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Logic and faith

Colter

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Some people argue you need faith in logic. It's said to be a primary assumption, you cant use logic to justify logic, that would be circular reasoning.

What about a computer, does that need faith in logic to operate? Also, "faith" what is it precisely? Is it said to be belief without evidence.

I think that the "faith-based" outlook may be flawed. Our subconsicous and unconscious mind are like computers running logical operations all the time. The very phenomenon of assuming an attitude of faith - or thinking "this is an axiom" etc implies a lot of pretty sophisticated presumptions - know them consciously or not.

So the claim of logic-faith is probably a falacy. Its like saying "I cant see my heath beating, therefore it doesnt exist".

Or "I need faith in this sentence, for it to actually be a sentence..."

Rather: the word "faith", "truth" and "sentence" must have meaning, for the claim 'the sentence "logic requires faith" ' to be true, or even considered rationally. Therefore theres a minimum of logic required for the faith-claim to be made in the first place.

The faith claim is like saying "this is not a sentence" or "I am not communicating" etc. Ok you can claim that, but you cant escape the heat-beat of truth.

The rest is not clever philosophy, its self deception.

In the Cartesian theatre, dont play the fool.

Thoughts?

I like this quote from the UB as it harmonizes the approach of faith and logic to reality:

"The union of the scientific attitude and the religious insight by the mediation of experiential philosophy is part of man's long Paradise-ascension experience. The approximations of mathematics and the certainties of insight will always require the harmonizing function of mind logic on all levels of experience short of the maximum attainment of the Supreme.

But logic can never succeed in harmonizing the findings of science and the insights of religion unless both the scientific and the religious aspects of a personality are truth dominated, sincerely desirous of following the truth wherever it may lead regardless of the conclusions which it may reach.

Logic is the technique of philosophy, its method of expression. Within the domain of true science, reason is always amenable to genuine logic; within the domain of true religion, faith is always logical from the basis of an inner viewpoint, even though such faith may appear to be quite unfounded from the inlooking viewpoint of the scientific approach. From outward, looking within, the universe may appear to be material; from within, looking out, the same universe appears to be wholly spiritual. Reason grows out of material awareness, faith out of spiritual awareness, but through the mediation of a philosophy strengthened by revelation, logic may confirm both the inward and the outward view, thereby effecting the stabilization of both science and religion. Thus, through common contact with the logic of philosophy, may both science and religion become increasingly tolerant of each other, less and less skeptical.

What both developing science and religion need is more searching and fearless self-criticism, a greater awareness of incompleteness in evolutionary status. The teachers of both science and religion are often altogether too self-confident and dogmatic. Science and religion can only be self-critical of their facts. The moment departure is made from the stage of facts, reason abdicates or else rapidly degenerates into a consort of false logic." UB 1955
 
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Colter

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The Bible defines faith as “confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1). In other words, it is being confident in things we hope to be true but cannot verify through our senses. It is affirming such things, though they cannot be deduced by reason. It is assigning a proposition more confidence than reason warrants. Faith is, in fact, the opposite of reason. They are mutually exclusive concepts, with no common ground. According to Paul, faith is belief without, or in spite of, reason.

A couple of examples are in order. Assume I decide to conquer my fear of heights and go skydiving with a skydiving school. Before boarding the plane, I am required to take a class. There, I learn of all the precautions taken to insure the safety of the skydivers. I learn of their fifty year history in which no one has ever been injured. I learn of the extensive knowledge and expertise of their employees, including the people that will be packing my parachute and that will be by my side on the jump. If I decide to go through with my plan and jump from the plane, it would be a matter of trust rather than faith. I have acquired evidence that I am likely to land safely and used reason to come to a justified conclusion based upon that evidence.

