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Sumwear

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And so you're solution to our current state of affairs should be what ?

Jim

0 taxes for natives and I don't mean just those on reservations. first group of people who should be afforded universal health care as there are large swaths of natives who unfortunately battle through alcoholism, diabetes, heart disease, cancer and the like. they should join u.s. armed forces voluntarily instead of if being mandatory if it were to ever arise. rid columbus day. this is coming from an italian. the italians chose the wrong person to identify with and who played a huge role in the americas. he did play a big role just nothing of it was positive. amerigo vespucci should have been chosen, but even with that said, rid columbus day and call it native american day. only this time, make this a true holiday in that not only federal employees are granted off from work.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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0 taxes for natives and I don't mean just those on reservations. first group of people who should be afforded universal health care as there are large swaths of natives who unfortunately battle through alcoholism, diabetes, heart disease, cancer and the like. they should join u.s. armed forces voluntarily instead of if being mandatory if it were to ever arise. rid columbus day. this is coming from an italian. the italians chose the wrong person to identify with and who played a huge role in the americas. he did play a big role just nothing of it was positive. amerigo vespucci should have been chosen, but even with that said, rid columbus day and call it native american day. only this time, make this a true holiday in that not only federal employees are granted off from work.

So why do they deserve this over any other human being ?

Jim
 
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Sumwear

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So, let them use roads and bridges that others paid for. Let them have free health care exclusively at the expense of everyone else. They already join the US military voluntarily.

Rid of Columbus Day ?

Heck, if no

we honor a person who was the precursor of native genocide and enslavement. I'm an italian and I have 0 reservations if the federal government were to remove columbus day and implement a native american day. south dakota did it. tennessee and california carved out a day for natives. yes. I have no problem with them shelling zero $ back into the federal government. this was their rightful property, we kicked them in the dirt through various periods of time, and we never allowed them to settle in one place rightfully as we were to busy fulfilling manifest destiny. I don't think it's too much to ask for the federal government to provide for.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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we honor a person who was the precursor of native genocide and enslavement. I'm an italian and I have 0 reservations if the federal government were to remove columbus day and implement a native american day. south dakota did it. tennessee and california carved out a day for natives. yes. I have no problem with them shelling zero $ back into the federal government. this was their rightful property, we kicked them in the dirt through various periods of time, and we never allowed them to settle in one place rightfully as we were to busy fulfilling manifest destiny. I don't think it's too much to ask for the federal government to provide for.

What happened to Native Americans was done by those of the past, not the present, and those in the present should not be punished for sins of the past.

Besides, many of our ancestors weren't even here back then

Jim
 
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Sumwear

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What happened to Native Americans was done by those of the past, not the present, and those in the present should not be punished for sins of the past.

Besides, many of our ancestors weren't even here back then

Jim

how is this a detriment to us? instead of building another fighter jet or bunker buster or providing money elsewhere around the world, we can use some of that money to help natives, and we can do that by giving them at least top notch health care. I want universal health care across the board but since that reality is still a bit far off, have the natives enjoy that benefit. I'd rather natives not pay a single red cent in taxes than hearing and seeing companies, big banks, politicians weasel and circumvent paying taxes by utilizing every single loophole at their exposal.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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how is this a detriment to us? instead of building another fighter jet or bunker buster or providing money elsewhere around the world, we can use some of that money to help natives, and we can do that by giving them at least top notch health care. I want universal health care across the board but since that reality is still a bit far off, have the natives enjoy that benefit. I'd rather natives not pay a single red cent in taxes than hearing and seeing companies, big banks, politicians weasel and circumvent paying taxes by utilizing every single loophole at their exposal.

How about using that money to help ALL Americans.

Fact is, Native Americans today benefit in the nation that evolved out of the past.

The US is a government by the people, which means the government of the past, was that of the people of the past, and the government today is the government of the people today.

There is no way that the people of today are responsible for what the people of the past did to Native Americans.

I'm sorry for the injustice, especially the injustice to the Cherokee Nation.

But the people today can not make up nor are they responsible for that injustice, which BTW was done to Native Americans, of the past.

Today's Native Americans live a life of luxury compared to their ancestors, just we all live far above what our ancestors had to endure.

Let the past go, learn to live in the present and be just to those in the present and not repeat the same mistakes of the past.

Jim
 
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Sumwear

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How about using that money to help ALL Americans.

Fact is, Native Americans today benefit in the nation that evolved out of the past.

The US is a government by the people, which means the government of the past, was that of the people of the past, and the government today is the government of the people today.

There is no way that the people of today are responsible for what the people of the past did to Native Americans.

I'm sorry for the injustice, especially the injustice to the Cherokee Nation.

But the people today can not make up nor are they responsible for that injustice, which BTW was done to Native Americans, of the past.

