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Universal reconciliation

Corduroys

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No I'm not leading anyone astray with my question. I'm just trying to see if you even belong in this forum. So far you're coming up short. If you don't know the answer just say so.

I wont be led away from my point by demands or accusations.

How does a believer in UR deal with the passage I quoted? It seems pretty straightforward to me, God contradicts UR, so what they believe is their own philosophy, the imaginings of their own mind and not what has been revealed to us.

I believe this false idea comes from admirable compassion towards the lost, but it simply is not the way things are.
 
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2KnowHim

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How does a believer in UR deal with the passage I quoted? It seems pretty straightforward to me, God contradicts UR, so what they believe is their own philosophy, the imaginings of their own mind and not what has been revealed to us.
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I believe this false idea comes from admirable compassion towards the lost, but it simply is not the way things are.

The scripture you quoted from Mat. "depart from me I never knew you"... is talking about the foundation of the works that they believed were founded upon Christ "The Rock" but when it came down to it, their foundation was NOT built upon the Rock, therefore He could say I never knew you....they had built there foundation on doctrines of men, and leaning on their own understanding and works that were not His...

But just because He says depart from me I never knew you, ....why do you think that, that is for all eternity??
It just simply means that all their works that they were doing was not in Him, therefore He doesn't know them.

But that doesn't mean they won't eventually. Again their works will be burned up, their foundation did not stand, but they will come to know Him. For it is written...

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

And if you think that this is only applied to Israel and Judah, look at again, and rightly divide the word of Truth.
This applies to all who have built their foundations upon something other than The Rock.


 
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2KnowHim

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Something else to consider too. Just because I know who the President of The United States is .....Is no sign that I know Him or that He knows me either, we've never met nor had a Relationship with one another. This is the way that the scripture you quoted is to be taken.
 
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Corduroys

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The scripture you quoted from Mat. "depart from me I never knew you"... is talking about the foundation of the works that they believed were founded upon Christ "The Rock" but when it came down to it, their foundation was NOT built upon the Rock, therefore He could say I never knew you....they had built there foundation on doctrines of men, and leaning on their own understanding and works that were not His...

But just because He says depart from me I never knew you, ....why do you think that, that is for all eternity??
It just simply means that all their works that they were doing was not in Him, therefore He doesn't know them.

But that doesn't mean they won't eventually. Again their works will be burned up, their foundation did not stand, but they will come to know Him. For it is written...

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

And if you think that this is only applied to Israel and Judah, look at again, and rightly divide the word of Truth.
This applies to all who have built their foundations upon something other than The Rock.

He says "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven", not "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven at first", some people will not enter the kingdom of heaven, that is what makes me think when he says "depart from me I never knew you" that it is for all eternity, otherwise he would have said "everyone enters the kingdom of heaven eventually it is just a lot easier if you follow me" or something like that.
 
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Hillsage

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I wont be led away from my point by demands or accusations.
It was a simple question for clarification. And you refuse to answer because that threatens you? ....:wave: We don't need to dialogue IMO. Address some other UR posters here and they might entertain you.
 
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Hillsage

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Something else to consider too. Just because I know who the President of The United States is .....Is no sign that I know Him or that He knows me either, we've never met nor had a Relationship with one another. This is the way that the scripture you quoted is to be taken.
I have a verse for you to consider.

JOH 2:24 but Jesus did not trust himself to them, 25 because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.

 
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Rajni

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Actually NO, Saint Peter does not depict a "practice" of preaching to the dead. No. He references a trip to the realm of the dead by Our Lord God after His Death on the Cross (and before His Resurrection) to tell those waiting there for Him the Good news that they were now free to move on to Paradise (whatever that is) with Him. Those would be the same people that same Lord God depicted resting comfortably after death like Lazarus, as opposed to others in the SAME realm of the dead that were (and are) still suffering. Some of those same "freed" dead people would be "seen" for a time in Jerusalem after His death on the Cross.
The disobedient (1 Peter 3:20) resting comfortably ....
Interesting!

Did we ignore the rest of that verse? "specially of those that believe."
I'm not sure who "We" is, but I didn't. :)

In fact, the rest of that verse is what cinches it (for me,
anyway). As I pointed out previously (post #317), it
states that God is the Savior "especially" —
not "exclusively"— of those that believe.
Big difference, imo.

-
 
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Gregory Thompson

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If you are saying that Christ died for all that is one thing but not all will accept Salvation. Just because He died for the whole world(speaking as a Libertarian Free Will advocate and not a Calvinist as they teach a different doctrine on Christ's atonement)doesn't mean all will come to Him and be saved.

