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Evolution/Creation on Trial

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How it's done is classified and not the fact it can be done.

How it's done is classified and not the fact it can be done.
Do you know the name of the program that does that? Do you have any sources on this?

I'm actually genuinely interested. automating tasks varies from very easy for inherently numerical tasks, to very difficult for some qualitative tasks.

tasks.png


Now, they have made some progress on that. Cornell labs has a beta version of a program that can recognize the species of certain birds with some user interaction to spot tips of beaks, wing tips, eyes, etc. From those it can match what is now numerical data against an index of known data point to recognize the species, but this only works on preprogrammed species and only with user assistance.

I could see a program that recognized buildings or cars without user interaction, but again, you would be recognizing preprogrammed parameters to assign a photo to a group of known designed objects, not recognizing design in new objects.
 
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essentialsaltes

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No worries give me a few years to go through this and learn it all and I will get back to you.o_O:rolleyes:

In the mean time I was thinking about the example of the eye and how evolution says that its not a problem to evolve. They use the example of simple eyes as with a film of gel or skin that can be light sensitive as an early eye. Dawkins uses a spot light through a simple lend and onto a wall as an example. But upon investigation I discovered that this is a misleading example. All this would do is act like a window for light. Without any nerve connection and connections to a brain to tell the eye that it is seeing light it is useless.

Even some one-celled creatures like a euglena have a light sensitive spot, allowing them to swim toward or away from light. (Thus, even a spot without any focussing ability at all is beneficial.) Some of the photoreceptive pigments of these creatures are rhodopsins, the same kind of molecules found in your retina for the same purpose.
 
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Loudmouth

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Such as the squid.
Squid and Humans Evolved the Same Eye


No, they didn't. The human eye, and all vertebrate eyes, have a backwards facing retina. The eyes in squid have a forward facing retina. Also, the embryonic development of each eye is different. They show all of the signs of independent evolution.

In different taxa such as Pterosauria (pterosaurs), Aves (birds), and Chiroptera (bats). But also in insects.

None of those are the same wing. The bat wing has more in common with your arm than it does with an insect.
 
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Loudmouth

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Yet now they claim that Neanderthal split and then mated with modern humans. How does this play out for your nested hierarchy?

Just fine. They were able to find the evidence of cross-breeding by looking at the phylogenetic signals in human and Neanderthal DNA.
 
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stevevw

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Even some one-celled creatures like a euglena have a light sensitive spot, allowing them to swim toward or away from light. (Thus, even a spot without any focussing ability at all is beneficial.) Some of the photoreceptive pigments of these creatures are rhodopsins, the same kind of molecules found in your retina for the same purpose.
Yes but the ability has nothing to do with vision which requires many different complex features to work. That is more or less a reactive mechanism just like follicles that repel in light or through vibrations. Evolution likes to find a similar feature to one of the thousands that will make up a complex ability like sight and say this proves evolution. They say by finding one it must prove evolution is true. It no more proves it than to say that a nut and bolt proves that a car motor evolved. There are thousands of other stages that need to be shown to prove evolution and one or two dont prove this.
 
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Loudmouth

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Yes but the ability has nothing to do with vision which requires many different complex features to work.

There are single celled organisms with functional eyespots, like the Euglenia. All it would take is a photosensitive chemical that interacts with a single other protein in a beneficial manner in order for light sensitivity to be beneficial.



They say by finding one it must prove evolution is true.

Finding intermediate eyes falsifies the argument that you have to have a fully functioning camera type eye all at once.
 
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stevevw

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There are single celled organisms with functional eyespots, like the Euglenia. All it would take is a photosensitive chemical that interacts with a single other protein in a beneficial manner in order for light sensitivity to be beneficial.

Finding intermediate eyes falsifies the argument that you have to have a fully functioning camera type eye all at once.
The point is between the eye spots and the fully functioning camera type eyes there is a multitude of sophisticated and complex ability that is unaccounted for. Its one thing to cite a level of function here and there which can also be expected for design. But there are thousands of other steps that are needed in between to build eyes. One being the optic nerve which has to happen at the same time as the eye.

