Did Adam sin?

[danny ski]

Should we start another thread because this is getting off topic?

Just to answer, I think it could be entertained that both Israel and the Messiah are being referred to and this is causing confusion. Here is an example:

Isaiah 52:14

See, my servant;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness

Israel's face disfigured? It is very clear that it is a man that is being referred to here.

Another example:
Isaiah 53: 1-3

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

A man of sorrows? When was Israel despised and rejected by men? How did they hid their faces from Israel? Israel had no beauty?

Why is Israel sometimes considered a he and then sometimes a she?

Another interesting note, even though I believe there are some references to Jesus in Isaiah it is still interesting that the Jews rejected Him because He did not fulfill all of the the prophecies. He never did become the king of Israel.

The servant is named right in the text. Several times. His name is Israel. When was Israel rejected and despised by men? You must know no history at all to even ask such question. When was Jesus rejected and despised by men? He's universally accepted by the Christian world and beyond, is he not? If he came back as a messiah, would a couple billion of Christians be really surprised? Anyway. Israel is addressed in singular all the time. Hosea 11 1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son". Exodus 4 22 "Then say to the Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my first born son(...)"

 

[Isaacsname]

Who ?

" And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit "

Corinthians

" Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come "

Romans

 

[fatboys]

I'm just saying that Genesis is based on paganism. How is me starting that fact make me a pagan?

How can you say God created evil and then punish us for committing it? Wouldn't it have been better for evil not to have been created at all? In the Lord's prayer, Jesus says, "Deliver us from evil." In others words, deliver us from what God created." Make sense?

You are also insinuating that God created us evil. Why are the angels in heaven made perfectly? Why can they not be tempted?

It must horrify God that people think He created evil which, in turn, is the reason why some people commit things like murder and rape. Where is Satan's culpability in all this? Is he innocent?

If they had eaten from the tree of Life first maybe they would have known that, no means no.

The serpent saw them eating of all the other fruits, he spoke to her at length in order for her to answer him and get her talking about that tree.

He saw that they had not eaten of the tree Life.

Who ?

" And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit "

Corinthians

" Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come "

Romans

by one man came death both physical and spiritual. Also by one man will we be resurrected both physical and spiritual. If not both then the act of one man is more powerful than the act of another.

 

[fatboys]

The servant is named right in the text. Several times. His name is Israel. When was Israel rejected and despised by men? You must know no history at all to even ask such question. When was Jesus rejected and despised by men? He's universally accepted by the Christian world and beyond, is he not? If he came back as a messiah, would a couple billion of Christians be really surprised? Anyway. Israel is addressed in singular all the time. Hosea 11 1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son". Exodus 4 22 "Then say to the Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my first born son(...)"

How many Jews were and are going to be surprised that he has already came?

 

[LoAmmi]

I know what the explanation given for what you have said prior to me asking you these questions. I wanted you, in the interest, to give me that explanation. You say Isaiah 53 is omitted as it isn't relevant because it talks about suffering? That could be the official explanation but the real one is because it is a prophecy of the Messiah. Life is not all about comforting. Life is about talking about our struggles as well as our joy. To ignore suffering is not beneficial to anyone. It's hardly comforting to hear about the killings and misery God inflicted on the Egyptians. It's hardly comforting how God punished the Israelites but it is part of the scriptures.

I did not say it wasn't relevant because it talks about suffering. I said that it doesn't fit with the comforting passages selected in the lead up to Yom Kippur, when we focus on our own sins for a 26 hour fast. So the weeks leading up to it, we focus on some comforting passages. As for you asserting it's the real one because of the Messiah, prove it. Show me where the people who selected these said "nope, not this one, people will see it's about Jesus!".

How can Israel die for our transgressions?

Because of. The Hebrew says "because of" not "for" in the same way I might die because of the negligence of another, not for the negligence of another.

When did this happen? Not to harp on it, but you know... the 1940s is a good example. 6 million died because of the transgressions of Germany.

Isaiah 53:

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

He? Is Israel a he?

Someone else showed you where Israel was called a he in multiple places, so I feel no need to rehash.

 

[danny ski]

How many Jews were and are going to be surprised that he has already came?

Not many.

 

[Peacefulways]

To put it plainly, yes if God gives you a command you don't follow it then it is a sin.

 

[fatboys]

To put it plainly, yes if God gives you a command you don't follow it then it is a sin.

So what do you call disobedience to Gods laws that you knew nothing about or at least didn't understand the law

 

[Anguspure]

So what do you call disobedience to Gods laws that you knew nothing about or at least didn't understand the law

Knowledge of good and evil only happens when we eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. The other option is eating from the tree of life, then you don't have to worry about what is good and evil.
When will we ever learn? Worrying about what is and is not sin is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, concern with this stuff alienates us from the tree of life, that is Christ.
So it would appear that Adam did not sin until he worried his silly head and became concerned with exactly the question you are asking, the answer would have been to continue eating from the tree of life and remain in ignorance about good and evil.

