Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[Archaeopteryx]

That might be relevant if that's what I did, but it wasn't.
1. I simply explained that God did not begin to exist.
2. P2 simply says that everything that begins to exist has a cause for it's existence.

Those two statements alone do not argue for God's existence. S2 lays down a foundational premise and s1 simply shows that God is not in that group discussed in s2.

If God is the only being allowed in the category of things Not Beginning to Exist, then the argument begs the question.

 

[nonbeliever314]

But I believe it can be shown that the KCA is more plausibly true than not, and that is the position of Craig. So far, the best objection I've heard on this thread is "We don't know". Not only has no one succeeded in showing that Vilenkin currently believes in an eternal universe (he used to, but not now), but no one has even addressed the rest of the support for p2:
1. The philosophical arguments against infinite regress.
2. The 2nd law of thermodynamics suggests that if time was infinite, then the universe surely would have fully expended all of it's usable energy by now.
3. Einstein's Theory of General Relativity suggests a beginning of the universe. He originally tried to create a "fudge factor" to avoid that conclusion but later had to retract it and called it the biggest blunder of his life.
4. The discovery of the red-shift suggest the expansion of the universe and implies a beginning.
5. The discovery of the background radiation also matched the level of what was predicted by earlier theories.

Yes, and I replied that the BGV theorem suggests that even multi-verses had a beginning.

So again, I believe there is good evidence and argument to show that p2 is more plausibly true than not.

I'm a "scientific thinker" also. I took several physics courses (up to and including General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics) and read numerous books on the subject. But I don't think that proves anything anyway. There are also numerous scientists who believe that the universe had a definite beginning, most notably Stephen Hawking. He developed a theory that avoided a singularity by inserting what he called "imaginary time". He explained that doing this allowed him to perform certain complicated calculations. But he admits that Imaginary time is just that...imaginary. It's just a mathematical contrivance.

"Only if we could picture the universe in terms of imaginary time would there be no singularities...When one goes back to the real time in which we live, however, there will still appear to be singularities." Hawking in Brief History of Time page 138-139.

The reason I cannot agree that there is a possibility that God does not exist is because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit. I know that means nothing to you. That's a different subject though, and I'd rather stay on the KCA in this thread.

Where should we start? Howabout with the issue you have with infinity? That'll be fun. I'll write up something and upload a pic, and you do the same. I'll show mathematically WLC's infinity arguments are wrong, IN PEN. And you can write up (mathematically) why you're right. If one of the bricks that holds KCA up for you is the infinity issue, might as well attempt to knock a brick out.

 

[AllanV]

Sounds like an argument from consequence.

Sorry but you will have to expand that a bit.

 

[AllanV]

But that is not an argument for the existence of your god; I am not concerned of the promises your particular religion makes, if the veracity message cannot be established.

I have tended to keep away from religions because in my case any experience of God has had nothing to do with any of them. Religions tend to attract all types and they put their stamp on what is going to be believed.
I have a mechanical engineering background and work with electronics as well. I am more practical than most and am able to repair or make everything that is owned and have been mostly self employed or contracting. Generally my mind is set on seeing is believing and follow evidence in my work but an experience of God reveals information that has never been learned or never would be in several life times of activity.

I concede that knowing God is difficult from the natural biological perspective and this is stated in the first few pages of the Holy Bible. There is something in place to hide the potential of immortality and the mind that can see this. There is something in the mind that actively opposes any other belief than the self belief learned and developed from life experience based on what first appears to occur through the natural senses.

After a spontaneous un-searched for experience of God during a good time, a quiet time at 26 years old there was a need to explore the world I lived in with a different perspective.

The idea that we move and have our being in God and that everything seen is made to appear at every instant isn't such a difficult thought about this reality. This would mean every measurement made with any instrument is of the covering that God wears continuously. The expanded atom and the space between galaxies and planets shows all that is seen as a small percentage and what is seen is mostly space as well. Evidently by calculation the world's population could be squeezed to the size of one and a half sugar cubes. The space in volume every object takes up, including a human body, God takes up as well. Everyone is powered up by God but the human mind uses this through own self to get what it wants but this brings own demise, mutation, degeneration and final death.

