The real jesus

[Robban]

As many of you know LDS believe that after three days Jesus was resurrected into his physical body. And that he still has this body today. What are your thoughts about whether or not Jesus did resurrect.

i don't think there is much evidence of that. The pharisees believed in a physical resurrection but not the Sadducees. it is not clear they believed in any short of afterlife. i don't know of any evidence for a jewish belief in a spirit world prior to Christ's time. Even the belief in the resurrection seems borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

"Many who sleep in the dust shall awaken, some to everlasting Life,
and some to ever lasting shame and reproach." Daniel 12:2

It is the 13th priniple of 13 priniples of faith as penned by Maimonidies.
It goes like this-
I Believe with complete faith that there will be resurrection of the dead at the time when it
will be the will of the Creator, blessed be His name and exalted be His rememberance forever and ever.

 

[Aidan K]

Being revived from a snake venom induced coma does not qualify as a resurrection, so no.

So where did Jesus go to after 40 days that would result in no documentation about him anywhere in the world by anyone?

 

[RevelationTestament]

i don't recall we were even discussing the topic of atonement. As for the resurrection, lets look more carefully at what paul says, in that same chapter of 1 Corinthians you cited earlier.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

i might be wrong here but it seems to me that a body which is not flesh and blood is not likely to be a physical body. i can't say i'm entirely sure what paul is saying here but it sounds a lot like the views of Shaykh Ahmad Ahsai, a forerunner to our own religion, who held that people had both physical and spiritual bodies as well as physical and spiritual souls and only the latter would participate in the resurrection. i give a lot of credence to paul's account because he is the only writer in the new Testament that claims to have seen the resurrected jesus. All the other accounts are third person hearsay.

Paul is sometimes confusing to read, but he definitely taught the physical resurrection of Jeshua. I believe what Paul is saying here is that flesh and blood alone cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He is saying our flesh is corrupted. But it is our spirits which do the inheriting. This does not mean that our spirits won't be embodied nor that our resurrected body will be one of flesh and blood. Our resurrected bodies will be an immortal body that is not subject to physical death - I don't believe the Lord has ever directly indicated that our resurrected bodies will have blood.

 

[RevelationTestament]

"Many who sleep in the dust shall awaken, some to everlasting Life,
and some to ever lasting shame and reproach." Daniel 12:2

It is the 13th priniple of 13 priniples of faith as penned by Maimonidies.
It goes like this-
I Believe with complete faith that there will be resurrection of the dead at the time when it
will be the will of the Creator, blessed be His name and exalted be His rememberance forever and ever.

Yep the world shall see again the truth of physical resurrection.

 

[LoAmmi]

Jesus was not David, but possessed the keys of David. So many things in Psalms apply to Jesus or are reiterated in the life of Jesus. It has to do with the Davidic covenant. In other words David was being likened unto Jesus in some ways. In this present earthly life Jesus was without sin as he had been begotten as the Son of the Father, and made our King. The throne of David was an imperfect earthly throne, while the throne of Christ is a perfect throne of His Father.

How can you break apart the psalm though? There were no verses in the original text so how can that sentence work but an earlier sentence not work? I have never understood when Christianity does this because it seems like the definition of cheery-picking.

 

[Robban]

Paul is sometimes confusing to read, but he definitely taught the physical resurrection of Jeshua. I believe what Paul is saying here is that flesh and blood alone cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He is saying our flesh is corrupted. But it is our spirits which do the inheriting. This does not mean that our spirits won't be embodied nor that our resurrected body will be one of flesh and blood. Our resurrected bodies will be an immortal body that is not subject to physical death - I don't believe the Lord has ever directly indicated that our resurrected bodies will have blood.

That is intresting.

Here is a snip from Midrash,
"Just as a person goes, so will he return.
If he died blind, deaf or mute
he will return blind, deaf or mute.
As he goes clothed he will return clothed."
G-d said, "Let them rise as they went--and afterwards I will heal them."