Today's Native Americans live a life of luxury compared to their ancestors, just we all live far above what our ancestors had to endure.

Let the past go, learn to live in the present and be just to those in the present and not repeat the same mistakes of the past.

Jim

you can't be serious with that line I bolded? I'm not calling for extreme measures which is we get on up and leave this country and hand everything back to the natives. some extreme natives are calling for that. but you can't sit here and deny that this country hasn't benefited from the exploitation of natives well into the 20th century. even in the reservations that has been allotted to them, we have found ways to screw them even from that.


http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/pfsejfactsheet.htm

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/3/21/cleaning-up-a-toxiclegacy.html

I think by having them not pay taxes and affording them health care is a drop in the bucket. at the end of the day, this is still their home and I don't think it should be burdensome to take care of our original tenants.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Sumwear,

As a Native American, I see the European (Christian) invaders as nothing more than a horde of locusts, devouring and destroying everything in their path, bringing death and destruction in their wake. So, when I think of them, I think of death, disease, destruction, oppression, cultural genocide, white supremacists, murderers, liars, and thieves.

And your hatred and bitterness keeps you from growing as a human being.

You have an us and they view of humanity rather than seeing yourself as part of the whole.

Humans made mistakes, bad mistakes.

Much of what happened to Native Americans was unjust and the Pope has acknowledged those injustices and has apologized for the wrongs Catholics did.

It serves nothing to harbor hatred of the white race as if Native Americans did not commit atrocities, long before the first Europeans arrived.

My ancestors the Acadians, were sent into exile and even sold into slavery back in 1757, by the British.

It would serve no one for Acadians to hold hatred toward the British because of what they did to our ancestors over 240 years ago.

It will only stunt any chance at spiritual growth.

This is a Christian forum and we follow Jesus Christ.

If this bothers you, then I have to question why you're here ?

Anyway, it's time to heal and healing can only come through forgiveness and compassion.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Red Fox, my daughter made friends with a Lakota Indian, back when she was going through her rebellion years of high-school. This man worked at a Native American jewelry and art shop in town. He was an excellent artist and taught art at the store.

Anyway, he became a mentor for my daughter who was taking on Native American spirituality at the time.
He turned her away from it, but tactfully so, in a way that was very wise. She had no idea he was a Christian, but let her
ask questions about his culture and beliefs.

One day, he told her she needed to learn how to relax and so gave her a tape on some music. It turned out to be classical music, Bach, Beethoven etc. She was surprised, but took it home and listened to it. She got hooked on it.

He then began to educate her in the bogus POW-WOWS which were the fad in our area at the time. In fact refused to participate in them, when he was asked. He resented people who are looking to become victims, many who had no Native American blood in them at all and spoke cruelly towards white people of today.

Essentially what he taught her was, not to become a Native American copycat. Appreciate the culture and learn about it, as it really is, not by fake Indians. However, beforehand, she should learned about who she was, and about her culture, which he told her she could be proud of. It was because of him, she stopped her rebellious attitude and began to grow.

In fact, she became a Christian, but also ended up with a full art scholarship.

He eventually moved back west where his family was and we never heard from him again.

I owe it to him for turning her life around.

Jim
 
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KarateCowboy

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There appears to be an underlining subtle attitude that Native Americans just need to get over the past atrocities committed against their ancestors. I can't help but wonder if a non-Native American would ever go up to a Jew and tell them to just get over the Holocaust. It's the past after all, so therefore, it should no longer matter.

There were as many Slavs killed in the Holocaust as Jews. Here is a relative of mine who died in Mauthausen. That's just one, on my dad's side(the semi-non-slavic side). My mother's side had more. I'm over it. You don't see me getting angry at modern Germans --and I've yet to see a paycheck!
 
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SolomonVII

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There were as many Slavs killed in the Holocaust as Jews. Here is a relative of mine who died in Mauthausen. That's just one, on my dad's side(the semi-non-slavic side). My mother's side had more. I'm over it. You don't see me getting angry at modern Germans --and I've yet to see a paycheck!
It would turn out to be ruinous to tie your salvation to receiving a cheque or reparations from the Germans anyway. Modern Germans, like modern Americans, fully recognize that they never have been a part of a superior race, but to the extent that Slavs would be dependent on receiving their livelihood from those Germans, this is very much the kind of relationship that reinforces Germans having the power, and Slavs being in the subservient role of dependency.

That would have in effect institutionalized the genocide.
 
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dzheremi

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There were as many Slavs killed in the Holocaust as Jews. Here is a relative of mine who died in Mauthausen. That's just one, on my dad's side(the semi-non-slavic side). My mother's side had more. I'm over it. You don't see me getting angry at modern Germans --and I've yet to see a paycheck!