The natural mind is already hard wired not to see or know God.
In the study of human behavior it can be seen that most individuals have the ability to get into another persons mind in an attempt to influence them. Sometimes this is subtle and other times it is blatant.
The prophet Samuel said that rebelliousness is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness as the sin of idolatry.
All humans are regarded in scriptures as having a rebellious nature and this is passed on and learned beginning as a baby. Every one develops skills to manipulate to get what they want. This is also revealed in a personality that desires to be perceived and seen by others the way it is, being weak or strong, pathetic or interesting, intelligent or dumb. Everyone is maneuvered into the person they become. What needs to be understood though, is the mind able to be hijacked to a point where the brain will produce the responses in the body that will be felt. Is a person fully in control of themselves or are there strong influences sometimes getting passed learned defensive strategies that can upset emotional equilibrium. Witchcraft is an ability to get into the subconscious and it is not generally believed to be real. But in reality people affect each other all the time and this is what some humans are really good at. We have politicians, salesman, dictators and movie actors who have different methods of masking and being rather spare with the truth and sway people into responses.

Everyone is locked into a bonding in the subconscious continuously by familiarity of emotional response. The better the ability in this realm of the mind a person is, the less likely God will be Known because it is difficult to let go a strong mental attack and defense because some vulnerability will be realized.
Knowing God is in a nature that is perhaps a hundred times more gentle than that which a human can find without some supernatural help. There is a way, a method of killing off putting to death, crucifying all the inner discrepancies and it is explained in scriptures. In my "investigations" I am able to say no one seems to be completely taking up the challenge. Some dedication and discipline is required and in my case it is difficult to give up my own life with all its perks and freedom it offers. A western culture is too comfortable.

Knowing if God exists isn't about measuring something it is more about experience. A person who Knows God has another nature revealed that is the same one that Jesus has because this is acceptable to God and will lead to immortality.
The outward appearance is that the subconscious of others will not be under attack if those persons are sensitive enough to realize it.

 

[Joshua260]

You didn't explain that God did not begin to exist, you asserted it.

You and the others seem to be confused on this issue. Let's revisit the basic KCA.

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause for it's existence.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause for it's existence.

Nowhere does the basic KCA say or imply that God did not "begin to exist", so the argument is not begging the question as some assert.

To refresh our memories, you asked me why doesn't God belong in the group of "everything that begins to exist" and I was answering you from what the bible says about God and not the KCA! The bible describes God as a being who never "began to exist".

So now back to the KCA: If the conclusion is true, then we can extrapolate some characteristic traits of the cause of the universe. Since p2 says that the space-time universe began to exist, then time itself began to exist. Since it is incoherent that something inside the universe could have created the universe itself, then it stands to reason that the cause of the universe was not part of the universe. Therefore, there is a state of affairs in which the cause existed a-temporally. In other words, there is no time in which the cause of the universe did not exist. Therefore, the cause of the universe never "began to exist". Notice that I didn't say "God", but rather said, "the cause of the universe". But it so happens that this characteristic trait of the cause of the universe matches one of the characteristic traits of the Abrahamic God.

 

[Joshua260]

It may be perceived by some as hypocritical to cherry pick an untestable hypothesis from modern cosmology just to support one line of an argument while discarding the rest of the science as incompatible with your religious beliefs.

These astrophysicists that are cited in this thread, whose statements you feel do not undercut this "beginning" that you require for your KCA, do you concur with their other scientific conclusions about the nature of the cosmos, such as this "beginning" (if it were such) having happened about 13.7 billion years ago, with our solar system forming about 4.5 billions years ago?

What they believe about other issues is really irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[nonbeliever314]

I already answered this. The Christian God did not "begin to exist". He is the "I am".

Here's where you didn't explain anything.

 

[Joshua260]

Where should we start? Howabout with the issue you have with infinity? That'll be fun. I'll write up something and upload a pic, and you do the same. I'll show mathematically WLC's infinity arguments are wrong, IN PEN. And you can write up (mathematically) why you're right. If one of the bricks that holds KCA up for you is the infinity issue, might as well attempt to knock a brick out.

Actual infinities are commonly used in mathematics, but the question is whether or not actual infinities really exist in real life. Take for example what I told you about how Hawking used imaginary time to avoid a singularity in his unbounded universe model. He was using imaginary time as a mathematical contrivance, but admitted that once we add back in real time, the singularity reappears. He admitted that there is absolutely no evidence that his imaginary time actually exists. The same goes for any mathematical model you might contrive concerning actual infinites. So the discussion regarding actual infinities is going to have to remain in the realm of philosophy.

 

[Joshua260]

Here's where you didn't explain anything.

I didn't have to. You asked me about the nature of God and that meant that I was going to reply from a biblical point of view. If you had asked me about the "cause of the universe", then I would have gotten into the explanation from the KCA point of view. Ironically, you're the one making logical leaps, not me.