(Midrash rabbah , Genesis 95)

 

[RevelationTestament]

How can you break apart the psalm though? There were no verses in the original text so how can that sentence work but an earlier sentence not work? I have never understood when Christianity does this because it seems like the definition of cheery-picking.

Many of the prophets actually "lived" aspects of the life of Christ. In other words they went through some things Christ would actually go through. So various aspects of their stories are reflected in the NT. But obviously, the story of Jonah didn't all apply to Christ as Christ did not try to run away from the commandment of God nor was He sent to Ninevah, nevertheless, he was in the belly of a great fish like Jeshua was in the "bowels of the earth" for 3 days - most of which I believe was spent teaching the spirits in spirit prison. So there are "likenesses" of the life of Jesus to be found in many of the stories of the prophets. I again bring up the story of Hilkiah and Eliakim - obviously Eliakim himself was not fastened as a nail in a sure place, but his name is being used to refer to a future event as prophecy. Nor do I think David actually drank gall. Even the very story of the exodus is reiterated in the 7 seals of Revelation.

 

[LoAmmi]

Many of the prophets actually "lived" aspects of the life of Christ. In other words they went through some things Christ would actually go through. So various aspects of their stories are reflected in the NT. But obviously, the story of Jonah didn't all apply to Christ as Christ did not try to run away from the commandment of God nor was He sent to Ninevah, nevertheless, he was in the belly of a great fish like Jeshua was in the "bowels of the earth" for 3 days - most of which I believe was spent teaching the spirits in spirit prison. So there are "likenesses" of the life of Jesus to be found in many of the stories of the prophets. I again bring up the story of Hilkiah and Eliakim - obviously Eliakim himself was not fastened as a nail in a sure place, but his name is being used to refer to a future event as prophecy. Nor do I think David actually drank gall. Even the very story of the exodus is reiterated in the 7 seals of Revelation.

To be completely honest, I'm not sure there's a sentence here I actually can agree with. We're never going to see eye-to-eye.

 

[RevelationTestament]

That is intresting.

Here is a snip from Midrash,
"Just as a person goes, so will he return.
If he died blind, deaf or mute
he will return blind, deaf or mute.
As he goes clothed he will return clothed."
G-d said, "Let them rise as they went--and afterwards I will heal them."

(Midrash rabbah , Genesis 95)

I do not accept the Midrashes as scripture, and I believe that was part of "the law" Jesus rejected. He never once referred to a Midrash as a source of authority although He may have used certain common sayings such as the eye of a needle. He did not fault the people for having followed Midrashes.
I also hasten to point out that the Sadducees did not believe in a physical resurrection.

 

[Robban]

I do not accept the Midrashes as scripture, and I believe that was part of "the law" Jesus rejected. He never once referred to a Midrash as a source of authority although He may have used certain common sayings such as the eye of a needle. He did not fault the people for having followed Midrashes.
I also hasten to point out that the Sadducees did not believe in a physical resurrection.

I know, that,s why they were called "Sad-you- see"

In any case they were eventually expelled from the Sanhedrin,

 

[RevelationTestament]

To be completely honest, I'm not sure there's a sentence here I actually can agree with. We're never going to see eye-to-eye.

You may not "agree" but God did it despite what Judaism has taught you.
Here is an example. Here are the plagues of Egypt represented in the seven seals of Revelation and especially the last 7 plagues:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3345654&postcount=123

 

[RevelationTestament]

I know, that,s why they were called "Sad-you- see"

In any case they were eventually expelled from the Sanhedrin,

LOL, thanks for the humor.

 

[LoAmmi]

You may not "agree" but God did it despite what Judaism has taught you.

And I could just as easily say that HaShem did not do anything of the kind despite what Christianity has taught you. You are 100% convinced you are correct and I'm 100% convinced that you are wrong. We're at an impasse we can never get past. I just can't accept "types and shadows". You'd have an easier time convincing me of green women living on Jupiter.

 

[RevelationTestament]

And I could just as easily say that HaShem did not do anything of the kind despite what Christianity has taught you. You are 100% convinced you are correct and I'm 100% convinced that you are wrong. We're at an impasse we can never get past. I just can't accept "types and shadows". You'd have an easier time convincing me of green women living on Jupiter.

