Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[football5680]

Jesus Himself noted in a parable about soils that some "believe for a while" and then fall away. By "fall away", He was referring to their faith. Their faith ceased, obviously. But there is nothing in that parable (or anywhere else in Scripture) that teaches or warns that if one quits believing, they lose salvation. That is just an assumption from an incomplete understanding of Scripture.


If one believes "exactly what you believe" (a saved person), then that person is also saved. We call it "saving faith".


We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Eph 2:8

Jesus taught that God's children (saved people) are held in His hand. Not the other way around. So even those who quit believing are still being held by God the Father's hand.

Both justification (Rom 5:16) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are gifts of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29.

2 Tim 2:13 teaches that even if we are faithless, He remains faithful.

And, finally, when one believes, they sealed by the Holy Spirit "in Him" (Eph 1:13). This is union with Christ. And this seal is a promise or pledge for the Day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

What you are saying would negate free will. If I choose to change my mind and reject God, will I be forced to go to heaven?

We have the choice to accept or reject God's gift and we only obtain it after death. The gift is irrevocable because the offer is still in place to anybody who wants to accept it.

The context of 2 Timothy 2:13 goes against what you are saying. The verse right before it says "if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;" 2 Timothy 2:13 is not saying that even if we become disbelievers we will be saved, it is simply describing the nature of God. The verse goes on to say "for he cannot deny himself." Which clarifies the fact that Saint Paul is speaking about God's nature. Numbers 23:19 contrasts the attributes of God and the attributes of Humans so the point being made is that if we remain faithful we know for a fact God will keep up his end of the deal. If we were dealing with another human we could hope they would keep up their side of the deal but we would have no guarantee.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

Now go through every single verse you posted and show me explicitly why they are in direct opposition to Calvinism. No copy-pasting from independent Baptist or Arminian sights, no improper grammar, no youtube links, no out of context verses. Just plain and simple explanations thought up by you and you alone.

Think you can do that?

If so, I would be glad to respond to any and all arguments put forth. As it is, whenever I make a decent point, you copy-paste drivel from clearly biased Arminian sources that have zero understanding of the Reformed tradition and its most basic tenets.

​

I did all that in post #12, #13 & #14 posting many verses against the teachings of Once Saved Always Saved (perseverance of the saints).

I also refuted and exposed all the verses you posted on post #17.

I posted more scriptures against OSAS and refuted more of your arguments in post #25.

All I gotten from you so far are questions, commentaries, and a picture of a skeleton. No scriptural rebuttal.

Do you think for once you can refute any of the scriptures that teaches against once saved always saved? (An actual scripture, not a single verse here and there. I've seen how you tried to twist individual passages to form your own doctrine contrary to what the bible teaches in post #17).

How about just one scripture, Hebrews 10:26-31. Think you can handle just one?

Hebrews 10:26-31 ESV
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Keep in mind, the fire He's sending you to isn't a backyard barbeque. Nice lead, enjoy the joke.

​

One other thing. Why do you assume I'm arminian? I'm 100% Christian. I've never seen the word till this week from reading your post. First time I saw it I thought you were talking about people like Kim Kardashian.

​

 

[Butch5]

Eternal security (and it's corollary OSAS) is entirely Biblical, as well as soundly Christian.

"They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves." Westminster Confession of Faith [17]

"Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God."
1 Peter 1:23

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:37

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?"
Romans 8:35

"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Romans 11:29

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
1 John 2:19

"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:6

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself."
2 Timothy 2:13

Need I go on?

Why then don't we find OSAS taught in the Church until the 1500's?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well---I have the feeling that a lot of "forever saved" believers who have died in their sins, unrepentant, will be hearing the words---
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/QUOTE]
Fortunately, doctrine is not based on feelings.

Eternal security is based on clear Scripture. Paul defined justification (Rom 5:16) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then very next time Paul mentions God's gifts is in Rom 11:29 where he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. They are not based on performance and no verse teaches that. Rewards are based on performance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nevertheless, there are verses that seem clearly to speak to the belief, and it's self-defeating to claim that they don't exist.

What I claim that doesn't exist is any verse that SAYS that salvation can be lost. Of course the Bible is clear that some have lost their faith. I've never denied that. But losing one's faith doesn't equate to losing one's salvation. That is merely a false assumption, as no verse says that.

The idea that they might be outweighted by those that seem to speak of free will might be a way to approach this, but for some reason, freewillers never want to do that.

I'm a "freewiller", but I'm not following your point. Please clarify.

