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Reopening the case against Galileo

Gracchus

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If the earth is alleged to spin on its axis at approximately 1,040 mph at the equator, and the earth is alleged to move around the sun at 67,062 mph and the solar system is alleged to spin around the galactic center at 514,000mph, and the galaxy is alleged to be moving at 2.24 million mph ... Altogether, when added together, if the Earth is alleged to move at multi millions of miles per hour in a careening fashion across the universe ...

1. Why do I observe that the stars stay in the same position night after night, year after year? They should be in different places all the time;
The observation is that they rise and set every day, and that the constellation we see change with the seasons.
ananda said:
2. Why don't airplane pilots have to make 1,040 mph compensations when flying east to west? Why are their flight calculations (to my knowledge) based on a fixed, unmoving earth? Why is it possible for airplanes to fly west to east? If an average airplane is traveling at 600mph, and it travels eastward, then according to the heliocentric theory, it is actually losing ground westward hour by hour because the earth beneath is traveling 1,040mph eastward (400mph faster than the airplane can travel!);
It has to do the the conservation of momentum. Sorry I don't have the time and the patience to repair your ignorance of high-school physics.
ananda said:
3. Regarding point 2, if the response is because the atmosphere is (allegedly) rotating along with the earth at 1,040mph, then why can clouds travel in various directions?
You apparently haven't noticed the winds, which are "attempts" to equalize gas pressures between points of different air density. Again, I have neither the time nor the inclination to remedy your ignorance.
ananda said:
Why can a little mosquito fly in whatsoever direction against this alleged immense gravitational pull which pulls along the atmosphere?
Many flying insects get blown down wind. Even airplanes have to compensate for wind velocity.
ananda said:
How do satellites stay in perfect synchronous orbit around the earth when the earth is drunkenly traveling millions of miles per hour around the universe?
The gravitational field of the Earth moves with it.
ananda said:
How far up must one go before one is no longer pulled in any significant way by the earth's gravitational pull?
What would you consider a "significant" pull? Given that information, it can be calculated.
ananda said:
IMO geocentricity makes more sense.
I do not doubt, Simplicio, that it makes more sense to you.
But was not good enough to get us to Mars.
It was good enough however to get several robots to Mars, which, if you stop to think it through, is even more remarkable than going ourselves.

:wave:
 
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joshua 1 9

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It was good enough however to get several robots to Mars, which, if you stop to think it through, is even more remarkable than going ourselves.

:wave:
You have to add Einstein to the equation if you want to go to Mars. You may be able to get to the moon without Einstein but you can not get the train to the next station on time without him.
 
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Gracchus

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You have to add Einstein to the equation if you want to go to Mars. You may be able to get to the moon without Einstein but you can not get the train to the next station on time without him.
Actually, you can get to Mars without considering relativity at all, although not efficiently. You just have to make some course corrections every now and then.
The big physical problems are with the human flesh: radiation, bone loss, et cetera. The really insurmountable problems are economic and political.

:oldthumbsup:
 
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The Cadet

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If the earth is alleged to spin on its axis at approximately 1,040 mph at the equator, and the earth is alleged to move around the sun at 67,062 mph and the solar system is alleged to spin around the galactic center at 514,000mph, and the galaxy is alleged to be moving at 2.24 million mph ... Altogether, when added together, if the Earth is alleged to move at multi millions of miles per hour in a careening fashion across the universe ...

1. Why do I observe that the stars stay in the same position night after night, year after year? They should be in different places all the time;

The earth rotates around the sun on a stable axis. The tilt is stable, and it is the relative rotation of the earth to the sun which causes the seasons, as this graph demonstrates:

f9f50294fb05713104b288a102d3d72a.png

Notice how the poles are always pointing in the same direction? As Cool Hard Logic so elegantly put it: "On the winter solstice, the North Pole is pointing towards... Polaris. On the vernal equinox, the North Pole is pointing towards... Polaris. On the Summer Solstice, the North Pole is pointing towards... Polaris. On the autumnal equinox, the North Pole is pointing towards... Betelgeuse. Just kidding, you guessed it, Polaris." The reason this doesn't change very much is because the distance from the earth to the sun is rather trivial compared to the distance from the earth to every other star in the galaxy. This is why stellar parallax was impossible to measure with the naked eye.

