An Article I Found Validating Christ's Deity

[Kutte]

Kutte,
It makes no sense to you because of your view of Who God is and your view Scripture which seems incongruent to me. First of all, "My God, My God...." is the beginning of a song, which happens to be one any faithful Jew of the day would have imediately recognized and it is a victory song, which seems much more fitting than seeing Our Savior in dispair. Just saying.

Second, as I keep saying - our belief that God became Man is not like picturing Zeus or Poseidon or Odin (Harbard on Vikings) "taking" a human "form". So Jesus is BOTH a real Man AND STILL God. God is Spirit and as such cannot be "nailed" to anything or confined to a human body and soul. God is Eternal, which means He cannot die. Jesus is God AND a Man. Not God at one moment and man the next. He is and remains at all times BOTH. Becoming a man did not suddenly make(change) God mortal or limited or changing. God stayed the same, but One of the Persons is also now a living Man - united with a real human body (now resurrecrted) and soul. When Jesus gave up His human spirit on the Cross, that spirit is still one with the Spirit - IOW about the third hour of the watch the man Jesus dies, yet that human still exists as a soul. So even during those three days, the soul of the man Jesus is still rightly called God, just as He remains God and Man when that same soul is resurrected with a body.

So my answer, despite what you imply, solves your imagined problem because the problem only exists in the minds of those who do not understand what is meant by Jesus being BOTH God and a man. The humanity (human nature - which entails having a real human body and a human soul) of Jesus was just like the rest of us, born mortal. By unlike any one else who has or will ever live, He has another Nature - the Son of God, the Word, Who was and is Eternal, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God.....

Dear DrBubbaLove,

Okay, that the sentence "My God, My God..." is part of a Jewish song is news to me. But we still have a problem, a deep one at that.
We can't have it both ways. Either Jesus Christ was truly human or he was a deity. A true human has no affiliation with a deity. Being truly human myself I cannot claim to be God at the same time. If Jesus was God then his crucifixion becomes a farce, unreal, because God knew in advance that he would not die and that He could raise himself easily from His unlikely death any time He wishes. In this sense, the entire crucifixion episode becomes a performance, a theatrical play, nothing else.

Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

Dear DrBubbaLove,

Okay, that the the sentence "My God, My God..." is part of a Jewish song is news to me. But we still have a problem, a deep one at that.
We can't have it both ways. Either Jesus Christ was truly human or he was a deity. A true human has no affiliation with a deity. Being truly human myself I cannot claim to be God at the same time. If Jesus was God then his crucifixion becomes a farce, unreal, because God knew in advance that he would not die and that He could raise himself easily from His unlikely death any time He wishes. In this sense, the entire crucifixion episode becomes a performance, a theatrical play, nothing else.

Kutte

My goodness you seem to have found something that is impossible for God to do. My compliments.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dear DrBubbaLove,

Okay, that the the sentence "My God, My God..." is part of a Jewish song is news to me. But we still have a problem, a deep one at that.
We can't have it both ways. Either Jesus Christ was truly human or he was a deity. A true human has no affiliation with a deity. Being truly human myself I cannot claim to be God at the same time. If Jesus was God then his crucifixion becomes a farce, unreal, because God knew in advance that he would not die and that He could raise himself easily from His unlikely death any time He wishes. In this sense, the entire crucifixion episode becomes a performance, a theatrical play, nothing else.

Kutte

There is a tendency for those newer to thinking on these things that such thoughts never occurred to anyone until "modern" times. One cannot critique a view by first describing the view as something it is not - we have been very explicit - the view is that Jesus is BOTH fully God (Person=Son of God) and fully man. So He is Divine and human. And again, am not sure why I should think our Creator incapable of pulling that off.

You correct He must be a Man, not only to have died on the Cross but also Justice requires a Man make right with God what man undid. The necessity of His being human does not preclude that Man from also being Divine. The two natures are united as a single individual - but that individual still has two distinct natures. Given one of those natures is Divine, it is impossible for that Nature to be anything but what it was, is and ever shall be; Eternal. The Son of God did not change His Nature in becoming man. No, In the Incarnation His Nature (a Spirit) is united with a human nature (a body and a soul).

 

[Kutte]

[

My goodness you seem to have found something that is impossible for God to do. My compliments.

There is a tendency for those newer to thinking on these things that such thoughts never occurred to anyone until "modern" times. One cannot critique a view by first describing the view as something it is not - we have been very explicit - the view is that Jesus is BOTH fully God (Person=Son of God) and fully man. So He is Divine and human. And again, am not sure why I should think our Creator incapable of pulling that off.

You correct He must be a Man, not only to have died on the Cross but also Justice requires a Man make right with God what man undid. The necessity of His being human does not preclude that Man from also being Divine. The two natures are united as a single individual - but that individual still has two distinct natures. Given one of those natures is Divine, it is impossible for that Nature to be anything but what it was, is and ever shall be; Eternal. The Son of God did not change His Nature in becoming man. No, In the Incarnation His Nature (a Spirit) is united with a human nature (a body and a soul).