UR teaches that Christ reconciles all but that's not Biblical. As I stated a while back it seems fruitless for God to come to the world as flesh and blood and die a horrible death if the eternal plan was to forgive everyone no matter who.

The bible does teach God being the savior of all in a number of places, the way the bible presents it .. one must decide how to judge God as a person.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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The disobedient (1 Peter 3:20) resting comfortably ....
Interesting!
LOL, so by this remark do you mean to suggest Jesus lied when He depicted a righteous man in complete comfort after death?
I did not think so.
BTW, Saint Peter read in context (it was a complete letter not disjointed talking points) is making my case.
Like God Himself depicted, the dead before His Death are in a common "realm" and divided into two groups, and only one of which is shown suffering greatly. Saint Peter is collectively speaking of ALL the spirits in that realm. Just like some of the folks before the flood were disobedient and SOME (8 he says) were saved by water. Saint Peter goes on to say so are some in the realm of the dead freed (to live according to God). But just like the times of Noah, Saint Peter notes some of the spirits in the realm of the dead were disobedient - that would be the ones suffering. Saint Peter is making a connection between what Noah did and Jesus did. But just like Noah did not save all, neither does Jesus "free" all from the realm of the dead when He descended there - but those He does free are "saved" more perfectly than what Noah did - the connection is water (flood and baptism).
Towards the end of the same section of the letter (4:6) he explains why the Gospels was preached in the realm of the dead. BTW as the Gospel message is primarily His Love demonstrated in His suffering and death, which frees those that were waiting for Him (in comfort like Lazarus) who had suffered the judgment of men in this life but upon hearing the Good News could then rise (spiritually) with Him to "LIVE according to God".

I'm not sure who "We" is, but I didn't. :)

In fact, the rest of that verse is what cinches it (for me,
anyway). As I pointed out previously (post #317), it
states that God is the Savior "especially" —
not "exclusively"— of those that believe.
Big difference, imo.

-
Well taken out of context and changing a word to mean "especially" to help present that verse as proof of a UR belief already held is kind of convenient IMO. Especially given the same writer in the same letter says these things about this issue [my comments and underline added]:

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many [NOT ALL]; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

"For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" [VERY EXCLUSIVE] .

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
[MORE EXCLUSION - two groups of people - the damned and those that believe to the salvation of the soul]

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" [MORE EXCLUSION],


So I cannot agree that this Saint would agree that the word translated "specially" was meant to be understood as "not exclusive". Especially (pun intended), when every time he addresses it he makes it very exclusive.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Did you know that it is written in the bible that those who are born again are "firstfruits?" .. so what comes after us? remember the first creation, the light was declared first and the rest of the separations followed .. that though it seems exclusive in the micromanagement point of view day by day of creation to separate one thing from another .. in the end of the work it was all declared very good by God's eyes. So in the bigger picture God is inclusive .. giving room for uniqueness and genuine expression in the final work .
 
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Gregory Thompson

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when the ages and ages of torment are over and the masses emerge from the age of sin, those who were purified first .. will be like the angels .. and the newly freed captives will be as humans experiencing the love of God for the first time.
 
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2KnowHim

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He says "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven", not "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven at first",

some people will not enter the kingdom of heaven, that is what makes me think when he says "depart from me I never knew you" that it is for all eternity

otherwise he would have said "everyone enters the kingdom of heaven eventually it is just a lot easier if you follow me" or something like that.

True, that would have been easier to understand I agree, but then again if that was so ,then we wouldn't be having this convo.

That's the problem "you think" therefore you've not heard.

Not necessarily, for some it is given to know the mystery of the Kingdom, but for others it is not, thats why He spoke in parables. We must go to Him for the interpretation of scripture.

It comes down to a heart condition...how bad do you really want to know? It will cost you everything. Especially your preconceived understanding.
 
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Hillsage

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Well taken out of context and changing a word to mean "especially" to help present that verse as proof of a UR belief already held is kind of convenient IMO. Especially given the same writer in the same letter says these things about this issue [my comments and underline added]:
We are not the ones who "changing a word" to fit our theology YOU ARE. But first let's look at the word "especially/malista" to see what its Greek definition is.

STRONG'S 3122 malista: (adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly.

As you can see this is not a word of 'exclusion', but one of 'inclusion'..to a degree, as it is also used in the verse below.

GAL 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto ALL men, especially/MALISTA unto them who are of the household of faith.

And, as far as us being "Out of context" as you say we are? Lets just look at 'your context'. in the verse you quoted below.
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many [NOT ALL]; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
Same verse IN CONTEXT HEB 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for ALL at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ...28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Sometimes "many" means ALL if you really are 'in context' as WE are IMO.

