Evolution/Creation on Trial

[Not_By_Chance]

His teachings may be correct but that does not mean he was divine. There are all sorts of errors in the Bible too so you need to provide a bit more evidence that support your claims.

Jesus clearly demonstrated His divinity by the actions He performed (raising the dead, turning wine into water, opening the eyes of the blind, walking on water, etc) and the things He said. If He weren't God, He would have to be considered as either a fool or a madman to quote C S Lewis (how many sane people do you know that offer to forgive other people's sins or claim that no-one can show that they have ever done anything wrong?). He's also made it clear that if you are not for Him then you are against Him, so there's no sitting on the fence option here.

 

[Not_By_Chance]

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me if it's been addressed already, but what are the quick cliff notes version that conclude Jesus never existed even as a historical figure ? Linking me to the appropriate post, if it exists, is fine, thanks.

I don't think there are many people around now who really believe that Jesus never existed. That's an old argument that has long been discredited.

 

[Not_By_Chance]

There are 13 epistles, of which only 7 are undisputed as far as I am aware. My source being bart d ehrman, in his popular series of books on the subject. I am no scholar, and do not claim to be. The wiki page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles gives a good summary.

Bear in mind however that the Bible both the most popular item of literature of all time but is also the most attacked and for good reason, because Satan wants to see it destroyed and will do anything to discredit it, but he won't succeed. There is so much misinformation about the Bible, especially now that we have the Internet, so some things need to be taken with a pinch of salt. If you really want to know what the Bible has to say, I would suggest getting hold of a copy of the New Defenders Bible with commentary by the late great Dr Henry Morris. He was a biblical scholar of the first order - what I would call a "giant" of a man. He wrote about 60 books I believe and was also a great scientist who wrote a very famous book called "The Genesis Flood". I have another of his books in my possession, called "The Genesis Record" which runs to over 670 pages and which goes into great depth about one of the most important but most attacked book in the whole Bible. Dr Morris also served on faculties on major Universities, including thirteen years as Chairman of the Civil Engineering Department of Virginia Ploytechnic Institute and State University. Clearly a very clever and well-educated man who still found time to devote much of his life to studying the Bible.

 

[Goonie]

Bear in mind however that the Bible both the most popular item of literature of all time but is also the most attacked and for good reason, because Satan wants to see it destroyed and will do anything to discredit it, but he won't succeed. There is so much misinformation about the Bible, especially now that we have the Internet, so some things need to be taken with a pinch of salt. If you really want to know what the Bible has to say, I would suggest getting hold of a copy of the New Defenders Bible with commentary by the late great Dr Henry Morris. He was a biblical scholar of the first order - what I would call a "giant" of a man. He wrote about 60 books I believe and was also a great scientist who wrote a very famous book called "The Genesis Flood". I have another of his books in my possession, called "The Genesis Record" which runs to over 670 pages and which goes into great depth about one of the most important but most attacked book in the whole Bible. Dr Morris also served on faculties on major Universities, including thirteen years as Chairman of the Civil Engineering Department of Virginia Ploytechnic Institute and State University. Clearly a very clever and well-educated man who still found time to devote much of his life to studying the Bible.

Thats nice, and there are similarly well qualified scholars argueing otherwise.

I always find the idea of an omnipotent god having an adversary absurd, one click of his fingers problem solved, otherwise he is not all powerful.

 

[The Cadet]

Jesus clearly demonstrated His divinity by the actions He performed (raising the dead, turning wine into water, opening the eyes of the blind, walking on water, etc)

Even assuming that there is historical evidence for Jesus's existence, there is absolutely none for any of these miracles.

and the things He said. If He weren't God, He would have to be considered as either a fool or a madman to quote C S Lewis (how many sane people do you know that offer to forgive other people's sins or claim that no-one can show that they have ever done anything wrong?).