2. Why don't airplane pilots have to make 1,040 mph compensations when flying east to west? Why are their flight calculations (to my knowledge) based on a fixed, unmoving earth?

Find a fast, enclosed environment. Say, an airplane. When on this airplane, stand up and jump. Did you splatter yourself against the rear wall of the cabin? No? Why not? The plane, after all, is allegedly moving at some 600 miles per hour - you should be a wet smudge in a large dent! Does this mean that the plane is stationary?

No. The principle you are ignoring here is called "inertia". Objects in motion stay in motion until acted upon by some force. Airplanes do not have to compensate for that 1,040mph because to an observer outside of the earth's frame of reference, everything on the planet is moving at that speed.

Why is it possible for airplanes to fly west to east? If an average airplane is traveling at 600mph, and it travels eastward, then according to the heliocentric theory, it is actually losing ground westward hour by hour because the earth beneath is traveling 1,040mph eastward (400mph faster than the airplane can travel!);

Because it's traveling at 600mph relative to the ground (and the air around it).

3. Regarding point 2, if the response is because the atmosphere is (allegedly) rotating along with the earth at 1,040mph, then why can clouds travel in various directions? Why can a little mosquito fly in whatsoever direction against this alleged immense gravitational pull which pulls along the atmosphere?

Again, it has to do with inertia. Imagine you're floating in a fast-moving river. According to your frame of reference, you are stationary, and any movement you make against the river's current is adjusted for that. From outside that frame of reference, your normal movement in one direction is seriously expanded, and in another is muted, but that's because of the inertia you carry with you from your environment.

How do satellites stay in perfect synchronous orbit around the earth when the earth is drunkenly traveling millions of miles per hour around the universe?

Actually, this is more of a problem for geocentrism than for non-stationary models. Geostationary satellites constantly stay over the same spot on earth. How do they do this? Well, in the heliocentric model, the answer is pretty simple: they orbit at a high altitude and with enough speed that their centripetal force counteracts gravity and holds them up there. However, in a geocentric universe where the earth is not spinning, the satellite cannot be spinning around the earth in order to be geostationary - it must be fixed. So we lose centripetal force as a mechanism to keep the satellite up.

How far up must one go before one is no longer pulled in any significant way by the earth's gravitational pull?

Image50.gif


It's a simple exponential equation which tends towards zero, but it reaches pretty far - like, well beyond the moon far.

IMO geocentricity makes more sense.

You need to learn some basic physics. Geocentrism as an idea makes absolutely no sense of basically any of the lines of evidence we've discovered. How does geocentrism account for stellar parallax? How does it account for essentially all of modern space exploration? How does it account for retrograde planetary motion? How does it explain regular yearly meteor showers as we pass through the tails of comets? Geocentrism just is not a viable model for the universe.

It would only take a drop in the bucket - 4% of the 2014 US budget ($153 billion) - to go (allegedly) back to the moon, using the 1969 budget factored for inflation.

Right. $153 billion (that's about $500 per person) is just some trivial amount to spend on a mission which most likely would not accomplish anything new. By comparison, that $153 billion could house and feed how many homeless people for a year? It could fix how many roads and bridges? It could provide free medical care for how many people?

How is the flat earth a scam?

From what I've read, multiple railroad engineers have denied the need for factoring in the curvature of the earth in designing and constructing rail lines, and have always created them straight and level/flat - no matter the distance. IMO that is a good argument for a flat earth.

https://www.reddit.com/r/engineering/comments/2mik11/structural_engineers_at_what_point_does_the/

They actually do factor it in. Also, the flat earth completely violates the laws of physics, makes a mockery of gravity, and generally is just hilariously wrong.
 