ROM 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.

"For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" [VERY EXCLUSIVE] .
Correctly quoted but not correctly applied to the salvation process. You are a spirit/soul/body. Accepting Jesus doesn't save your soul. Not one verse in the bible says so. Jesus saves spirits, the Holy Spirit saves souls, and the Father saves/glorifies bodies. Those who are saved "especially/to the greatest degree" are those who believed in this age (spirit saved) and then began to 'work out your salvation (of their soul) with fear and trembling.' Some will work to a greater degree/malista than others receiving a greater reward IN HEAVEN. Jesus didn't go preach to souls and bodies in 1Peter, he preached to SPIRITS of men dead in both body and soul...in hell/gehenna.

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
[MORE EXCLUSION - two groups of people - the damned and those that believe to the salvation of the soul]
Geee, see how this lines up with what I just said. SOUL salvation and not spirit, not body.

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" [MORE EXCLUSION],
Gee, see how that lines up too? It's talking entering heaven because your SPRIT is JUSTIFIED (1Tim3:16). We are not talking about a SOUL that's SANCTIFIED or a body that's GLORIFIED.

So I cannot agree that this Saint would agree that the word translated "specially" was meant to be understood as "not exclusive". Especially (pun intended), when every time he addresses it he makes it very exclusive.
Which is how we USED to believe also. But with the enlightenment of the Spirit to one who seeks 'the truth' ,comes a change of theology.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Did you know that it is written in the bible that those who are born again are "firstfruits?" .. so what comes after us? remember the first creation, the light was declared first and the rest of the separations followed .. that though it seems exclusive in the micromanagement point of view day by day of creation to separate one thing from another .. in the end of the work it was all declared very good by God's eyes. So in the bigger picture God is inclusive .. giving room for uniqueness and genuine expression in the final work .
How "inclusive" was God at the flood or Sodom?
 
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Hillsage

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And how would you twist the Lazarus story to have our Lord God support the UR view?
Another waffling 'duck and dive', rather than deal with the truths presented to refute your last post filled with 'twisted' error. Honestly Bubba you guys are like trying to nail snot to a fence post IMO. Unlike ETers, we sought reasons TO BELIEVE in a real good gospel and not just defend the false traditions and teachings of men. You'll never receive any revelatory truth from God as long as you cling so tightly to the lies of the pharisees. Not even Jesus could change the religious minds of most of them. The political spirit and religious spirit are two of the toughest, and most prevalent spirits in the church today IMO.
 
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Rajni

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We are not the ones who "changing a word" to fit our theology YOU ARE. But first let's look at the word "especially/malista" to see what its Greek definition is.

STRONG'S 3122 malista: (adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly.

As you can see this is not a word of 'exclusion', but one of 'inclusion'..to a degree, as it is also used in the verse below.

GAL 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto ALL men, especially/MALISTA unto them who are of the household of faith.

And, as far as us being "Out of context" as you say we are? Lets just look at 'your context'. in the verse you quoted below.

Same verse IN CONTEXT HEB 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for ALL at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ...28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Sometimes "many" means ALL if you really are 'in context' as WE are IMO.

ROM 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Correctly quoted but not correctly applied to the salvation process. You are a spirit/soul/body. Accepting Jesus doesn't save your soul. Not one verse in the bible says so. Jesus saves spirits, the Holy Spirit saves souls, and the Father saves/glorifies bodies. Those who are saved "especially/to the greatest degree" are those who believed in this age (spirit saved) and then began to 'work out your salvation (of their soul) with fear and trembling.' Some will work to a greater degree/malista than others receiving a greater reward IN HEAVEN. Jesus didn't go preach to souls and bodies in 1Peter, he preached to SPIRITS of men dead in both body and soul...in hell/gehenna.

Geee, see how this lines up with what I just said. SOUL salvation and not spirit, not body.


Gee, see how that lines up too? It's talking entering heaven because your SPRIT is JUSTIFIED (1Tim3:16). We are not talking about a SOUL that's SANCTIFIED or a body that's GLORIFIED.

Which is how we USED to believe also. But with the enlightenment of the Spirit to one who seeks 'the truth' ,comes a change of theology.
Thank you, Hillsage, you did a far better job than I would've
been able to in addressing this.


-
 
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Hillsage

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Thank you, Hillsage, you did a far better job than I would've
been able to in addressing this.
-
Don't under estimate yourself. I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts without all the mental 'talking head' stuff I put out. The truth I'm reading in your posts truly touch my heart. But if one is 'close minded' or 'hard hearted' it matters not how good of a job we try to do IMO. God will not force the truth down their throats.
 
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