But assume instead that I learn this is the first day the skydiving school has been in business. No one there has ever skydived before. None has even packed a parachute. They are, however, extremely enthusiastic and charismatic. I like them and am inspired by their enthusiasm. If I choose to go through with my plan under these circumstances, it could only be described as an act of faith. I have no good evidence or reasons to believe I will reach the ground safely, so my decision cannot be grounded in such things. It can only be understood as an emotional response – as an act of faith.

the evidentialist puts no stock in faith. He requires evidence before committing to a position, and this evidence must, if possible, be obtained from reliable sources. He then draws conclusions from this evidence, through a chain of inferences based upon the rules of logic and reason. The confidence he places in these conclusions is in direct proportion to the quality and quantity of the evidence. It is this paradigm that provides the foundation for the American legal system and the scientific community. The scientific method is really just a specialized application of evidentialism to the natural world.

Everyone uses an evidence-based paradigm in the course of their daily life, even devout Christians. We all trust our senses and our reasonable inferences from those senses. Likewise, we evaluate the reliability of information obtained from other sources and trust that information if it passes our internal “bull detector.” Rarely if ever do we base everyday decisions on things we merely hope to be true but run contrary to the available evidence. We do not, for instance, set off into a driving rainstorm in our best attire having “faith” the rain will stop once we step out the door.

For most Christians, however, their religion is different. In religious matters alone, they feel free to set aside evidentialism. They allow themselves to believe things for which there is no good evidence and for which no reasonable inferences can be drawn. Why is this? Psychology suggests it is because they are wedded to the beliefs of Christianity for purely emotional reasons, and recognize such beliefs simply cannot be supported by reason. These beliefs are typically learned, and incorporated into one’s identity, in childhood before one develops critical thinking skills. Accordingly, Christians must appeal to an alternate means of establishing knowledge, and that is faith.

Faith and reason are, therefore, inherently at odds within Christian theology. This conflict can be seen in the writings of Martin Luther, who called reason “the devil’s bride,” a “beautiful harlot,” and “God’s worst enemy.” According to Luther, “Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding,” replacing any deductions obtained through reason with the “Word of God.” Tertullian embraced the irrationality he deemed essential to Christianity, stating that Jesus’ death and resurrection must be believed precisely because it was absurd and impossible.
Tertullian found reason irrelevant to belief, claiming that in light of the truth revealed by the Gospels, there was no further “need of research.” Many of today’s apologists likewise see reason and evidence as immaterial to Christian belief, as demonstrated by William Lane Craig’s “internal witness to the Holy Spirit,” or Alvin Plantinga’s “sensus divinitatus” and view of Christian belief as properly basic.

For faith to be valid, however, it is not enough that reason be inadequate. It is not enough to simply point out that reason has limits and cannot adequately explain everything. Faith must add value. It must reliably increase our understanding of the world above and beyond what reason can accomplish, providing explanations that are demonstrably better. And it must do so in a way that is objectively verifiable. We must be able to show that, at least in some circumstances, faith paints a more accurate picture than reason ever could. The role of reason is to allow us to reliably distinguish truth from falsity. Unless the Christian can demonstrate that faith can do the same, faith cannot serve as a basis for knowledge.

Religions are virtually all anti-empiricist, because they hold the real nature of the universe is hidden from us. While it might have made sense to look for alternatives to an empiricist worldview when these religions emerged, it makes sense no longer, as we can now explain just about everything in the universe empirically or at least reasonably believe that they can be explained empirically as our scientific knowledge improves. That is the message of science. Faith can never provide an adequate alternative since faith can be used to justify almost anything. If a given process yields thousands of mutually exclusive answers to the same question, that process must be fatally flawed.

"The materialistic sociologist of today surveys a community, makes a report thereon, and leaves the people as he found them. Nineteen hundred years ago, unlearned Galileans surveyed Jesus giving his life as a spiritual contribution to man’s inner experience and then went out and turned the whole Roman Empire upside down." Ub 1955

In the skydiving example you omitted the fact that a person may still have the fear until he actually experience's it, then it becomes the thrill of adventure. Child like trust in God is like that, it's not a mere theory of belief, we experience God by trusting him. Finding the goodness of God we abandon all else in search of more of him.
 
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True Scotsman

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Those people would be wrong. They would also be showing that they don't know what logic is. Logic rests on an axiomatic truth, the law of identity. A is A. A cannot be A and not A at the same time and in the same respect. Logic also rests on the primacy of existence, that things are what they are independent of anyone's conscious activity.

Great. Now prove it.