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ananda

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The earth rotates around the sun on a stable axis. The tilt is stable, and it is the relative rotation of the earth to the sun which causes the seasons, as this graph demonstrates:

f9f50294fb05713104b288a102d3d72a.png

Notice how the poles are always pointing in the same direction? As Cool Hard Logic so elegantly put it: "On the winter solstice, the North Pole is pointing towards... Polaris. On the vernal equinox, the North Pole is pointing towards... Polaris. On the Summer Solstice, the North Pole is pointing towards... Polaris. On the autumnal equinox, the North Pole is pointing towards... Betelgeuse. Just kidding, you guessed it, Polaris." The reason this doesn't change very much is because the distance from the earth to the sun is rather trivial compared to the distance from the earth to every other star in the galaxy. This is why stellar parallax was impossible to measure with the naked eye.
The flaw in your model is this: in January, when the Earth is allegedly closest to the sun, it is 91.4million miles, whereas in July (summer thru most of the earth), we are allegedly 3 million miles further from the sun. You say it is the sphere's tilt that produces the seasons. This doesn't make sense. If the sun's heat travels over 90 million miles to the earth, how could a slight tilt (of a few thousand miles at maximum) have such a dramatic effect on the Sun's energy, giving us summer and winter simultaneously?

Find a fast, enclosed environment. Say, an airplane. When on this airplane, stand up and jump. Did you splatter yourself against the rear wall of the cabin? No? Why not? The plane, after all, is allegedly moving at some 600 miles per hour - you should be a wet smudge in a large dent! Does this mean that the plane is stationary? No. The principle you are ignoring here is called "inertia". Objects in motion stay in motion until acted upon by some force. Airplanes do not have to compensate for that 1,040mph because to an observer outside of the earth's frame of reference, everything on the planet is moving at that speed.
The flaw in your argument is this: you are alleging that the "straight-path" airplane is a small model of the Earth's movment. But the Earth is not allegedly traveling in a straight, constant path. It is allegedly spinning on its axis, spinning around the sun, spinning around the galaxy, and spinning around the universe, all at once - in a "drunken" spiral-like path around the universe. If the plane was spinning in multiple directions at once, yes I would expect to "splatter" on the cabin. You argument supports a flat, stationary earth theory ;)

Because it's traveling at 600mph relative to the ground (and the air around it).
See above, same flaw.

Again, it has to do with inertia. Imagine you're floating in a fast-moving river. According to your frame of reference, you are stationary, and any movement you make against the river's current is adjusted for that. From outside that frame of reference, your normal movement in one direction is seriously expanded, and in another is muted, but that's because of the inertia you carry with you from your environment.
See above, same flaw.

Actually, this is more of a problem for geocentrism than for non-stationary models. Geostationary satellites constantly stay over the same spot on earth. How do they do this? Well, in the heliocentric model, the answer is pretty simple: they orbit at a high altitude and with enough speed that their centripetal force counteracts gravity and holds them up there. However, in a geocentric universe where the earth is not spinning, the satellite cannot be spinning around the earth in order to be geostationary - it must be fixed. So we lose centripetal force as a mechanism to keep the satellite up.
Have you ever seen a satellite hovering over the earth with your own eyes?

You need to learn some basic physics. Geocentrism as an idea makes absolutely no sense of basically any of the lines of evidence we've discovered. How does geocentrism account for stellar parallax? How does it account for essentially all of modern space exploration? How does it account for retrograde planetary motion? How does it explain regular yearly meteor showers as we pass through the tails of comets? Geocentrism just is not a viable model for the universe.
Prove stellar parallax. Prove "modern space exploration". Retrograde planetary motion = Ptolemy's epicycles. Meteor showers do not prove heliocentricity.

Right. $153 billion (that's about $500 per person) is just some trivial amount to spend on a mission which most likely would not accomplish anything new. By comparison, that $153 billion could house and feed how many homeless people for a year? It could fix how many roads and bridges? It could provide free medical care for how many people?
Nah, they would rather spend that money on building more war machines.

They actually do factor it in. Also, the flat earth completely violates the laws of physics, makes a mockery of gravity, and generally is just hilariously wrong.
Engineer W. Winckler: “As an engineer of many years standing, I saw that this absurd allowance is only permitted in school books. No engineer would dream of allowing anything of the kind. I have projected many miles of railways and many more of canals and the allowance has not even been thought of, much less allowed for. This allowance for curvature means this - that it is 8” for the first mile of a canal, and increasing at the ratio by the square of the distance in miles; thus a small navigable canal for boats, say 30 miles long, will have, by the above rule an allowance for curvature of 600 feet. Think of that and then please credit engineers as not being quite such fools. Nothing of the sort is allowed. We no more think of allowing 600 feet for a line of 30 miles of railway or canal, than of wasting our time trying to square the circle
 
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DogmaHunter

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Any questioning of accepted scientific dogma

What dogma?

is attacked for all of the same political reasons that Galileo was attacked. It is amazing to me that those who do the attacking don't see the resemblance.