This reads like you would like some kind of recognition for being as "over it" as you are. But notice how you are mentioning in a very nondescript way who has died ('a relative' from somewhere in your family). Might I suggest that the less you engage yourself in the historical reality of what has happened to your people, the less you feel connected to them, and subsequently, the less you care about them. Because that's what "over it" reads like to me, in the context of discussions like this. Not "I'm learning to work through the negative emotions regarding X", but "Why do other people still think about X? I don't. What a bunch of babies. Get over it!"

This year is the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide at the hands of the Turks and some of their Kurdish allies. From 1915 to 1918, the Turks killed an estimated 1.2 to 1.5 million Armenians. Armenia lost all of its historical lands in what is now Turkey (a huge, huge swath of the country; as a measure, Sevan Nisanyan, the lexicographer behind Index Anatolicus which charts the history of topographical names in Turkey, suggests that in excess of 3,600 Armenian place names have been Turkified since the early Republican period), ethnic Armenians who were not killed outright were scattered throughout the world, Armenian children who were orphaned by the genocide were put into Turkish families to be raised as Turkish Muslims (just as the Ottomans had done under the devshirme system in the Balkans with Slavic children), etc.

Plenty of people (mostly Turks and their Azeri and US allies) would probably like the Armenians to "get over it". Would you agree with them? Do you think it's really healthy to act in a detached manner to something that very nearly brought about the end of your people? Particularly when the effects of the past continue on to today? (In the Turkish case, the perpetrators are still denying what they did, so there's no use of even talking about an apology much less any checks...I highly doubt most Armenians are looking for monetary gain.)

I don't see a huge difference between what the Turks did to the Armenians (and Syriacs and Greeks, in separate but related incidences) and what the Europeans did to the Natives in the Americas. Greed for land and resources, assumed cultural/religious superiority, a sense of nascent 'national' exceptionalism surrounding their country or the glories of their empire (remember, the USA started out as a collection of British colonies) were behind all of these sad events. I would never tell an Armenian or a Syriac person (the true natives of what is now Turkey; the Turkification of the Anatolian plateau did not begin until relatively recently, in about the 11th century) to "get over" what has happened to them. They've lost their lands, their churches, their languages, their communities, and ultimately their futures in the lands they inhabited since time immemorial. If any group, be they Native American or any other, is fighting for their own future, how on earth can anyone not of that group tell them to stop doing that?

If tomorrow being a standard n-th generation American were made illegal by a foreign and illegitimate power's decree, probably very few of those people would "get over it". And if time had passed but the collective memory of what life had been like prior to the occupation wasn't kept alive by those Americans, who could claim it as a success? Certainly the foreign power, but whatever remained of the Americans probably wouldn't agree, assuming they had some way of learning their history.
 
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mark46

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This reads like you would like some kind of recognition for being as "over it" as you are. But notice how you are mentioning in a very nondescript way who has died ('a relative' from somewhere in your family). Might I suggest that the less you engage yourself in the historical reality of what has happened to your people, the less you feel connected to them, and subsequently, the less you care about them. Because that's what "over it" reads like to me, in the context of discussions like this. Not "I'm learning to work through the negative emotions regarding X", but "Why do other people still think about X? I don't. What a bunch of babies. Get over it!"

This year is the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide at the hands of the Turks and some of their Kurdish allies. From 1915 to 1918, the Turks killed an estimated 1.2 to 1.5 million Armenians. Armenia lost all of its historical lands in what is now Turkey (a huge, huge swath of the country; as a measure, Sevan Nisanyan, the lexicographer behind Index Anatolicus which charts the history of topographical names in Turkey, suggests that in excess of 3,600 Armenian place names have been Turkified since the early Republican period), ethnic Armenians who were not killed outright were scattered throughout the world, Armenian children who were orphaned by the genocide were put into Turkish families to be raised as Turkish Muslims (just as the Ottomans had done under the devshirme system in the Balkans with Slavic children), etc.

Plenty of people (mostly Turks and their Azeri and US allies) would probably like the Armenians to "get over it". Would you agree with them? Do you think it's really healthy to act in a detached manner to something that very nearly brought about the end of your people? Particularly when the effects of the past continue on to today? (In the Turkish case, the perpetrators are still denying what they did, so there's no use of even talking about an apology much less any checks...I highly doubt most Armenians are looking for monetary gain.)

I don't see a huge difference between what the Turks did to the Armenians (and Syriacs and Greeks, in separate but related incidences) and what the Europeans did to the Natives in the Americas. Greed for land and resources, assumed cultural/religious superiority, a sense of nascent 'national' exceptionalism surrounding their country or the glories of their empire (remember, the USA started out as a collection of British colonies) were behind all of these sad events. I would never tell an Armenian or a Syriac person (the true natives of what is now Turkey; the Turkification of the Anatolian plateau did not begin until relatively recently, in about the 11th century) to "get over" what has happened to them. They've lost their lands, their churches, their languages, their communities, and ultimately their futures in the lands they inhabited since time immemorial. If any group, be they Native American or any other, is fighting for their own future, how on earth can anyone not of that group tell them to stop doing that?