There's nothing special or unique about Jesus's philosophy. People forgive each other all the time, and extrapolating to "God says he forgives you" is an entirely realistic step for someone who thinks they speak for that God. Realizing that nobody has lived a perfect, sinless life is similarly not wise; it's bog-standard pattern recognition. Can you name a single friend of yours who has never lied about anything? It gets even more blatantly obvious when you consider that Jesus considers thought crime to be something "wrong"; that merely looking at a woman with lust makes you a sinner (well, there goes literally everyone who has ever seen a picture of Scarlett Johannson). Speaking of which...

He's also made it clear that if you are not for Him then you are against Him, so there's no sitting on the fence option here.

Meanwhile, speaking of great wisdom, here's a great example of wisdom that is not great. This was stupid when Bush said it and it was stupid when Jesus said it too. In fact, much of what Jesus said was not particularly wise or great. Calling something which we have no control over a "sin" is not wise. Encouraging Christians to simply be victimized without fighting back is not wise. Treating things that make this life worth living as sinful and shameful is not wise.

 

[joshua 1 9]

His teachings may be correct but that does not mean he was divine. There are all sorts of errors in the Bible too so you need to provide a bit more evidence that support your claims.

There are no errors in the Bible. Only errors in interpretation. Still we are responsible to follow the teachings in the Bible. Take diet for example. People can claim no one agrees on what we should eat. Still people get sick if they eat junk food. Diabetes - cancer - heart disease are very real if you want to be healthy or sick is your choose. Here I am on a evolution forum but none of the so called evolutionists can tell me what evolution theory has to say about diet and what food we evolved to eat or even the roll food takes in evolution. You can argue with the Bible and what the bible says we can and can not eat. Still it's a lot more clear than what science and the evolutionary people say about it.

 

[Goonie]

Then please tell me on what day of the passover was jesus crucified?

 

[Goonie]

There are no errors in the Bible. Only errors in interpretation. Still we are responsible to follow the teachings in the Bible. Take diet for example. People can claim no one agrees on what we should eat. Still people get sick if they eat junk food. Diabetes - cancer - heart disease are very real if you want to be healthy or sick is your choose. Here I am on a evolution forum but none of the so called evolutionists can tell me what evolution theory has to say about diet and what food we evolved to eat or even the roll food takes in evolution. You can argue with the Bible and what the bible says we can and can not eat. Still it's a lot more clear than what science and the evolutionary people say about it.

There are no errors in the Bible. Only errors in interpretation. Still we are responsible to follow the teachings in the Bible. Take diet for example. People can claim no one agrees on what we should eat. Still people get sick if they eat junk food. Diabetes - cancer - heart disease are very real if you want to be healthy or sick is your choose. Here I am on a evolution forum but none of the so called evolutionists can tell me what evolution theory has to say about diet and what food we evolved to eat or even the roll food takes in evolution. You can argue with the Bible and what the bible says we can and can not eat. Still it's a lot more clear than what science and the evolutionary people say about it.

Oh and where did the light come from on the first day?

 

[AV1611VET]

Then please tell me on what day of the passover was jesus crucified?

Wednesday

 

[joshua 1 9]

I always find the idea of an omnipotent god having an adversary absurd, one click of his fingers problem solved, otherwise he is not all powerful.

The power of God is well understood by science.
God does not change. Science and what they believe changes all the time. What we call gravity has not changed only now we have Einstein's theory and not Galileo. Perhaps science does not always get it right but the laws of science do not change. Perhaps bible interpretation is not always right but the Bible like God is consistent and does not change.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Oh and where did the light come from on the first day?

Depends on your interpretation. What does evolution say about it. Do evolutionists agree on everything without discussion or debate?

We have science to help us with this also. So we can better understand what Moses is teaching us. Moses was raised as the son or grandson of a Egyption Pharaoh. He had the best science education available in his day. Also he received a religious education from his father in law when he was in exile from Egypt when he killed the supervisor because of his zeal for the Hebrew people living in Egypt at the time.

 

[Goonie]

Wednesday

Or if you go by john monday, he is reasonably specific on the day before passover, wheras the othe 3 gospels say the day after.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Jesus clearly demonstrated His divinity by the actions He performed (raising the dead, turning wine into water, opening the eyes of the blind, walking on water, etc) and the things He said.