Examples?
 
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DogmaHunter

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So when a judge sides with the "scientific consensus", just like the Catholic Church, and says that a state must stop saying that there might be some problems with evolution, not that it must stop teaching that there are problems, just saying there might be, that not similar? I find your reasoning astounding.

1. Gallilleo didn't get a fair trial, if I recall correctly.
2. theists tried to do to science what the church did to Gallilleo. They failed. Deal with it.
 
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ananda

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Have we got a genuine flat-Earther? How exciting! We haven't had one of those here for a while.
:oldthumbsup:

It's hard to believe that there are still people this day and age who can deny their own senses, and instead drink the kool-aide of the Machine which convinced them that they're living on a huge version of the Teacup (amusement ride) ... yet feel not a single bit of the expected combined gravitational, inertial, kinematic, and centrifugal forces of the "spherical" Earth spinning on its axis, rotating around the sun, whirling around the galaxy, and twisting around the universe at a combined millions of miles per hour ... nor see any evidence of this virtually drunken movment of the Earth in star trail photography.
 
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Loudmouth

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The flaw in your model is this: in January, when the Earth is allegedly closest to the sun, it is 91.4million miles, whereas in July (summer thru most of the earth), we are allegedly 3 million miles further from the sun. You say it is the sphere's tilt that produces the seasons. This doesn't make sense. If the sun's heat travels over 90 million miles to the earth, how could a slight tilt (of a few thousand miles at maximum) have such a dramatic effect on the Sun's energy, giving us summer and winter simultaneously?

It is the watts/m^2 that matters. The part of the Earth that is tilting away gets fewer photons per square meter than the side of the Earth that is tilted towards the Sun. This is also why it is colder at the poles than at the equator, no matter what season it is.

The flaw in your argument is this: you are alleging that the "straight-path" airplane is a small model of the Earth's movment. But the Earth is not allegedly traveling in a straight, constant path.

It is travelling in a straight path. It is space itself that is bent by gravity.

If the plane was spinning in multiple directions at once, yes I would expect to "splatter" on the cabin. You argument supports a flat, stationary earth theory ;)

Why not in one direction? If the airplane is going 600 mph due West, why don't you end up splattered at the back of the plane if you jump in the air?
 
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joshua 1 9

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This is also why it is colder at the poles than at the equator, no matter what season it is.
There is a 50 degree difference from equator to the poles. That is why we have air and water streams and a lot of our weather as the global temp is getting balanced.
 
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ananda

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It is the watts/m^2 that matters. The part of the Earth that is tilting away gets fewer photons per square meter than the side of the Earth that is tilted towards the Sun. This is also why it is colder at the poles than at the equator, no matter what season it is.
Yes, I understand that's the heliocentric perspective; then the ice at the north pole should melt during mid-year.

It is travelling in a straight path. It is space itself that is bent by gravity.
Straight path? I thought that the heliocentric theory teaches this:


Why not in one direction? If the airplane is going 600 mph due West, why don't you end up splattered at the back of the plane if you jump in the air?
That's because I'm traveling at 600mph with the plane. What I'm saying is, if the plane was traveling 600 mph West, AND spinning like a top around its center at 600mph, AND circling around a skyscraper at 600mph simultaneously, then, if I jumped, I would splatter.
 
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pshun2404

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I hear the accusation from time to time but where in the Bible does God say the Universe is earth centered?

And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so.

This passage only speaks to some of the reasons, for the earth, that we have stars and moons

He stretches out the north over the void (the vastness of space) and hangs the earth on nothing.

There are no chains or poles or “Things” the earth rests on…to an ancient the earth just hangs in space unsupported...

He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

It limitations and parameters are established so it should not vary from its path or place in the Solar System

It is He, who sits above the circle (roundness; sphere) of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in

The world is round!

You see my brothers and sisters we must not believe what we are told but rather test all things according to the word. Just as the Roman Catholic church was incorrect so are these modern accusers. Being a Christian does not require a geocentric view neither was such a notion anything the Lord gave us...the Bible also does NOT teach flatworld

Paul
 
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