 

[Peacefulways]

So what do you call disobedience to Gods laws that you knew nothing about or at least didn't understand the law

Lack of knowledge... Seek and you will find ask and you shall receive. That is what I told my friend early today. If I am truly about God, through Christ He will reveal to me what I need to know.

 

[smaneck]

Please start another thread!

It is up to whoever starts a thread (in this case Fatboy) to decide when it is getting too far off course.

 

[smaneck]

How many Jews were and are going to be surprised that he has already came?

Israel?

 

[Niblo]

Hello. In general, the works considered for inclusion in the NT canon were those written by 1st-century apostles (Matthew, John, Paul, etc.) or their traveling companions (Mark, Luke, etc.).

Gnostic works were rejected because their claimed authorships weren't believed. That unbelief has been borne out: even today, Gnostic works are generally dated to the 2nd century, with NT works dated to the 1st.

Thank you for your help. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

Have a great day.

 

[uksimon]

There is no tragedy. It seems the church is full of contradictions that make no sense. The church freely embraces the notion of resurrection and life after death, yet death is a tragedy.

Pain of personal loss, empathy perhaps. As for these notions of mistakes, none make sense. The chaos in this world is what provides contrast. Without dark you don't see the beauty of light.

Difficulty and suffering are opportunity. Chance to shape us, a chance for small acts of kindness, understanding. To remind us what should be cherished. Our natures remain yet in the end all that is physical or material is gone and meaningless.

When you take away time, stand outside the loop, all things are permanent, every moment forever frozen, a tapestry of all possibilities. Every act of courage, of compassion forever framed in its moment. Adversity provided each and every one. Without the perception of loss, love, empathy or pain none would hold value. That is real beauty. It is also the purpose of the veil. Should it be gone, memory remains but the world changed.

Without that drop of chaos there was only a white empty canvas. There was no error. All possibilities played out.

 

[Claire Evans]

It is up to whoever starts a thread (in this case Fatboy) to decide when it is getting too far off course.

Okay, as long as it hasn't got anything to do with the staff.

 

[Claire Evans]

The servant is named right in the text. Several times. His name is Israel. When was Israel rejected and despised by men? You must know no history at all to even ask such question. When was Jesus rejected and despised by men? He's universally accepted by the Christian world and beyond, is he not? If he came back as a messiah, would a couple billion of Christians be really surprised? Anyway. Israel is addressed in singular all the time. Hosea 11 1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son". Exodus 4 22 "Then say to the Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my first born son(...)"

You do know that Jesus was crucified? The Jews demanded His death because of His blasphemy and being a threat to the Pharisees. I am not talking about today. Sad thing is, a lot of people call themselves Christian but don't love Jesus at all.
Throughout Jesus' ministry, He was rejected and despised by many.

I accept your explanation the scripture of Israel being God's first born son.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

You do know that Jesus was crucified? The Jews demanded His death because of His blasphemy and being a threat to the Pharisees.

The Pharisees were virtually powerless at the time of Jesus's crucifixion. Their terse relationship with early Christianity only became an issue more than half a century later.

 

[danny ski]

You do know that Jesus was crucified? The Jews demanded His death because of His blasphemy and being a threat to the Pharisees. I am not talking about today. Sad thing is, a lot of people call themselves Christian but don't love Jesus at all.
Throughout Jesus' ministry, He was rejected and despised by many.

I accept your explanation the scripture of Israel being God's first born son.

Literally tens of thousands Jews were crucified by the Romans in 1CE-2CE in Judea

 

[LoAmmi]

Literally tens of thousands Jews were crucified by the Romans in 1CE-2CE in Judea

Truly "Jew crucified" wouldn't even have made the newspaper much less be major news.

 

[Peacefulways]

You do know that Jesus was crucified? The Jews demanded His death because of His blasphemy and being a threat to the Pharisees. I am not talking about today. Sad thing is, a lot of people call themselves Christian but don't love Jesus at all.
Throughout Jesus' ministry, He was rejected and despised by many.

I accept your explanation the scripture of Israel being God's first born son.

Of course you know that Israel is a nation not just one person. When God talking about Israel He is talking about them as a whole, Israel is the first nation He chose to work with, to show His power through them so that the whole world may fear Him. Abraham is the father of faith, Issac the son of Abraham, and Jacob surname Israel. Jacob fought for that name so that the angel of God will bless him because of his sin. Hosea 11 1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son". This passage refer to the cry that God heard His people in Egypt while they was being totally oppress. When God told Abraham to leave out of the land of Ur and promise that he will be put place in a land that flowing with milk and honey, He remember that. He remember us while we were yet sinning each and everyday. His thought never left us for one second, when we turn our back to Him then He being just says go ahead then you got. That's when we fall. There are some things in the bible I don't quiet understand yet, I will put it like this, Jesus is the Son of God, Abraham which is the father of Issac, the father of Jacob surname Israel is the first Sons of Faith. There only one God, One Son, and One Spirit, all is within each as we suppose to be within Christ. Oh yeah just a notion that I want to throw out there, which can start a thread Do you know what the Bible really referring to from the latter part of Genesis to the book of Revelation? Oh yeah I am not a seeker of faith I stop seeking now I know. A child of God is what I want to be.