faith of others. Sounds like he was teaching Preterism.

"For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; ..." (2 Tim 4:10)

Paul warned Timothy extensively about the lure of materialism. Apparently, many believers had quit and become entangled in the lust for money.

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after,they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Tim 6:10)

This brings to mind the parable of the Sower. Remember, some fell among "thorns." Jesus said the "thorns" were the cares of this world and the love of money, which after the seed has sprouted, and begun to grow, they choke the Word, and the plant dies.

These examples of Christians who's faith failed because of a love of money or power demonstrate thatthe warnings in Scripture about falling away are real.

Here is a conditional promise. Can you tell me what the condition is?
"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom 11:20-22)

That little word "IF", makes a big difference, doesn't it?

Can you point out the condition in this verse?
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, IFye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:1-2)

There's that pesky little word "IF", again.
(Looks like their salvation is linked to perseverance. Kind of like, "he that endures to the end will be saved. Matt 24).

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:21-23)

Again, we find this in the Scriptures. Another conditional statement. That little word "IF" messes things up again!!

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Heb 3:12-14)

"IF", once again. There are many of these in the Scriptures. You may want to look them up.

So, I don't know how you explain Scriptures like these away. I'm sure there is an "explanation" somewhere. But it looks like UNBELIEF will surely ruin us. It is after all, the opposite of FAITH. But what this passage reveals, is that it can happen to a Believer. A hard heart leads to unbelief and unbelief leads to departing from God.

We will be made partakers with Christ IF we hold our initial confidence [or faith] until the end.

"Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape,if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;" (Heb 2:1-3)

I'm really surprised that people do not see these conditional statements in the Scriptures. But, I think the man-made doctrines have blinded them and made these scriptures of "no effect". Commandments and traditions of men have captured people's hearts so that they have become idols in their hearts and they are no longer open to truth.

"Neglect" is treating something that is precious, casually. It is carelessness. Unfortunately, this is the state of many Christians today. Yet, they think they are in no danger. That is because a false Gospel of false security is being preached and the reason why you cannot tell the difference between the world and the church, today.

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;(Who are the brethren that James is talking to?)
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

The only death that does not hide a multitude of sins is eternal death, not physical death. Because after physical death, we will all be judged.

Of course people think up all manner of explanations why people fall away. The main one is that they were never saved to begin with. That does not cohere with the preponderance of scriptures. What I have outlined for you does agree with the preponderance of Scripture and experience. Too many of us have known truly born-again people who have departed from the faith. If your man-made doctrine says that cannot happen, then it is convenient to say, "they were never born-again".
None of these so-called "proof-texts" demonstrates that the Holy Spirit as a seal can be broken. Not even close.
 
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MikeEnders

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The Bible is quite clear about people not continuing to believe. Otherwise the warnings to continue to believe are meaningless. The point of the NT is that believers are not supposed to continue to live in unrepentant sin. That's why the warnings: to warn of severe discipline from the Lord in time, and loss of reward in eternity.

read what you are responding to. You can adhere to OSAS and believe that believers continue to believe. The warnings are perfectly sensible in an OSAS framework because the church groups always has people in it that are not truly saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Here are the verse's if scripture -

If they become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and depart from God.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Our faith must continue steadfast unto the end.

If we depart from God in unbelief, then we no longer have the substance of the thing we are hoping for.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR...


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrew 11:1

Faith is what you have, until you obtain the thing you are hoping for.

That is why in so many places we are warned about about falling into unbelief by becoming hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

This is what the scripture above teaches so clearly.

No faith = No salvation.

If we are not a part of Christ, then like the branches who do not abide in the Vine who is the source of life for the branches, then we will die.
None of these verses says anything about loss of salvation. So, where are the verses that support your theories?

Now it's up to you to prove from the scriptures that we have eternal life apart from Faith in Christ.
JLB
First, you've never proven that salvation continues ONLY AS LONG as faith continues. What verses say that?

Second, since eternal life IS a gift of God, along with justification, and God's gifts are irrevocable, that's prove enough.

What hasn't been proven is that Paul didn't include eternal life from Rom 11:29 where he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It doesn't follow that since there are no explicit verses in the NT about losing the Holy Spirit, therefore one cannot lose the holy spirit.
Good heavens!! Of course it follows. In fact, there are NO verses anywhere about losing the Holy Spirit in the NT. Jesus Himself promised the Holy Spirit would come and be with us forever.

It doesn't follow that since we're marked for the day of redemption, we cannot be unmarked.
If one reads the entire context, we are marked or sealed with a promise. Is your view that God breaks His promises? HUH?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you think "gift of faith" is not in Romans, and faith is a gift from God. Your belief that God's gifts are irrevocable are limited to the epistle of Romans, and gifts mentioned outside of Romans are revocable?
It seems that the concept of "context" isn't quite clear to some. Paul defined both justification (5:15-17) and eternal life (6:23) BEFORE he wrote 11:29 about God's gifts being irrevocable. He mentioned no other gifts before 11:29. He did mention "spiritual gifts" in 1:11. So let's include them as well, ok? Since these are the ONLY gifts he specifically mentioned, why should anyone reject any of these gifts as being what Paul was referring to in 11:29?
 
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JLB777

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you are lecturing and pontificating not dealing with the text. The perfect tense in the greek means a completed past action that has lasting consequence. Look it up. We are not saved sometime in the future if we continue but we cotinue fi we have been truly saved. Thats EXACTLY what that passage states in the original greek .

Your "theory" refuses to recognize the basic foundation precepts of faith.

If you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you yourself are hoping for salvation.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR!!! Hebrews 11:1'

We are saved (past tense) by faith.

We are not saved as if we have obtained the salvation we are hoping for, but rather we are saved by faith...

I guess no one has ever explained this simple elementary truth to you before.

All the lexicon Greek gymnastics isn't going to change the definition of faith.

Faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

We don't hope for something we already have.

Just read the plain words of Paul about this subject.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

We who were saved, have the hope of salvation and are eagerly waiting for it.


JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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read what you are responding to.
Huh? Of course I have been.

You can adhere to OSAS and believe that believers continue to believe.
I do believe that believers can continue to believe. But I also believe what Jesus specifically said about the second soil; "they believed FOR A WHILE, and in time of testing, fell away". Why shouldn't everyone believe what He said?

The warnings are perfectly sensible in an OSAS framework because the church groups always has people in it that are not truly saved.
The warnings are ALL based on works, or effort. Is your view that one must work for salvation, or that salvation requires effort on your part?
 
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