Jesus was the Greatest teacher that every lived. In all the miracles there is a lesson to be learned. Peter tried to walk on water but apart from Jesus he was not able. In the same way without the Holy Spirt of God there are lessons we will not understand. God is able to guide us and lead us in the truth.

 

[The Cadet]

There are no errors in the Bible. Only errors in interpretation.

So who was Jesus's father's father? Who purchased the blood field? Why is it that despite knowing exactly what to look for in the case of a year-long global flood event 4000 years ago, we have not found any of the signs we would expect to sign? (Really, in this case, it's like if someone claimed a murder took place at a certain time and a certain place using a shotgun, and then we found neither any evidence of weapon residue, no bullet holes in the concrete, and the supposed victim is seen walking around without a care in the world.)

Here I am on a evolution forum but none of the so called evolutionists can tell me what evolution theory has to say about diet and what food we evolved to eat or even the roll food takes in evolution.

Generally speaking you can eat just about whatever you want and still make it through prime breeding age. As a result, diet has a fairly low impact on evolutionary fitness and so while evolution may be useful in determining what our bodies are well-adapted to eating, what that means may be something else entirely. Remember, it wasn't too long ago that being fat was considered a sign of great wealth and fitness.

You can argue with the Bible and what the bible says we can and can not eat. Still it's a lot more clear than what science and the evolutionary people say about it.

It's a lot more clear, but a lot more nonsensical as well. Why shouldn't we eat pork or shellfish? Pork is the go-to meat in Germany and one of the top choices in the USA due to its relative cheapness, great taste, and nutrient contents. Shellfish is a delicacy and often quite healthy. Neither of these dictates are really based on anything beyond perhaps divine fiat; at least, they haven't been since we figured out how to clean our food correctly.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Generally speaking you can eat just about whatever you want and still make it through prime breeding age.

No you can not. The son of a friend of mine ate whatever he wanted. He had disableing arthritis, morbid obesity and diabetes at the age of 31. He has 2 very small boys that him and his wife have trouble raising because of the obesity. They both recently had gastric surgery. That is what science has to offer if you want to ignore science in eating right - exercise - control stress. Even after surgery their are restrictions. For example you have to give up soda after surgery.

 

[joshua 1 9]

It's a lot more clear, but a lot more nonsensical as well. Why shouldn't we eat pork or shellfish?

Because of toxins. Sooner or later they will catch up with you. The American heart institute diet allows you a small amount of meat. That will still clog your artery but not enough to cause a heart attack or as you say, we are past child bearing years. Of course impedance is a circulation problem. Perhaps it takes long enough for you veins to clog so you are a grandparent by the time you have a stroke, heart attack or cancer. Or impedance so you can no longer produce children.

 

[TillICollapse]

I don't think there are many people around now who really believe that Jesus never existed. That's an old argument that has long been discredited.

Okay, what are the quick cliff notes version that show Jesus actually existed as an historical figure, apart from biased sources ?

 

[crjmurray]

Okay, what are the quick cliff notes version that show Jesus actually existed as an historical figure, apart from biased sources ?

You'll have to look at the evidence and decide what is biased or inaccurate yourself. The wiki page is a good place to start. I've read a couple books on the subject but I wouldn't recommend any of them. At least not as viable sources of evidence or information. Evidence for Christianity by Josh McDowell is a good example of the kind of nonsensical apologetics you'll come across in this endeavor. The Internet is probably your best resource. Just stay away from conspiracy theorists and apologetics and stick with what you can prove. Good luck.

 

[bhsmte]

Okay, what are the quick cliff notes version that show Jesus actually existed as an historical figure, apart from biased sources ?

Those independent sources are few and very far between.

Bart Ehrman has book on the subject and he concludes Jesus was likely a real historical figure. Ehrman is actually an agnostic and does not believe the gospels in general, are credible when it comes to accurately describing Jesus' life, but he sees enough to conclude he was likely a real person.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Okay, what are the quick cliff notes version that show Jesus actually existed as an historical figure, apart from biased sources ?

The real question is do you follow His teaching or not. Very few people are qualified to represent God. They have to take their priesthood serious.