 

[nonbeliever314]

1. The philosophical arguments against infinite regress.

Explain please.

 

[nonbeliever314]

Actual infinities are commonly used in mathematics, but the question is whether or not actual infinities really exist in real life. Take for example what I told you about how Hawking used imaginary time to avoid a singularity in his unbounded universe model. He was using imaginary time as a mathematical contrivance, but admitted that once we add back in real time, the singularity reappears. He admitted that there is absolutely no evidence that his imaginary time actually exists. The same goes for any mathematical model you might contrive concerning actual infinites. So the discussion regarding actual infinities is going to have to remain in the realm of philosophy.

So instead of using words, lets start using math. You know QM and GR. Let's start debating that way. This back and forth stuff isn't cutting it anymore. Explain to me mathematically the KCA. You use physics to back it up already, so expressing it mathematically shouldn't be a problem for you.

 

[Joshua260]

So instead of using words, lets start using math. You know QM and GR. Let's start debating that way. This back and forth stuff isn't cutting it anymore. Explain to me mathematically the KCA. You use physics to back it up already, so expressing it mathematically shouldn't be a problem for you.

It is naïve to think that all truth can be known only through math or science. The KCA is a philosophical argument and we will have to deal with it on those terms.

BTW, I just happened across this little gem:

It's a youtube video of Alexander Vilenkin giving a presentation. Here's the description:
"Physicist and cosmologist Dr. Alexander Vilenkin refutes some scientific models (like Eternal Inflation, Cyclic Evolution, and Static Seed (Emergent Universe)) that supposedly argue for a universe without a beginning. He then offers his own explanation (via the Borde Guth Vilenkin Theorem) why the universe did have a beginning."

Spolier alert!! Not only does he show that Carroll's model did have a beginning, but he concluded the talk with the following statement in his powerpoint:
"Did the universe have a beginning? Probably yes."

 

[TillICollapse]

I have tended to keep away from religions because in my case any experience of God has had nothing to do with any of them. Religions tend to attract all types and they put their stamp on what is going to be believed.
I have a mechanical engineering background and work with electronics as well. I am more practical than most and am able to repair or make everything that is owned and have been mostly self employed or contracting. Generally my mind is set on seeing is believing and follow evidence in my work but an experience of God reveals information that has never been learned or never would be in several life times of activity.

I concede that knowing God is difficult from the natural biological perspective and this is stated in the first few pages of the Holy Bible. There is something in place to hide the potential of immortality and the mind that can see this. There is something in the mind that actively opposes any other belief than the self belief learned and developed from life experience based on what first appears to occur through the natural senses.

After a spontaneous un-searched for experience of God during a good time, a quiet time at 26 years old there was a need to explore the world I lived in with a different perspective.

The idea that we move and have our being in God and that everything seen is made to appear at every instant isn't such a difficult thought about this reality. This would mean every measurement made with any instrument is of the covering that God wears continuously. The expanded atom and the space between galaxies and planets shows all that is seen as a small percentage and what is seen is mostly space as well. Evidently by calculation the world's population could be squeezed to the size of one and a half sugar cubes. The space in volume every object takes up, including a human body, God takes up as well. Everyone is powered up by God but the human mind uses this through own self to get what it wants but this brings own demise, mutation, degeneration and final death.

The natural mind is already hard wired not to see or know God.
In the study of human behavior it can be seen that most individuals have the ability to get into another persons mind in an attempt to influence them. Sometimes this is subtle and other times it is blatant.
The prophet Samuel said that rebelliousness is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness as the sin of idolatry.
All humans are regarded in scriptures as having a rebellious nature and this is passed on and learned beginning as a baby. Every one develops skills to manipulate to get what they want. This is also revealed in a personality that desires to be perceived and seen by others the way it is, being weak or strong, pathetic or interesting, intelligent or dumb. Everyone is maneuvered into the person they become. What needs to be understood though, is the mind able to be hijacked to a point where the brain will produce the responses in the body that will be felt. Is a person fully in control of themselves or are there strong influences sometimes getting passed learned defensive strategies that can upset emotional equilibrium. Witchcraft is an ability to get into the subconscious and it is not generally believed to be real. But in reality people affect each other all the time and this is what some humans are really good at. We have politicians, salesman, dictators and movie actors who have different methods of masking and being rather spare with the truth and sway people into responses.