But even the optic nerve isn't a single step to evolve by chance. Even a simple eyespot is complex with many steps and cannot be explained by chance mutations. If you want to use this step wise explanation as evidence then you need to cite how the thousands of steps occurred with many having to happen at the same time otherwise nothing will work.
http://hashem.com/the-impossible-eye/
 
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Astrophile

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I'm getting a little tired of making the same arguments to two different people in two different threads, but what is the mass of Pluto? Do you know what Pluto's mass is? Have you measured it? No? Well then, how can you know that Newtonian mechanics applies to Pluto? How do you know that Pluto doesn't have the mass of a cinderblock, and that it's not held in orbit by some supernatural cause? How could you possibly verify that Newtonian mechanics is applicable?

First, astronomers do know the mass of Pluto (it's 1.3E+22 kg), and they have known it, at least approximately, since the discovery of Pluto's satellite Charon in 1978. Second, the mass of a planet doesn't affect its orbit, any more than the mass of a falling object affects the time it takes to reach the ground. If Pluto did have the mass of a cinder-block it would still follow the same orbit.
 
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Loudmouth

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The point is between the eye spots and the fully functioning camera type eyes there is a multitude of sophisticated and complex ability that is unaccounted for.

And we have examples of intermediate eyes that span that gap. Even Darwin talked about them.

Its one thing to cite a level of function here and there which can also be expected for design.

That only makes sense if there is something that design does not expect. As we have seen in multiple threads, ID is unfalsifiable. No matter what the evidence is, you will claim that it is expected from design. Transitional fossils? Supposedly expected, but can never explain why. Nested hierarchy? Supposedly expected, but can never explain why.

But there are thousands of other steps that are needed in between to build eyes. One being the optic nerve which has to happen at the same time as the eye.

Blind animals can already have nerves and a use for those nerves.

But even the optic nerve isn't a single step to evolve by chance. Even a simple eyespot is complex with many steps and cannot be explained by chance mutations.

Please explain why it can not be explained by chance mutations.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Yes where did all that genetic code came from and exactly where does virus gets it's code since it can't reproduce of itself? Code and information is a real problem for evolutionist.

It just evolved, after reproduction and competition got started.


There is evidence of exogenous virus coming from ERV.
well duh, as far as the virus is concerned, that's the whole point!


The biggest changes are not due to genes so gene alone will not turn an animal into a scientist.

I suppose it also takes a shared cultural inheritance.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Again there are much better theory than your mutation theory. For example the theory that cooking made us human. Most theory for the evolution has to do with food to some degree. Often the nourishment we have can go to intelligence, strength, OR speed. Take your pick. The bird wants to fly so their energy is invested in strength for wings. The horse can be strong or fast. A race horse or a working horse. Need I go on?

Well, you can write a science paper on how birds want to fly and so their energy is invested in strength for wings and see how far that gets you. Me, I don't see the connection between an idea in a bird's brain and strength in a bird's wing. Can you explain that connection for me?
 
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stevevw

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And we have examples of intermediate eyes that span that gap. Even Darwin talked about them.
If anything Darwin talked about how complex the eye was and how he couldn't believe that it formed by gradual steps. The examples used are not proof of the evolution of the eye by small incremental steps. Evolutionist cite a few examples and what would be needed is 100s of examples. Because each stage of an eye is so complex even 100 stages wouldn't prove it. Unless each stage took on 100s of complex interconnecting parts in one go which would be incredible there can be no proof.

Just look at the neuron connects which show a web network of connects to different parts of the brain that control each part of the brain as one example that has 100s of small separate stages. That needs to come at the exact same time as the feature it controls otherwise there is no proper function and that would be rejected. They need to come at the same time as the cells and nervous system and that needs to come at the same time as tissues and blood vessels which all have many small stages.

So each stage would need 100s of chance undirected mutations to all work together fore the same end result purpose. It would be like throwing a 1000 letters up in the air at the same time and they all come down to spell out a specific paragraph. This would have to happen each and every time and at the same time as a second and third or even more sets of letters coming down and spelling out other paragraphs which all work together. Each Paragraph making up pages in a book which goes towards making a living creature. Each paragraph and page being in the right place, spelling the correct words and making readable sense.

Even when evolutionist cite a creature with a certain level of eye sight as one of the stages that stage is so complex they forget that there is an incredible level of stages to even make that which needs to be explained. They think by finding a few stages that this is enough proof to use for evolution. All this can be is to show the great level of design and the stages that can be used for design within the overall plan of design.