If tomorrow being a standard n-th generation American were made illegal by a foreign and illegitimate power's decree, probably very few of those people would "get over it". And if time had passed but the collective memory of what life had been like prior to the occupation wasn't kept alive by those Americans, who could claim it as a success? Certainly the foreign power, but whatever remained of the Americans probably wouldn't agree, assuming they had some way of learning their history.

We should not get over the holocausts. However, unforgiveness is a heavy personal burden.
 
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Red Fox

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We should not get over the holocausts. However, unforgiveness is a heavy personal burden.

It is very difficult to just get over the genocide of my ancestors when I reminded of it every time I see an American flag.

When I look at the American flag, I'm reminded of everything that we, as Native Americans, have lost in this country. I'm reminded of the death marches, the forced relocations, the massacres like Sand Creek and Wounded Knee, the small pox outbreaks, the theft of our sacred tribal lands, the kidnapping of Indian children who were forcibly assimilated and Christianized in the Indian Residential Schools, the attempted destruction of our culture, our way of life, our spirituality, our traditions, our heritage, and our humanity through cultural genocide, and the racial discrimination, the poverty, the alcoholism, the drug abuse, and the high suicide rate on the Rez that still plagues many of my people today. I can't see how I can just get over what happened when my people are still suffering from the ramifications of what happened to our ancestors to this day. We lost our rights and our freedom as the original inhabitants of this land. We are no longer the independent sovereign nations that our ancestors once were.
 
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dzheremi

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We should not get over the holocausts. However, unforgiveness is a heavy personal burden.

Isn't that for other people to decide? I mean, in this scenario, isn't it at least a bit horrible for non-native people to remind native people about the "heavy personal burden" that their non-forgiveness supposedly confers upon them? I'm not a Native American, but I have to believe that a Native American would be fully justified in saying "You're asking me to forgive you after you've taken everything from me; why am I the one with the heavy personal burden to bear on top of having nothing because of you, instead of you having the heavy personal burden for having taken everything from me, not giving anything back, and then patronizing me with talk about how much better forgiveness is than actually regaining what is rightfully mine that your ancestors stole to make this country that you rule?"

(I believe that because that's exactly what a Palestinian Christian friend of mine once said about the potential of peace with Israel. From memory, since it's stayed with me for years: "Give me my land back and then we can talk. There cannot be any talk of human rights on the terms of the one who has taken all my human rights away. How can I forgive you if I can't even meet with you because you took my land and barred me from returning to it, because you say it's yours now?" All good questions, I think.)
 
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GoingByzantine

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As human beings, we are innately connected to our homeland and our nation from birth. When were born into American society, we tend to view ourselves as belonging to a "great nation" that is rooted in values like freedom, liberty, and justice. It is very easy for us to criticize other people and nations; often times we even bomb countries/groups if they do not follow a moral code similar to our own. Many Americans seem to believe that our system of government is a model that the rest of the world should follow, and likewise many Americans have an elevated sense of self worth based on ideas of American moral supremacy. Basically, we like to believe that we have been a beacon of hope throughout history, when in truth we have not been. What this country did to the Native Americans is beyond evil, but patriotism causes Americans to forget the atrocities that this country committed, and sadly, some people even try to justify the destruction of Native American society.
 
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Red Fox

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As human beings, we are innately connected to our homeland and our nation from birth. When we're born into American society, we tend to view ourselves as belonging to a "great nation" that is rooted in values like freedom, liberty, and justice. It is very easy for us to criticize other people and nations; often times we even bomb countries/groups if they do not follow a moral code similar to our own. Many Americans seem to believe that our system of government is a model that the rest of the world should follow, and likewise many Americans have an elevated sense of self worth based on ideas of American moral supremacy. Basically, we like to believe that we have been a beacon of hope throughout history, when in truth we have not been. What this country did to the Native Americans is beyond evil, but patriotism causes Americans to forget the atrocities that this country committed, and sadly, some people even try to justify the destruction of Native American society.

Thank you for your defense. I truly appreciate it, my friend. While I agree with everything you said, I would also like to include the American ideals of exceptionalism and imperialism into the mix of why many Americans forget or even disregard the atrocities and the attempted genocide that this country committed against my ancestors.

I think the ideals of Manifest Destiny are still very much alive in this country. It has just been given other names to describe it, such as American exceptionalism and imperialism. The government of this country still takes land that doesn't belong to it, but instead of calling it Manifest Destiny, they now call it eminent domain.

db3f250d0b0fb885ef3f4cebcea52886.jpg
 
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