If A is not A, how could I prove anything? If contradictions could exist, how could logic work? How could we identify non-contradictory facts? If there is no mind-independent reality what would be the need to prove anything? Do you see how an axiom must be true in order to prove anything or even to deny its truth?

It does not need to be validated, because any argument against it would be instantly self refuting since it would employ the very process being denied validity.

That's a massive shifting of the burden of proof.

What burden of proof? How could you prove that logic is invalid without using logic. You are not getting that these concepts are axiomatic. Go ahead and try to prove that logic is invalid as a means to knowledge without using it. I'd like to see that. There is no burden to prove something that is a corollary of axioms. It's nonsensical to try.

Great. Now prove it.
Look, you should look up the problem of hard solipsism, because as much as all of this is so much philosophical time-wasting, it is a real issue in philosophy.

Only for those who deny the self evident.

The logical absolutes have not and most likely cannot be demonstrated to be true.

Since they are a precondition of judging anything to be true, this is not necessary.

We cannot prove we are not in the matrix, or brains in vats, or any number of similar scenarios. We cannot demonstrate that anything beyond our own most basic existence is real.

There is no obligation to disprove a claim for which there is no evidence. You should know this.

The logical absolutes are typically taken axiomatically, but that essentially means that they are taken without justification. It's important to keep this in mind when talking about this branch of philosophy.
To the extent that they need to be justified, they are perfectly justified by the axioms and the primacy of existence. You should learn them and keep them in mind when you attack logic.
 
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lumberjohn

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Try to justify any of these three sentences.

When a little girl is told by her father that it is dangerous to play in the forest, she believes that it is dangerous. She doesn't know why, she doesn't have sight of the danger, but she does have faith. This faith is not the opposite of reason, it is reasonable. It goes hand in hand with acknowledging her father's superior knowledge and submitting to his will. To fail in this acknowledgement would be unreasonable and would lead to harm in the forest.

I believe I did justify them in my previous post, but I will elaborate. My characterization of faith as exclusive of and at odds with reason is not original to me or any atheistic philosopher. This was a position espoused implicitly by Paul and explicitly by many Christian philosophers and theologians, including but by no means limited to Luther and Tertullian. I did not mean to suggest that Christian theologians were unanimous in their disdain for reason, but there has clearly been a long lasting reluctance to claim that Christianity can be defended on the basis of reason and logic alone.

Christian apologists have consistently insisted on an escape hatch when reason and logic failed to support their arguments. Perhaps it is presuppositionalism, mandating that Christian belief be properly basic, insisting upon the authority of revelation available to us only through ancient unattested documents, or the authority of an intangible “holy spirit” that is available only through subjective experience. Christians have throughout history used the term “faith” to represent these sources of non-empirical knowledge. This warrants its use as shorthand to reference all of them, since they refer to essentially the same concept.

Many Christian theologians have been uncomfortable with jettisoning reason from the process altogether and so have attempted to redefine faith as something closer to evidence-based trust. Liberal theologians since the age of reason have dedicated themselves to making Christianity palatable to the critical mind, and so have retrofitted “faith” as something that bears little resemblance to how it was used for nineteen centuries. It is not necessary to quibble about the meaning of “faith,” however, to acknowledge the basic point – Christian apologetics has consistently incorporated a non-empirical approach as a key component of epistemology.

Your example illustrates the point quite well when applied to the context at issue. The little girl’s submission is based on evidence. Her entire life has presumably reflected a consistent direct experience of a physical and present father she has observed to care for her, protect her, and exhibit superior knowledge. We have a name for this which is entirely non-controversial: trust. Where good evidence warrants belief, that is trust, and trust is always reasonable.

Contrast this with belief in God. God is invisible and incorporeal. He is not directly observable and there is no objective evidence supporting even his existence, much less that he has humanity’s best interests at heart and should be trusted. Humans lack the very thing that made the little girl’s trust in her father reasonable – good intersubjectively verifiable evidence. If one chooses to submit to God as the child submitted to her father, it must be on a different basis altogether.