That only makes sense if there is something that design does not expect. As we have seen in multiple threads, ID is unfalsifiable. No matter what the evidence is, you will claim that it is expected from design. Transitional fossils? Supposedly expected, but can never explain why. Nested hierarchy? Supposedly expected, but can never explain why.
This can be said for evolution as well and this is the problem, the interpretation of the evidence. When evolutionists use features for showing transitions its a matter of interpretation. There have been many examples where the features that were used for a transitional such as the skulls found at Dmanisi. It was found that all the ape skulls found around Africa and labeled new species were just a variation of the same species. So evolutionists are to quick to make new species out of any variation of features so that it creates new transitional links for their theory.
Rather than being separate species, the human ancestors found in Africa from the same period may simply be normal variants of H erectus.
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.o...s-the-same-species-homo-erectus/#.UwRlMc7GD_Q

Blind animals can already have nerves and a use for those nerves.
See this is the blind belief that evolutionists have in their theory. Even the nerves for a blind creature are a complex system that just doesn't pop into existence in one go. If it does then evolution shows remarkable similarities to miracles. Then the rest of the systems, structures and small individual components of whatever those nerves are connected to have to be made in conjunction each even having a complex subsystem in place to operate them which seems incredible to be able to form in one go from chance mutations under a blind process that doesn't know what part is needed next. Each part not being able to work on its own and needing other complex things to work together.

Like some say its easy to cite a few examples and say that proves evolution because it shows a certain stage of the process. But each stage they show is full of other stages that are not accounted for. If you want to use that method then you need to show the thousands of stages. Otherwise you have to say that some of the complex things involved happened all at once. We are talking about the creation of complex things form something that was simple and didn't have the ingredients or information there in the first place to make. It follows the same sort of logic as making life from non life.

Ive already linked evidence of how complex the eye is. And the eye itself is a part of a greater system which needs to be explained as to how it can form by accident all being made in orchestration with each other. It makes any design we have ever tried to make look like child's play. I think its a denial or even culpable ignorance to not acknowledge the great design that is on display that goes beyond any naturalistic explanation.
Vision -- The Visual Pathway
The Human Eye


image510.jpg
When we come to the human eye, it is even more fascinating. Apart from having auto-focus, auto-exposure, excellent low light response, excellent depth perception that no camera comes close, the eye can perceive: 1. Velocity, 2. Direction, 3. Location, 4. Texture, 5. Identity, and 6. Colour.

The visual pathway is unique in human anatomy with its cris and crosses. The visual cortex is now the subject of intensive research. Functional MRI provides the best vehicle to study visual evoked brain responses in an awake subject. The primary visual cortex, V1, is "ignited" when the subject sees an object:

image390.jpg
The most amazing finding is: if the subject is asked to project a mental image without any external visual stimulus, another part of the visual cortex, V5, is then "ignited"! If this particular mental image possess special qualities, then the corresponding physical response of the body will be triggered off. Fantasia!
image400.jpg
Can evolutionist please explain such remarkable process.
http://www.hkam.org.hk/temp/counterevolution.html
Here is what makes up the eye with each and every part made up of smaller parts and systems. And even they are made up of further parts and systems each dependent on each other. Its when you get into the finer detail that the theory of evolution breaks down.
250px-Eye-diagram_no_circles_border.svg.png

1. vitreous body 2. ora serrata 3. ciliary muscle 4. ciliary zonules 5. Schlemm's canal 6. pupil 7. anterior chamber 8. cornea 9. iris 10. lens cortex 11. lens nucleus 12. ciliary process 13. conjunctiva 14. inferior oblique muscle 15. inferior rectus muscle 16. medial rectus muscle 17. retinal arteries and veins 18. optic disc 19. dura mater 20. central retinal artery 21. central retinal vein 22. optic nerve 23. vorticose vein 24. bulbar sheath 25. macula 26. fovea 27. sclera 28. choroid 29. superior rectus muscle 30. retina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_eye
Please explain why it can not be explained by chance mutations.
Because of the way that these incredibly complex things are made. They dont just pop into existence in one go. Even the simplest ones cant do that. In many cases there would need to be many beneficial chance mutations happening at the same time. Test have been done to show how impossible it is for even a couple of mutations to happen at the same time. Because each mutation doesn't know what the previous one has started. So the following mutation is only a 1 in thousands if not millions of chances to get it right.