Everyone is locked into a bonding in the subconscious continuously by familiarity of emotional response. The better the ability in this realm of the mind a person is, the less likely God will be Known because it is difficult to let go a strong mental attack and defense because some vulnerability will be realized.
Knowing God is in a nature that is perhaps a hundred times more gentle than that which a human can find without some supernatural help. There is a way, a method of killing off putting to death, crucifying all the inner discrepancies and it is explained in scriptures. In my "investigations" I am able to say no one seems to be completely taking up the challenge. Some dedication and discipline is required and in my case it is difficult to give up my own life with all its perks and freedom it offers. A western culture is too comfortable.

Knowing if God exists isn't about measuring something it is more about experience. A person who Knows God has another nature revealed that is the same one that Jesus has because this is acceptable to God and will lead to immortality.
The outward appearance is that the subconscious of others will not be under attack if those persons are sensitive enough to realize it.

What is it that you've seen which caused you to believe what you saw or experienced to be God ?

 

[Joshua260]

Joshua260 said: ↑
1. The philosophical arguments against infinite regress.

Explain please.

There are a few arguments that show that even though actual infinites can be used in math, they make no sense when applied to reality.

A simple point is that actual infinities are sets of numbers to which no increment can be added since, by their nature of infiniteness, the set includes all numbers...so there is nothing to add! The fact that we will have tomorrow and thus add a day to the set of days that have already existed demonstrates that the number of days is not an actual infinity. Therefore, time had a beginning.

 

[nonbeliever314]

It is naïve to think that all truth can be known only through math or science. The KCA is a philosophical argument and we will have to deal with it on those terms.

BTW, I just happened across this little gem:

It's a youtube video of Alexander Vilenkin giving a presentation. Here's the description:
"Physicist and cosmologist Dr. Alexander Vilenkin refutes some scientific models (like Eternal Inflation, Cyclic Evolution, and Static Seed (Emergent Universe)) that supposedly argue for a universe without a beginning. He then offers his own explanation (via the Borde Guth Vilenkin Theorem) why the universe did have a beginning."

Spolier alert!! Not only does he show that Carroll's model did have a beginning, but he concluded the talk with the following statement in his powerpoint:
"Did the universe have a beginning? Probably yes."

Did you forget to mention what he also said? Quantum nucleation.

 

[nonbeliever314]

Joshua260 said: ↑
1. The philosophical arguments against infinite regress.


There are a few arguments that show that even though actual infinites can be used in math, they make no sense when applied to reality.

A simple point is that actual infinities are sets of numbers to which no increment can be added since, by their nature of infiniteness, the set includes all numbers...so there is nothing to add! The fact that we will have tomorrow and thus add a day to the set of days that have already existed demonstrates that the number of days is not an actual infinity. Therefore, time had a beginning.

And so since time in our universe is finite, are you saying that just throws actual infinities out the window altogether?

 

[nonbeliever314]

It is naïve to think that all truth can be known only through math or science. The KCA is a philosophical argument and we will have to deal with it on those terms.

Then why are you using scientific theories and discoveries to back it up?

 

[Davian]

I have tended to keep away from religions because in my case any experience of God has had nothing to do with any of them. Religions tend to attract all types and they put their stamp on what is going to be believed.

Is that not what you are doing here in this forum?

I have a mechanical engineering background and work with electronics as well. I am more practical than most and am able to repair or make everything that is owned and have been mostly self employed or contracting. Generally my mind is set on seeing is believing and follow evidence in my work but an experience of God reveals information that has never been learned or never would be in several life times of activity.

Anything that could not be the product of your own imagination? A cure for cancer, perhaps? A unified theory of gravity? No?

I concede that knowing God is difficult from the natural biological perspective and this is stated in the first few pages of the Holy Bible.

The Bible was written and edited that men trying to sell religion. Do not cite it as evidence, particularly for its own claims.

There is something in place to hide the potential of immortality and the mind that can see this. There is something in the mind that actively opposes any other belief than the self belief learned and developed from life experience based on what first appears to occur through the natural senses.

How do you know this?

After a spontaneous un-searched for experience of God during a good time, a quiet time at 26 years old there was a need to explore the world I lived in with a different perspective.

The idea that we move and have our being in God and that everything seen is made to appear at every instant isn't such a difficult thought about this reality.

I do not know what you mean by "God".

This would mean every measurement made with any instrument is of the covering that God wears continuously. The expanded atom and the space between galaxies and planets shows all that is seen as a small percentage and what is seen is mostly space as well. Evidently by calculation the world's population could be squeezed to the size of one and a half sugar cubes. The space in volume every object takes up, including a human body, God takes up as well. Everyone is powered up by God but the human mind uses this through own self to get what it wants but this brings own demise, mutation, degeneration and final death.