You yourself have expressed a view of faith that doesn’t rely on logic because it precedes logic. By claiming faith to be a valid premise of logic, you are arguing that Christian faith should be treated as properly basic. But how can you possibly justify this? Once you allow faith as a properly basic belief, all faiths become equally valid. There is absolutely no way to distinguish the true from the untrue, which is the defining characteristic of a fatally flawed approach.

So just for purposes of the remainder of this discussion, let’s use “faith” as a shorthand for a non-empirical basis for knowledge. By claiming that the “truths” of faith do not conflict with the “truths” of reason, the Christian begs the question at issue. Granted, if faith can arrive at knowledge, it cannot conflict with reason – but the crucial question is: Can faith arrive at knowledge in the first place? Is faith a valid epistemological procedure? Unless the Christian can demonstrate that faith is capable of distinguishing truth from falsity, he cannot uphold the compatibility of reason and faith.

By appealing to faith , the Christian wishes to claim the status of knowledge for beliefs that have not fulfilled the minimum requirements of knowledge. He wishes to consider an idea as having a referent in reality while rejecting the process by which man knows reality. Regardless of the particular manner in which the Christian characterizes his version of faith, he cannot escape its irrational bias. His only chance of escape, to claim that the articles of faith can also meet the requirements of reason, is a dead end, because it renders the concepts of faith inapplicable. Faith is possible only in the case of beliefs that cannot be rationally demonstrated.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I believe I did justify them in my previous post, but I will elaborate. My characterization of faith as exclusive of and at odds with reason is not original to me or any atheistic philosopher. This was a position espoused implicitly by Paul and explicitly by many Christian philosophers and theologians, including but by no means limited to Luther and Tertullian. I did not mean to suggest that Christian theologians were unanimous in their disdain for reason, but there has clearly been a long lasting reluctance to claim that Christianity can be defended on the basis of reason and logic alone.

Christian apologists have consistently insisted on an escape hatch when reason and logic failed to support their arguments. Perhaps it is presuppositionalism, mandating that Christian belief be properly basic, insisting upon the authority of revelation available to us only through ancient unattested documents, or the authority of an intangible “holy spirit” that is available only through subjective experience. Christians have throughout history used the term “faith” to represent these sources of non-empirical knowledge. This warrants its use as shorthand to reference all of them, since they refer to essentially the same concept.

Many Christian theologians have been uncomfortable with jettisoning reason from the process altogether and so have attempted to redefine faith as something closer to evidence-based trust. Liberal theologians since the age of reason have dedicated themselves to making Christianity palatable to the critical mind, and so have retrofitted “faith” as something that bears little resemblance to how it was used for nineteen centuries. It is not necessary to quibble about the meaning of “faith,” however, to acknowledge the basic point – Christian apologetics has consistently incorporated a non-empirical approach as a key component of epistemology
To illustrate this, one need only ask whether an individual would ever reconsider his or her theological commitments if the supposed reasons for those commitments were shown to be dubious or demonstrably wrong. Quite often, the answer is no. Some Christians claim that their faith is not based on arguments or evidence, but on the "inner witness of the Holy Spirit." The arguments and evidence are therefore superfluous to establishing and maintaining belief; little epistemic weight is assigned to them. This raises an important question: if one's theological commitments are not amenable to reason, then in what sense are they are reasonable? How does one reason with someone who will not reconsider their position?
 
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Ana the Ist

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That's just a vague affirmation, give me examples if you want me to answer them.

Many Hindus believe that since they can "remember" their past lives, that is evidence that Hinduism is correct.

To me of course, it's not really any different from your claim that thousands of christians live in communion with Christ. Im sure they think they do...just as those Hindus think they remember past lives.

So why is the christian communion with Christ "evidence" and Hindu memory not?
 
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lumberjohn

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For those who may feel I am erecting a strawman, just consider this passage from William Lane Craig, considered one of the most popular and well-respected Christian apologists of today:

"I think Martin Luther correctly distinguished between what he called the magisterial and ministerial uses of reason. The magisterial use of reason occurs when reason stands over and above the gospel like a magistrate and judges it on the basis of argument and evidence. The ministerial use of reason occurs when reason submits to and serves the gospel.... Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter."