It will produce the many neutral and negative ones in between which have to be dealt with. Being that mutations can be very harmful to fitness and recent research has shown that they maybe mostly harmful this would be a unbelievable way to create something better and more functional that what was already made good. Remember mutations are basically copying mistakes.
Peer-Reviewed Science Has Now Demonstrated the Implausibility of Evolving New Proteins
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3249626/posts
 
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Smidlee

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It just evolved, after reproduction and competition got started.
"Stuff happens." is not an explanation. That's is nothing but "The nature god of the gaps".


well duh, as far as the virus is concerned, that's the whole point!
Then you got another the chicken or the egg problem . Genes gets it's code from ERV which is suppose be the origins of the viruses.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Well, you can write a science paper on how birds want to fly and so their energy is invested in strength for wings and see how far that gets you. Me, I don't see the connection between an idea in a bird's brain and strength in a bird's wing. Can you explain that connection for me?
First of all I am beginning with the latest research on how eating a plant based diet that is high in nutrition and low in calories can prevent disease and at times even reverse disease. Like diabetes, cancer, heart disease, arthritis and so on.

From there I go to books like "Catching Fire how cooking made us human" and "the Botany of Desire". So I want to take these totally different branches of science and compare them to see if they agree or conflict with each other. I have not looked into the paleo or cave man diet to see what that may contribute.

The basic idea is "humans evolved nutritional needs specific to the foods available at that time, and that the nutritional needs of modern humans remain best adapted to the diet of their Paleolithic ancestors. Proponents claim that human metabolism has been unable to adapt fast enough to handle many of the foods that have become available since the advent of agriculture." Wiki

I tend to think food is evolving or can be improved through artificial selection. Only we need to put some effort into making that happen through research and scientific inquiry into what really constitutes a healthy nutritious diet.

It has been suggested that cows don't fly because the food they eat is not very nutritious so it takes a big stomach just to digest it. Birds have a higher quality food that requires less stomach to digest keeping them lighter, trimmer yet still able to develop muscles and strength in their wings. The book looks at the different diet of different types of monkeys and apes and makes an attempt to compare diet with their various strenghts abilities or weakness in comparison to other species.

So the theory is people with a big tummy have a diet low in nutrition. People with a tiny tummy have a high nutritious diet that gives them strength and energy with less of an investment in digestion.
 
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joshua 1 9

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If anything Darwin talked about how complex the eye was and how he couldn't believe that it formed by gradual steps. The examples used are not proof of the evolution of the eye by small incremental steps. Evolutionist cite a few examples and what would be needed is 100s of examples. Because each stage of an eye is so complex even 100 stages wouldn't prove it. Unless each stage took on 100s of complex interconnecting parts in one go which would be incredible there can be no proof.

Just look at the neuron connects which show a web network of connects to different parts of the brain that control each part of the brain as one example that has 100s of small separate stages. That needs to come at the exact same time as the feature it controls otherwise there is no proper function and that would be rejected. They need to come at the same time as the cells and nervous system and that needs to come at the same time as tissues and blood vessels which all have many small stages.

So each stage would need 100s of chance undirected mutations to all work together fore the same end result purpose. It would be like throwing 1000 letters up in the air at the same time and they all come down to spell out a specific paragraph each and every time and at the same time as a second and third or even more sets coming down and spelling out other paragraphs which all work together to read out pages in a book which are in the right place and are coherent.

Even when evolutionist cite a creature with a certain level of eye sight as one of the stages that stage is so complex they forget that there is an incredible level of stages to even make that which needs to be explained. They think by finding a few stages that this is enough proof to use for evolution. All this can be is to show the great level of design and the stages that can be used for design within the overall plan of design.