Isaiah 28:
16 ¶Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18 ¶And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

 

[LoAmmi]

I see assertions that Jesus is the cornerstone by Christians and yet, when I study the texts of the Prophets for signs of the Messiah, I see no universal knowledge of HaShem (as the waters cover the sea no less), I see no universal peace where weapons are beat into plowshares, I don't see the world coming to Israel in order to celebrate the Lord's feasts. Why should I believe such a cornerstone exists when the most clear prophecies of the Messiah are unfinished?

 

[Arthra]

RT wrote above:

"Then Baha'i do not believe Christ, and reject biblical scripture."

Well the thread topic appears to be the resurrection of Jesus and Baha'is don't believe bodies of people including Jesus are going to be ascending.

Do we believe Christ? Yes indeed.. When Jesus was on the cross being martyred..with His body scourged and His hands/wrists and ankles/feet driven through..crucified He commended His Spirit to the Father:

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

~ Luke 23:46

That's believable enough for me as a Baha'i. Jesus was martyred on the cross and it's pretty clear in scripture.

 

[Albion]

Let me paraphrase what I think you have said about Catholic beliefs. Tell me if I'm wrong.
- Mary died of old age

We don't know what caused her death, but this is a good guess.

- Disciples put Mary in a tomb

Yes, there are several places which claim to be or have been the resting place of Mary's body. No one knows for certain.

- Thomas wanted to see Mary's corpse, but tomb was empty

That's purely a legend.

- Mary's corpse had been transported into heaven

That's what the Roman Catholic Church says.

- Mary's spirit went wherever other human spirits go immediately after death

Yes.

- Mary's corpse is lifeless in heaven awaiting the Second Coming to be resurrected

We don't really know how either Christ's or Mary's body functions in heaven but presumably their bodies and spirits have been reunited.

I don't think that is what Catholics or Orthodox believe.

You're mistaken.

Google some paintings of the Assumption of Mary. She looks very alive in the paintings as she is lifted to heaven.

I've seem them before. This is entirely religious art. It's not meant to be a literal picture, not any more than the famous painting of an old man reaching his finger out to touch Adam's finger is how Christians think God literally looked when creating Adam.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I see assertions that Jesus is the cornerstone by Christians and yet, when I study the texts of the Prophets for signs of the Messiah, I see no universal knowledge of HaShem (as the waters cover the sea no less), I see no universal peace where weapons are beat into plowshares, I don't see the world coming to Israel in order to celebrate the Lord's feasts. Why should I believe such a cornerstone exists when the most clear prophecies of the Messiah are unfinished?

Perhaps because they are not all prophecies of the Messiah.
This actually brings up a point about YHWH. Eloah is a name which refers to being the stone of Israel or the rock of salvation. Elohim is a name used even of the people - even of stone idols...
When YHWH says He is YHWH your Elohim, He is saying something along the lines of I am the word/life of your family of immovable force/stone.
YHWH is one. Elohim is also one, and yet YHWH is an El of Elohim. Deut.
The day of peace to which you allude is the Sabbath of the Lord - the 7th thousand years, the seventh seal.
Not every stone of the law is Jeshua.

• Zechariah 3:9
  9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
  

 

[smaneck]

Paul is sometimes confusing to read, but he definitely taught the physical resurrection of Jeshua. I believe what Paul is saying here is that flesh and blood alone cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He is saying our flesh is corrupted. But it is our spirits which do the inheriting. This does not mean that our spirits won't be embodied nor that our resurrected body will be one of flesh and blood. Our resurrected bodies will be an immortal body that is not subject to physical death - I don't believe the Lord has ever directly indicated that our resurrected bodies will have blood.

it seems to me pretty clear that he is saying our resurrected body won't be of flesh and blood. Whether, it will be embodied, i'm not prepared to say. paul speaks of spiritual bodies, whatever that means.

 

[LoAmmi]

Eloah doesn't mean stone or rock. I don't know what you're talking about.