DrBubbaLove,

The times when Jesus Christ walked the earth were considered by His contemporaries as new and modern as well. And much of what Jesus Christ was saying offended the religious establishment.

What are the characteristics of being "truly human"? A truly human makes mistakes now and then, he lies now and then, he gives in to temptations now and then, he cheats now and then, he is not a deity comparable to God his creator at the same time. If Jesus Christ did not have any of these characteristics he was not truly human.

Der Alter,

The issue is not what is possible or impossible for God to do, rather what is a sensible thing to do.

Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter,

The issue is not what is possible or impossible for God to do, rather what is a sensible thing to do.

Kutte

And you decide what is or is not sensible to God?

Isa 55:8-11
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(10) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
(11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.​

 

[Kutte]

And you decide what is or is not sensible to God?

Isa 55:8-11
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(10) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
(11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.​

Hi Der Alter,

Great quotations. Thanks.

While speaking of thoughts, here is what Jesus Christ had to say while emphasizing his difference from God the Father:
"I am not teaching you my own thoughts, but those of God who sent me." John 7:16

"I must preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God for that is why I was sent." Luke 4:43

"For I have not spoken of myself, but the Father who sent me." John 12:49

Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Der Alter,
Great quotations. Thanks.

While speaking of thoughts, here is what Jesus Christ had to say while emphasizing his difference from God the Father:
"I am not teaching you my own thoughts, but those of God who sent me." John 7:16

"I must preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God for that is why I was sent." Luke 4:43

"For I have not spoken of myself, but the Father who sent me." John 12:49
Kutte

And you think these out-of-context proof texts prove what? Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}​

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ​

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.​

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”
​

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes​

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

‘O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas”

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

“Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias”

(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.

“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.

Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article​

 

[Kutte]

And you think these out-of-context proof texts prove what? Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}​

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ​

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.​

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”
​

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes​

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

‘O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas”

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

“Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias”

(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.

“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.

Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article​

Hi Der Alter,

What you call "out of context" quotes are showing is that Jesus was God's inspired messenger. One of His main objectives was to preach the "Good News of the Kingdom of God". These quotes also prove that He was a separate being, not God himself, while emphasizing that He was "sent" by God.

As far as the issue of "what was Jesus' form before" is concerned, nobody really knows. Scriptures leave this question wide open to speculation. Perhaps we too lived in another form and in a different environment before. With this we touch the issue of re-incarnation, a topic which does not belong in this thread.

Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Der Alter,

What you call "out of context" quotes are showing is that Jesus was God's inspired messenger. One of His main objectives was to preach the "Good News of the Kingdom of God". These quotes also prove that He was a separate being, not God himself, while emphasizing that He was "sent" by God.

As far as the issue of "what was Jesus' form before" is concerned, nobody really knows. Scriptures leave this question wide open to speculation. Perhaps we too lived in another form and in a different environment before. With this we touch the issue of re-incarnation, a topic which does not belong in this thread.

Kutte

Ignores my post. The passage I quoted states what Jesus' form was before. It also states He was "equal" with God. Lots of speculation in your post.

 

[PattyOfurniture]

Hi Michael,

Indeed. In John 10:30 Jesus is being quoted as saying: "I and the Father are one." It does not mean one and the same person but one in spirit. You see, an entire nation of people can also be ONE in spirit, for instance when wanting to defend itself against an outside aggressor.

Kutte

(My first post in four years, couldn't resist LOL)
You're exactly right Kutte, Scripture backs you up on this; 'And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one'

 

[Kutte]

(My first post in four years, couldn't resist LOL)
You're exactly right Kutte, Scripture backs you up on this; 'And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one'

Hi Patty,

Great post. Thanks for bringing it to the attention to anyone seeking the truth.

Kutte

 

[Kutte]

Ignores my post. The passage I quoted states what Jesus' form was before. It also states He was "equal" with God. Lots of speculation in your post.

Hi Der Alter,

Lots of speculation in my post? Can you be more specific? Equal does not necessarily mean the same. I can be "equal" with my desires to anyone seeking the truth of why Jesus Christ came as God's messenger. If you want to imply with your passage quoted that Jesus was God, then we are faced with pure speculation.

Wishing you well, Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Der Alter,
Lots of speculation in my post? Can you be more specific? Equal does not necessarily mean the same. I can be "equal" with my desires to anyone seeking the truth of why Jesus Christ came as God's messenger. If you want to imply with your passage quoted that Jesus was God, then we are faced with pure speculation.
Wishing you well, Kutte

Wrong! No speculation in my post. Unlike you I did not say things like "Perhaps we too lived in another form..." "I can be 'equal' with my desires . . . " Not only was Jesus equal with God but He existed in the form of God before making Himself in the form of man. Did anyone ever address you as "Desire?" Thomas addressed Jesus as "My Lord and My God."