Are you just making this up as you go along?

The natural mind is already hard wired not to see or know God.

How do you know this?

In the study of human behavior it can be seen that most individuals have the ability to get into another persons mind in an attempt to influence them. Sometimes this is subtle and other times it is blatant.

Do you have any science to substantiate this?

The prophet Samuel said that rebelliousness is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness as the sin of idolatry.
All humans are regarded in scriptures as having a rebellious nature and this is passed on and learned beginning as a baby. Every one develops skills to manipulate to get what they want. This is also revealed in a personality that desires to be perceived and seen by others the way it is, being weak or strong, pathetic or interesting, intelligent or dumb. Everyone is maneuvered into the person they become. What needs to be understood though, is the mind able to be hijacked to a point where the brain will produce the responses in the body that will be felt. Is a person fully in control of themselves or are there strong influences sometimes getting passed learned defensive strategies that can upset emotional equilibrium. Witchcraft is an ability to get into the subconscious and it is not generally believed to be real. But in reality people affect each other all the time and this is what some humans are really good at. We have politicians, salesman, dictators and movie actors who have different methods of masking and being rather spare with the truth and sway people into responses.

Everyone is locked into a bonding in the subconscious continuously by familiarity of emotional response. The better the ability in this realm of the mind a person is, the less likely God will be Known because it is difficult to let go a strong mental attack and defense because some vulnerability will be realized.
Knowing God is in a nature that is perhaps a hundred times more gentle than that which a human can find without some supernatural help. There is a way, a method of killing off putting to death, crucifying all the inner discrepancies and it is explained in scriptures. In my "investigations" I am able to say no one seems to be completely taking up the challenge. Some dedication and discipline is required and in my case it is difficult to give up my own life with all its perks and freedom it offers. A western culture is too comfortable.

Knowing if God exists isn't about measuring something it is more about experience. A person who Knows God has another nature revealed that is the same one that Jesus has because this is acceptable to God and will lead to immortality.
The outward appearance is that the subconscious of others will not be under attack if those persons are sensitive enough to realize it.

I have no idea of what you are going on about. How is this an argument for (or against?) God's existence?

 

[AllanV]

What is it that you've seen which caused you to believe what you saw or experienced to be God ?

It was after 2-3 years of living on a rural property with my wife and first baby son. A simple quiet life style without too many distractions. There was no electricity or telephone.
A dream was remembered and reflected on as I worked at a project and then progressively and powerfully an energy drew me out of my self and it was as though another mind was shown to my mind and it was the mind of an immortal. In 5 seconds all the stored information of that mind was apparent and many complete ideas were shown. I couldn't breath and partially collapsed. I was not frightened but was a bit stunned, recovered and then walked approximately 200 meters to the cottage where we lived. I had never realized there is a God and how close and intimate He is to everything. God is like an observer just a little deeper and beyond the mind that is usually thought from and He fills the same space as me and in fact every object.

Many concepts or ideas were apparent and it was as though thoughts were coming from someones perfect mind. The difference between my mind was seen as a comparison and how mine did not measure up. A few years were spent enjoying whole concepts coming into my thoughts but eventually serious work needed to be done and the communication faded.
It is all difficult to rationalize and care was taken to keep these things to my self when around certain people because the information received was a bit ahead of its time.
I got involved and explored different technologies and attempted to build some devices. With the internet there are now people putting up videos of what they believe and have been working on and many of them have some truth when the experience is considered.
Those things that take my interest are how the earth operates and it is much like a space craft and time machine but the human is trapped because of the biology and mind that only sees and brings death and degeneration.
The Eternal God is before everything seen exists and His power comes through a pattern of what is seen and that regulates the power that enters. The pattern is easily calculated and if replicated with rotating fields of energy the rate can be changed. There is a spiral prescribed that determines a gradient that has slip. Everything is instantly manifested and gravity occurs and if the primary fields are distorted thrust will occur because the dimensional aspect of creation would mean that the mass is out of alignment with its field.
Humans do not have the ability to use the ultimate technology because all our learning is from a biological perspective. Humans have predatory mental instincts that are applied toward each other as they attempt to penetrate the subconscious.
The Bible is a serious book and if believed helps to condition and reassure the mind that has been changed.

 

[nonbeliever314]

New thread. Scientific evidence FOR or AGAINST the existence of god.