 

[FreeGrace2]

if salvation was eternal and unchangeable, why would the Lord warn in the Book of Revelation 'lest your name be blotted out'? if the warning is there, such a thing must be possible.

First, context is everything. Second, your suggestion here pits Scripture against Scripture. Is that your agenda? Paul defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God in Rom 5:16 and 6:23. The very next time he mentioned God's gifts is in Rom 11:29 where he wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. I'm not shouting. I'm emphasizing what the Bible SAYS.

Note that the name IS ALREADY IN THE BOOK, and may be blotted out.
if one is sincere, one will stay faithful, and need not worry. It takes a conscious decision to become saved; it takes a wilfull conscious decision to lose salvation.
(imho)

Such a view is "all about me". If I stay faithful, if I am sincere, I will remain saved. Sorry, but the Bible teaches that God's children (those who have believed and ARE saved) are held by God. Not the other way around, as your view insinuates.

Also, why would anyone think that one has the authority or power to make a "willful conscious decision to lose salvation"?? Where does the Bible SAY that?

No one saves themselves, and no one loses their salvation.

And eternal life is irrevocable. The Bible SAYS so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do you have an inheritance in the kingdom when the kingdom of God is within you?

Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say , Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold , the kingdom of God is within you.

Really? Does context not matter at all? I showed from contextually related passages that "inheriting the kingdom" means to "have an inheritance in the kingdom".

But never mind. Let's just go with your point. If the kingdom of God is within us, why does the Bible speak of inheriting the kingdom, or having an inheritance in the kingdom?

Please reconcile your view with what the Bible says.

btw, who was Jesus addressing when he said the kingdom of God is in you or in your midst? The previous verse tells us: Pharisees. Do you believe the kingdom of God was IN them?? He described them as hypocrites frequently.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you are saying would negate free will. If I choose to change my mind and reject God, will I be forced to go to heaven?

The logic here is fuzzy, to say the least. Nothing in my view negates free will. To clarify, free will means freedom in choosing between options.

When one hears the gospel message of receiving the free gift of eternal life, they are free to believe (accept) the gift or not. That is free will.

But, after one has believed the gospel, they become new creatures (2 Cor 5:17), born again, with a new nature. They possess eternal life, which is irrevocable. And while they ARE free to later for whatever reason, stop believing, they DON'T have the option of not being saved.

There are NO verses that teach that we are kept by our continuing faithfulness or believing. Zero count.

We have the choice to accept or reject God's gift and we only obtain it after death.

This is not true. Jesus said this: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Jn 5:24

Please notice the present tense in 'HAS eternal life". That means WHEN one believes, not some time in the future.

The gift is irrevocable because the offer is still in place to anybody who wants to accept it.

This is confusing the OFFER of the gift with the gift itself. It is the gift itself that is irrevocable. Rom 11:29 is not about offers of gifts, but the actual gift. And because Rom 11:29 is plural, and Paul defined BOTH justification AND eternal life as gifts of God, that is exactly what he meant in Rom 11:29. They ARE irrevocable. Those who have been justified by faith and have obtained the gift of eternal life cannot lose them. They are irrevocable.

The context of 2 Timothy 2:13 goes against what you are saying. The verse right before it says "if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;" 2 Timothy 2:13 is not saying that even if we become disbelievers we will be saved, it is simply describing the nature of God.

Interesting and creative way to totally twist these verses out of their clear meaning. v.12 is about reward for enduring, not salvation. To "reign with Christ" is a reward; one must endure to reign with Christ. The secon part of v.12 is the other side of the SAME COIN: if we "deny Him", meaning that we haven't endured, then He will deny us (the reward of reigning with Him). There can be no other meaning of v.12.

And v.13 is about God's nature; He CANNOT deny Himself. Can God the Father deny God the Holy Spirit? NO! And we know that everyone who has believed has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So, no one who has believed CAN be rejected by God the Father.

The verse goes on to say "for he cannot deny himself." Which clarifies the fact that Saint Paul is speaking about God's nature.

Again, everyone who has believed HAS the Holy Spirit in them. God cannot deny Himself. This is eternal security. Otherwise, v.13 has no connection with v.12.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why then don't we find OSAS taught in the Church until the 1500's?

To be clear, conditional security rose its head up by the second century, along with all the other abuses of grace, like 'indulgences' and whatnot.

Simply, eternal security is all about God's grace. The conditional security folk seem to have a very limited understanding of what God's grace actually is and means.

Just as we don't earn or deserve salvation (because of God's grace), we cannot earn or deserve loss of salvation (again, because of God's grace).

Period.