 

[Der Alte]

(My first post in four years, couldn't resist LOL)
You're exactly right Kutte, Scripture backs you up on this; 'And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one'

The glory that Jesus had previously given to His disciples, referred to in vs. 22, was not the glory He was praying for in vs. 5. There is no pause in Jesus' prayer between vss. 5 and 22 where Jesus could have given His disciples anything so it was given before the prayer. The disciples were not one at the time of Jesus prayer, "that they may be one." Peter would deny Jesus and in the next chapter Judas betrayed Jesus.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: ​

 

[Kutte]

Wrong! No speculation in my post. Unlike you I did not say things like "Perhaps we too lived in another form..." "I can be 'equal' with my desires . . . " Not only was Jesus equal with God but He existed in the form of God before making Himself in the form of man. Did anyone ever address you as "Desire?" Thomas addressed Jesus as "My Lord and My God."

Dear Der Alter,

Speaking of equal does not necessarily mean the same. Do you realize that you too are, sort of, equal to God but not God himself? Remember when God created man the Genesis report tells us: "So God made man like his Maker. Like God did God make man." (Genesis 1:27) But man wasn't God himself, was he? The same applies to Jesus Christ.

Let's take this one step further in order to clarify the meaning of equal. The armed forces have many men of equal rank, but those equal rank carriers are all different persons, not just one.

Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

Wrong! No speculation in my post. Unlike you I did not say things like "Perhaps we too lived in another form..." "I can be 'equal' with my desires . . . " Not only was Jesus equal with God but He existed in the form of God before making Himself in the form of man. Did anyone ever address you as "Desire?" Thomas addressed Jesus as "My Lord and My God."

Dear Der Alter,

Speaking of equal does not necessarily mean the same. Do you realize that you too are, sort of, equal to God but not God himself? Remember when God created man the Genesis report tells us: "So God made man like his Maker. Like God did God make man." (Genesis 1:27) But man wasn't God himself, was he? The same applies to Jesus Christ.

Let's take this one step further in order to clarify the meaning of equal. The armed forces have many men of equal rank, but those equal rank carriers are all different persons, not just one.

Kutte

Read my post again, please. You omitted/ignored part of what I said. Here is more scripture.
.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Galatians 1:1, Galatians 1:3, Ephesians 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 2 Timothy 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] John 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Hebrews 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Philippians 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isaiah 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isaiah 44:6]​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Acts of the Apostles 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Acts 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Acts of the Apostles 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה /YHWH, Jeremiah 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה /YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה /YHWH, Psalms 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה /YHWH, Deuteronomy 1:34-35]​

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psalms 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deuteronomy 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה /YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Romans 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

 

[Kutte]

Read my post again, please. You omitted/ignored part of what I said. Here is more scripture.
.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Galatians 1:1, Galatians 1:3, Ephesians 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 2 Timothy 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13

[1] Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3]Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.

[7] John 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]

[11] John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]

[12] John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].

[16] John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.

[17] John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]

[18] Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.

[20] 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Hebrews 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Philippians 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;

[30] 1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]

[31] Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].

[34] Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].

[36] Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isaiah 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isaiah 44:6]​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה /YHWH, Jeremiah 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה /YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה /YHWH, Psalms 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה /YHWH, Deuteronomy 1:34-35]​

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psalms 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deuteronomy 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה /YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Romans 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

Dear Der Alter,

I am not in the habit of reading time consuming long pasted posts making one feel like being in school being lectured. I wish your would just stick to the basics and debate them.
Now, we both seem to agree that Jesus was not God but His messenger. True?

Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

Dear Der Alter,

I am not in the habit of reading time consuming long pasted posts making one feel like being in school being lectured. I wish your would just stick to the basics and debate them.
Now, we both seem to agree that Jesus was not God but His messenger. True?

Kutte

"Pasted" implies something less than honest. What I posted is entirely my own work. No, we can't agree, had you bothered to actually read my post you would have read this thesis statement.

"There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13"​

 

[PattyOfurniture]

Hi Patty,

Great post. Thanks for bringing it to the attention to anyone seeking the truth.

Kutte

You're welcome

 

[PattyOfurniture]

"Pasted" implies something less than honest. What I posted is entirely my own work. No, we can't agree, had you bothered to actually read my post you would have read this thesis statement.

"There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, Matt 1:23, Isa 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, 3, 4, 10, 14, 18, 10:33, 5:18,8: 58, 12;24, 14:9, 17:5, 10, 20:28, Act 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:14-16, 2:9, Eph 3:9, Heb 1:1:2-3, 8-12, 3:3, Phi 2:6, 1 Tim 1:1, 3:16, 6:15, Tit 2;13, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 17:14, 19;16, 22:12-13"​

Hi Der Alter

There is one Satan who is called/referred to as god in scripture:

2 Cor 4:4; In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

'god' not being capitalized in this verse means little more than the translators were almost assuredly trinitarian, considering the fact the Greek the original authors wrote the scripture(s) in was entirely uppercase.

A similar example of this is when Sarah is described as calling Abraham 'lord' in 1 Peter 3:6