This can be said for evolution as well and this is the problem, the interpretation of the evidence. When evolutionists use features for showing transitions its a matter of interpretation. There have been many examples where the features that were used for a transitional such as the skulls found at Dmanisi. It was found that all the ape skulls found around Africa and labeled new species were just a variation of the same species. So evolutionists are to quick to make new species out of any variation of features so that it creates new transitional links for their theory.
Rather than being separate species, the human ancestors found in Africa from the same period may simply be normal variants of H erectus.
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.o...s-the-same-species-homo-erectus/#.UwRlMc7GD_Q

See this is the blind belief that evolutionists have in their theory. Even the nerves for a blind creature are a complex system that just doesn't pop into existence in one go. If it does then evolution shows remarkable similarities to miracles. Then the rest of the systems, structures and small individual components of whatever those nerves are connected to have to be made in conjunction each even having a complex subsystem in place to operate them which seems incredible to be able to form in one go from chance mutations under a blind process that doesn't know what part is needed next. Each part not being able to work on its own and needing other complex things to work together.

Like some say its easy to cite a few examples and say that proves evolution because it shows a certain stage of the process. But each stage they show is full of other stages that are not accounted for. If you want to use that method then you need to show the thousands of stages. Otherwise you have to say that some of the complex things involved happened all at once. We are talking about the creation of complex things form something that was simple and didn't have the ingredients or information there in the first place to make. It follows the same sort of logic as making life from non life.

Ive already linked evidence of how complex the eye is. And the eye itself is a part of a greater system which needs to be explained as to how it can form by accident all being made in orchestration with each other. It makes any design we have ever tried to make look like child's play. I think its a denial or even culpable ignorance to not acknowledge the great design that is on display that goes beyond any naturalistic explanation.
Vision -- The Visual Pathway
The Human Eye


image510.jpg
When we come to the human eye, it is even more fascinating. Apart from having auto-focus, auto-exposure, excellent low light response, excellent depth perception that no camera comes close, the eye can perceive: 1. Velocity, 2. Direction, 3. Location, 4. Texture, 5. Identity, and 6. Colour.

The visual pathway is unique in human anatomy with its cris and crosses. The visual cortex is now the subject of intensive research. Functional MRI provides the best vehicle to study visual evoked brain responses in an awake subject. The primary visual cortex, V1, is "ignited" when the subject sees an object:

image390.jpg
The most amazing finding is: if the subject is asked to project a mental image without any external visual stimulus, another part of the visual cortex, V5, is then "ignited"! If this particular mental image possess special qualities, then the corresponding physical response of the body will be triggered off. Fantasia!
image400.jpg
Can evolutionist please explain such remarkable process.
http://www.hkam.org.hk/temp/counterevolution.html
Here is what makes up the eye with each and every part made up of smaller parts and systems. And even they are made up of further parts and systems each dependent on each other. Its when you get into the finer detail that the theory of evolution breaks down.
250px-Eye-diagram_no_circles_border.svg.png

1. vitreous body 2. ora serrata 3. ciliary muscle 4. ciliary zonules 5. Schlemm's canal 6. pupil 7. anterior chamber 8. cornea 9. iris 10. lens cortex 11. lens nucleus 12. ciliary process 13. conjunctiva 14. inferior oblique muscle 15. inferior rectus muscle 16. medial rectus muscle 17. retinal arteries and veins 18. optic disc 19. dura mater 20. central retinal artery 21. central retinal vein 22. optic nerve 23. vorticose vein 24. bulbar sheath 25. macula 26. fovea 27. sclera 28. choroid 29. superior rectus muscle 30. retina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_eye
Because of the way that these incredibly complex things are made. They dont just pop into existence in one go. Even the simplest ones cant do that. In many cases there would need to be many beneficial chance mutations happening at the same time. Test have been done to show how impossible it is for even a couple of mutations to happen at the same time. Because each mutation doesn't know what the previous one has started. So the following mutation is only a 1 in thousands if not millions of chances to get it right.

It will produce the many neutral and negative ones in between which have to be dealt with. Being that mutations can be very harmful to fitness and recent research has shown that they maybe mostly harmful this would be a unbelievable way to create something better and more functional that what was already made good. Remember mutations are basically copying mistakes.
Peer-Reviewed Science Has Now Demonstrated the Implausibility of Evolving New Proteins
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3249626/posts
Irreducible complexity did not stand up in court. People wanted it taught in the schools along with evolution but they lost in court.
 
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SteveB28

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If anything Darwin talked about how complex the eye was and how he couldn't believe that it formed by gradual steps.

You are repeating a common falsehood promoted by creationists. Would you care to reveal the rest of Darwin's comments, or are you content to hide behind the dishonesty of that claim?
 
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