 

[Albion]

What I claim that doesn't exist is any verse that SAYS that salvation can be lost. Of course the Bible is clear that some have lost their faith. I've never denied that. But losing one's faith doesn't equate to losing one's salvation. That is merely a false assumption, as no verse says that.


I'm a "freewiller", but I'm not following your point. Please clarify.

You know, I think I misunderstood your position, too. For one thing, I've never encountered anyone who contended that you can lose your faith and STILL not lose your salvation.

Everyone else that I know would say either that you can choose faith or voluntarily walk away from it and be lost OR ELSE you can lose your faith in some way, therefore showing that you never did have real Saving Faith in the first place.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You know, I think I misunderstood your position, too. For one thing, I've never encountered anyone who contended that you can lose your faith and STILL not lose your salvation.

Everyone else that I know would say either that you can choose faith or voluntarily walk away from it and be lost OR ELSE you can lose your faith in some way, therefore showing that you never did have real Saving Faith in the first place.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him:" Hebrews 11;6

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

and

Romans 14:23
"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

 

[LoveofTruth]

First, context is everything. Second, your suggestion here pits Scripture against Scripture. Is that your agenda? Paul defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God in Rom 5:16 and 6:23. The very next time he mentioned God's gifts is in Rom 11:29 where he wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. I'm not shouting. I'm emphasizing what the Bible SAYS.


Such a view is "all about me". If I stay faithful, if I am sincere, I will remain saved. Sorry, but the Bible teaches that God's children (those who have believed and ARE saved) are held by God. Not the other way around, as your view insinuates.

Also, why would anyone think that one has the authority or power to make a "willful conscious decision to lose salvation"?? Where does the Bible SAY that?

No one saves themselves, and no one loses their salvation.

And eternal life is irrevocable. The Bible SAYS so.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him:" Hebrews 11;6

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

and

Romans 14:23
"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin"

"
1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith."

and eternal life is Jesus

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" 1 John 1:2

and yet this eternal life may abide (remain) in someone or not

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." ( 1 John 3:15)

Notice that eternal life will not abide or remain in a man who is a murderer. Did not David murder and seek to have salvation restored to him through repentance. So in the state of murder you do not have eternal life IN you which is Jesus.

also consider the angels that sinned, they are an example for any who sin also. They were eternal beings who were perfect in all their ways and yet they will end up in the lake of fire.

"...how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:5,6)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Read Matthew 10

Jesus called His 12 disciples to him and they were sent out as apostles. Notice HIS 12, including Judas, not His 11 and one devil. He ordained all 12 and sent them forth and Judas partook of the ministry Acts 1 and he fell by transgression, he was once a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted them he lifted up his heel against Jesus and betrayed him. To betray means to once have the trust of and go against that. Judas had his name blotted out of the book of life Psalms 69 , in reference to Judas in Acts 1. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead etc Matthews 10. Judas was called a SHEEP by Jesus in Matthew 10 and sent to the LOST sheep. Judas had the Spirit of the father promised to speak in him when needed in Matthew 10 Judas had the peace of God to give to others, Judas belonged to the house of God as others. Judas as the other 11 once belonged to the Father before he was even given to Jesus John 17:6 "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;" Judas eventually fell away and went to hell, and is damned and it was better for him that he was never saved.

Judas is an unanswerable argument from scripture, (or at least as I have heard over the years). So also are the angels that sinned and will end up in the lake of fire.

and all the verses that some use here to justify OSAS can be easily answered by scripture and show that their doctrine is not sound.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What I claim that doesn't exist is any verse that SAYS that salvation can be lost. Of course the Bible is clear that some have lost their faith. I've never denied that. But losing one's faith doesn't equate to losing one's salvation. That is merely a false assumption, as no verse says that.


I'm a "freewiller", but I'm not following your point. Please clarify.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him:" Hebrews 11;6

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

and

Romans 14:23
"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin"

"
1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith."

and eternal life is Jesus

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" 1 John 1:2
and yet this eternal life may abide (remain) in someone or not

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." ( 1 John 3:15)

Notice that eternal life will not abide or remain in a man who is a murderer. Did not David murder and seek to have salvation restored to him through repentance. So in the state of murder you do not have eternal life IN you which is Jesus.

also consider the angels that sinned, they are an example for any who sin also. They were eternal beings who were perfect in all their ways and yet they will end up in the lake of fire.

"...how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:5,6)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Eternal security (and it's corollary OSAS) is entirely Biblical, as well as soundly Christian.