In other words, Craig will only acknowledge the validity of reason if it can be shown to support Christianity. If the arguments for Christianity are shown to be illogical and unreasonable, Dr. Craig claims reason must be rejected in favor of blind faith. For Craig and other apologists like him, non-Christian hypotheses aren’t even “on the table” as options. Craig has acknowledged that he would continue to believe despite the weight of rational arguments undermining Christianity, and he believes others should as well.

Imagine you and I are playing a game, like Monopoly, with clearly defined rules. I explain that those rules will apply only so long as I remain ahead. If at any point you get ahead of me, I will declare the rules null and void. At that point, you are simply to accept that I have won. Would you find this fair? Would you believe we were competing on a level playing field? That is the advantage that apologists like Craig demand for Christianity.

I would submit that if apologists require such an advantage, they must recognize their position to be indefensible. They are requiring an exception to the rules that govern all other inquiry, a textbook example of special pleading. No one would demand such a thing unless they knew reason and logic were not on their side. The smarter apologists realize that while they can fool people with smoke and mirrors much of the time, they cannot demonstrate the reasonableness of Christianity against opponents adept at pointing out their deceptions. Accordingly, they must always allow themselves a “Get Out of Jail Free” card - the rejection of reason and appeal to blind faith. They must retain the ability to claim that if their arguments are shown to be unreasonable, belief is still warranted.
 
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zippy2006

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That's not the kind of 'faith' we are talking about. As I indicated earlier, 'faith' is sometimes used synonymously with 'confidence' or 'trust,' which may or may not be justified.

If it's based on evidence, then faith is unnecessary.

Are we talking about how faith is actually practised in religion or how you use the word? Because those are not necessarily the same.

Apparently the concept you attach to the word "faith" has nothing to do with what religious people, secular people, or dictionaries understand it to be. You can redefine "faith" and then argue against it, but that's called a strawman.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Apparently the concept you attach to the word "faith" has nothing to do with what religious people, secular people, or dictionaries understand it to be. You can redefine "faith" and then argue against it, but that's called a strawman.

Zippy, I can't find any definition of faith... apart from what yourself and others have posted on this forum...that includes some variation of "belief/trust based upon evidence/proof."

Here's what Webster has to say...

2

a (1) :belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) :belief in the traditionaldoctrines of a religionb (1) :firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) :complete trust

In the rare instances when I actually hear someone use the term "faith" those are the relevant definitions. What exactly do you think is the strawman being erected here? What's the concept of faith that's inconsistent with the way society uses the term?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Apparently the concept you attach to the word "faith" has nothing to do with what religious people, secular people, or dictionaries understand it to be. You can redefine "faith" and then argue against it, but that's called a strawman.
Which dictionary would you prefer to use? How about Dictionary.com?
Dictionary.com said:
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing:
faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof:
He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:
the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief:
the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement,etc.:
Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath,allegiance, etc.:
He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.

Unfortunately, dictionary definitions are rarely precise. But I think this entry entry nicely captures the many senses of the word 'faith'. We are focused on the religious sense of the word. So where is the strawman you accuse me of?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Which dictionary would you prefer to use? How about Dictionary.com?


Unfortunately, dictionary definitions are rarely precise. But I think this entry entry nicely captures the many senses of the word 'faith'. We are focused on the religious sense of the word. So where is the strawman you accuse me of?

I have faith that from here on out, the discussion will involve claims of how everyone/society is using the term "faith" incorrectly.
 
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zippy2006

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I believe I did justify them in my previous post, but I will elaborate. My characterization of faith as exclusive of and at odds with reason is not original to me or any atheistic philosopher. This was a position espoused implicitly by Paul and explicitly by many Christian philosophers and theologians,

You asserted, but you didn't show it.

including but by no means limited to Luther and Tertullian.

Tertullian died a heretic. Luther's views--especially on faith and reason--were never widely accepted by the Church (indeed he is also considered a heretic by many), and are now rejected even by Lutherans.

I did not mean to suggest that Christian theologians were unanimous in their disdain for reason, but there has clearly been a long lasting reluctance to claim that Christianity can be defended on the basis of reason and logic alone.

Claiming that faith is the opposite of reason is completely different from claiming that Christianity can be defended on the basis of reason and logic alone.

Christian apologists have consistently insisted on an escape hatch when reason and logic failed to support their arguments. Perhaps it is presuppositionalism, mandating that Christian belief be properly basic, insisting upon the authority of revelation available to us only through ancient unattested documents, or the authority of an intangible “holy spirit” that is available only through subjective experience. Christians have throughout history used the term “faith” to represent these sources of non-empirical knowledge. This warrants its use as shorthand to reference all of them, since they refer to essentially the same concept.

Perhaps "revelation" is the word you're fishing for. We believe that some revealed things are inaccessible to unaided reason. What does that have to do with the three sentences I criticized?

Your example illustrates the point quite well when applied to the context at issue. The little girl’s submission is based on evidence. Her entire life has presumably reflected a consistent direct experience of a physical and present father she has observed to care for her, protect her, and exhibit superior knowledge. We have a name for this which is entirely non-controversial: trust. Where good evidence warrants belief, that is trust, and trust is always reasonable.

Yes.

Contrast this with belief in God. God is invisible and incorporeal. He is not directly observable and there is no objective evidence supporting even his existence, much less that he has humanity’s best interests at heart and should be trusted. Humans lack the very thing that made the little girl’s trust in her father reasonable – good intersubjectively verifiable evidence. If one chooses to submit to God as the child submitted to her father, it must be on a different basis altogether.

Apart from the fact that I disagree with about everything you wrote there, you are conflating faith with belief in God's existence. Biblical faith is not belief in the existence of God, it is trust and adherence to the God you already believe to exist. God's existence may be a matter of faith for some, but strictly speaking it is part of the preamble of faith (praeambula fidei).

You yourself have expressed a view of faith that doesn’t rely on logic because it precedes logic. By claiming faith to be a valid premise of logic, you are arguing that Christian faith should be treated as properly basic. But how can you possibly justify this? Once you allow faith as a properly basic belief, all faiths become equally valid. There is absolutely no way to distinguish the true from the untrue, which is the defining characteristic of a fatally flawed approach.

What are you talking about? You seem to be fairly shoddy at reading minds.

So just for purposes of the remainder of this discussion, let’s use “faith” as a shorthand for a non-empirical basis for knowledge.

Define empirical.

By claiming that the “truths” of faith do not conflict with the “truths” of reason, the Christian begs the question at issue.

Reason and revelation have the same Author.

By appealing to faith , the Christian wishes to claim the status of knowledge for beliefs that have not fulfilled the minimum requirements of knowledge. He wishes to consider an idea as having a referent in reality while rejecting the process by which man knows reality. Regardless of the particular manner in which the Christian characterizes his version of faith, he cannot escape its irrational bias. His only chance of escape, to claim that the articles of faith can also meet the requirements of reason, is a dead end, because it renders the concepts of faith inapplicable. Faith is possible only in the case of beliefs that cannot be rationally demonstrated.

Nonsense.

You've truncated rationality and knowledge, and are begging the question with respect to your own narrow view. But more foundational than that, you're not even sure what you're talking about when you say "faith." The closest thing to a definition you've given is "non-empirical." Yet that isn't a definition, and futhermore you haven't defined empirical.

Anyway, these long diatribes show you more willing to hear the sound of your own voice than actually interact. You are running with misrepresentations left and right, and I'm losing interest.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Tertullian died a heretic. Luther's views--especially on faith and reason--were never widely accepted by the Church (indeed he is also considered a heretic by many), and are now rejected even by Lutherans.
Is Joel Osteen a heretic too?
 
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zippy2006

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Which dictionary would you prefer to use? How about Dictionary.com?

Sure. I'll take definitions 1, 2, & 3 all together. None of those definitions oppose trust or imply a lack of evidence, yet you are telling us that ("religious") faith is not trust and implies a lack of evidence.

Zippy, I can't find any definition of faith... apart from what yourself and others have posted on this forum...that includes some variation of "belief/trust based upon evidence/proof."

Here's what Webster has to say...