"They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves." Westminster Confession of Faith [17]

"Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God."
1 Peter 1:23

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:37

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?"
Romans 8:35

"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Romans 11:29

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
1 John 2:19

"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:6

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself."
2 Timothy 2:13

Need I go on?

all your verses can be easily answered, but before i consider doing that here's a verse

"
2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

and read Matthew 10 a few times more considering Judas who was called a sheep by jesus and Jesus called HIS 12 disciples not his 11 and one devil. And don't rush off to another section, first answer Matthew 10.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You know, I think I misunderstood your position, too. For one thing, I've never encountered anyone who contended that you can lose your faith and STILL not lose your salvation.

I have found verses that are clearly about eternal security, and…I have never found any verse that says that losing faith means losing salvation.

Everyone else that I know would say either that you can choose faith or voluntarily walk away from it and be lost OR ELSE you can lose your faith in some way, therefore showing that you never did have real Saving Faith in the first place.

Yes, these are the "classic" views, both of which are not supported by Scripture.

I made the point that conditional security woefully misunderstands God's grace. By that, I mean that just as we are saved by grace, and that means that we don't deserve salvation by anything we do, nor can earn it, the other side of the coin is true.

Because we are held by God (Jn 10:28), which is also by grace, we don't earn losing it by anything we do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"But without faith it is impossible to please him:" Hebrews 11;6

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

and

Romans 14:23
"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin"

"
1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith."

and eternal life is Jesus

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" 1 John 1:2

and yet this eternal life may abide (remain) in someone or not

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." ( 1 John 3:15)

Notice that eternal life will not abide or remain in a man who is a murderer. Did not David murder and seek to have salvation restored to him through repentance. So in the state of murder you do not have eternal life IN you which is Jesus.

also consider the angels that sinned, they are an example for any who sin also. They were eternal beings who were perfect in all their ways and yet they will end up in the lake of fire.

"...how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:5,6)

These are all great verses, and none of them even come close to saying or even suggesting that salvation can be lost.

Please consider what Paul said in Romans: justification (5:16) and eternal life (6:23) are gifts of God. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29. And he never mentioned any gifts between 6:23 and 11:29, so the gifts of God in 11:29 HAVE TO refer to what he defined as gifts of God; not what we would rather he meant by it.

God's gift of justification and eternal life are irrevocable. That simply ends the discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Read Matthew 10

Jesus called His 12 disciples to him and they were sent out as apostles. Notice HIS 12, including Judas, not His 11 and one devil. He ordained all 12 and sent them forth and Judas partook of the ministry Acts 1 and he fell by transgression, he was once a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted them he lifted up his heel against Jesus and betrayed him. To betray means to once have the trust of and go against that. Judas had his name blotted out of the book of life Psalms 69 , in reference to Judas in Acts 1. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead etc Matthews 10. Judas was called a SHEEP by Jesus in Matthew 10 and sent to the LOST sheep. Judas had the Spirit of the father promised to speak in him when needed in Matthew 10 Judas had the peace of God to give to others, Judas belonged to the house of God as others. Judas as the other 11 once belonged to the Father before he was even given to Jesus John 17:6 "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;" Judas eventually fell away and went to hell, and is damned and it was better for him that he was never saved.

Judas is an unanswerable argument from scripture, (or at least as I have heard over the years). So also are the angels that sinned and will end up in the lake of fire.

and all the verses that some use here to justify OSAS can be easily answered by scripture and show that their doctrine is not sound.

Please try to explain how Paul DIDN'T mean justification and eternal life when he said that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29, after defining both of them as gifts of God.

Rom 5:15 - But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is no mention of "gift" between 6:23 and 11:29. Paul is the only one who gets to define what he means by "gift" in Romans. We don't.

Speaking of having "eternal life IN Christ Jesus" in 6:23, we know how one is placed in union in Christ: through faith in Him and being sealed by the Holy Spirit: Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

So, what's the promise in v.13? Answered in Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Also answered in 2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

and 2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what is this "pledge" or promise? Eph 4:30 answers that directly: for the day of redemption.

Are there any conditions attached to this pledge or promise of God? No, there are not.

 

[Albion]

Because we are held by God (Jn 10:28), which is also by grace, we don't earn losing it by anything we do.

Are you sure that the reference is to abandoning the faith (as opposed to committing sins)? And is that--abandoning the faith--even possible? The obvious meaning of Jesus' words would seem to be that those whom the Father had given him would NOT become faithless.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Why then don't we find OSAS taught in the Church until the 1500's?

Why then do we find St. Augustine teaching the doctrine in the 4th-5th centuries?