2

a (1) :belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) :belief in the traditionaldoctrines of a religionb (1) :firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) :complete trust

In the rare instances when I actually hear someone use the term "faith" those are the relevant definitions. What exactly do you think is the strawman being erected here? What's the concept of faith that's inconsistent with the way society uses the term?

You're confusing the burden of proof. Find me a definition that says faith is belief/trust without any evidence. The burden of proof is on you. Beliefs and trust are not generally formed without evidence (and in an earlier post to you I even posited the psychological impossibility of such a claim). When someone says they have a belief, it is assumed they have a reason for their belief. If faith were belief absent any evidence, then dictionaries would obviously include that latter part given its abnormality. The only reason believers have need of the extra (and redundant) clause about evidence is due to the irrationality of foreseen atheist allegations.

In any case, it is notable that the definition I gave did not include a clause about evidence. I wouldn't generally include such a clause, given its obviousness. Yet in a systematic theology text such as Berkhof's the more complete definition that anticipates polemics should not surprise anyone.

To reiterate, you all are resting your case on a definition that doesn't exist, namely that faith is belief in something without any evidence or reason.
 
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zippy2006

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Is Joel Osteen a heretic too?

He certainly isn't an authoritative source for the vast majority of Christians, nor does he pretend to be a systematic theologian. But if you asked him, do you think he would say that faith is something devoid of any reason or evidence? The tweet certainly doesn't imply that.

But what's your point? Are you trying to settle the philosophical definition of faith by reference to a tweet by Joel Osteen? What in the world are you doing here? Looking for "gotcha" moments? It seems that Architeuthus and anyone else seeking serious discussion about truth is right to ignore you.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Sure. I'll take definitions 1, 2, & 3 all together. None of those definitions oppose trust or imply a lack of evidence, yet you are telling us that ("religious") faith is not trust and implies a lack of evidence.
See definition 2. As I noted earlier, it's not precise (dictionary definitions rarely are), but it broadly fits with 'faith' as I have described it. Ana's definition from Webster's is an even better fit.

You're confusing the burden of proof. Find me a definition that says faith is belief/trust without any evidence. The burden of proof is on you. Beliefs and trust are not generally formed without evidence (and in an earlier post to you I even posited the psychological impossibility of such a claim). When someone says they have a belief, it is assumed they have a reason for their belief. If faith were belief absent any evidence, then dictionaries would obviously include that latter part given its abnormality. The only reason believers have need of the extra (and redundant) clause about evidence is due to the irrationality of foreseen atheist allegations.
Where did I claim that faith is belief without any evidence? That's not my position. More accurately, the purported evidence is not sufficient to warrant the level of confidence assigned to the belief.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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He certainly isn't an authoritative source for the vast majority of Christians, nor does he pretend to be a systematic theologian.
I'm interested in what believers actually believe, not what Sophisticated Theologians pretend that believers believe.

But what's your point? Are you trying to settle the philosophical definition of faith by reference to a tweet by Joel Osteen? What in the world are you doing here? Looking for "gotcha" moments? It seems that Architeuthus and anyone else seeking serious discussion about truth is right to ignore you.
See above. Sharing Osteen's tweet was not intended as a "gotcha." It was to illustrate the kind of faith I am talking about.
 
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Davian

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In the evidence of the example of thousands of people who live in communion with Christ,
Can even one of them demonstrate that this experience is more than imagined?
in the evidence of the lives of the Saints,
Untestable.
in the evidence of the life in the Church of Christ,
Relgions do not require actual gods in order to exist. They cannot be all right.
in the evidence of history,
The Bible is not history.
in the evidence of the Bible,
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.
in the evidence of our existance,
We are only evidence of us.
in the evidence of this universe,
The universe is evidence of itself.
in the evidence of our souls...
What is a "soul"?
There is no lack of evidence,
Indeed. Terrible, untestable, unfalsifiable evidence, and faulty and fallacious arguments. Lots of it, though.
just people who deny the truth
I do not deny your "truth", I take the neutral position; disbelief until convinced otherwise.
and won't accept it because they prefer to live in a lie :D
Why would I not want to be shown that there is more to human existence than this brief biological stint here on Earth?
 
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