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$15 Dollar per hour minimum wage your Thoughts?

MoreCoffee

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No. It's going to cause inflation to skyrocket. ...
Australia pays $16/hour as the minimum wage rate and inflation here has not sky rocketed. Your post's prediction of sky rocketing inflation is not supported by the facts.
 
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keith99

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Here is where $15/Hour is headed. No vacation time needed, no healthcare insurance, no workman's compensation costs, never calls in sick or hung over, and never has an attitude problem.


View attachment 158828

I just saw one step in that direction. My gas meter is now smart. E.g. no meter reader needed. Perhaps coming soon is a bit off. Already here in other businesses.
 
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K9_Trainer

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Australia pays $16/hour as the minimum wage rate and inflation here has not sky rocketed. Your post's prediction of sky rocketing inflation is not supported by the facts.

But it's also a fact that Australia is much different than America. I hope I'm wrong if the min wage does get raised. But I personally am skeptical and I see it creating more problems than it solves right now. Other measures need to be taken to fix some of the things wrong here.
 
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MoreCoffee

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But it's also a fact that Australia is much different than America. I hope I'm wrong if the min wage does get raised. But I personally am skeptical and I see it creating more problems than it solves right now. Other measures need to be taken to fix some of the things wrong here.
Well, this thread is about $15/hour in Los Angeles. That's not nation wide as far as I can tell.
 
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Australia pays $16/hour as the minimum wage rate and inflation here has not sky rocketed. Your post's prediction of sky rocketing inflation is not supported by the facts.

It's not as if a minimum wage hike in any area really affects overall inflation, perhaps allocation of labor, but not overall inflation. However, even if this argument did have merit if one is going to try to make it simply by comparing $ amounts, it's necessary to take into consideration what that $ buys for a working comparison.

To this end, you might compare what a Big Mac costs in Australia compared to the USA. Or a pack of Marlboro reds. Or any other handful of consumables, even bigger ticket items like automobiles. Then it might be close to a valid point, assuming overall inflation is caused by price hikes, which it isn't.
 
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MoreCoffee

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It's not as if a minimum wage hike in any area really affects overall inflation, perhaps allocation of labor, but not overall inflation. However, even if this argument did have merit if one is going to try to make it simply by comparing $ amounts, it's necessary to take into consideration what that $ buys for a working comparison.

To this end, you might compare what a Big Mac costs in Australia compared to the USA. Or a pack of Marlboro reds. Or any other handful of consumables, even bigger ticket items like automobiles. Then it might be close to a valid point, assuming overall inflation is caused by price hikes, which it isn't.
Inflation is a part of the weird ideas we have as a culture about economic growth. For example, if your nation has inflation at 2% and GDP growth at 3.5% the press tells us that we're growing at 3.5% when in reality our economic growth can be no higher than 3.5-2% = 1.5% but of course 1.5% as headline growth looks bad and hence is not reported. There are many deceptions in the way the economy is promoted by statistics. And the effect of the claims made is this; the disparity between the top 10% and the other 90% grows larger and larger both in monitory terms ($ value) and in proportions of the economy 'owned' by each group (% value of the economy).

Increasing the minimum wage rate to $15/hour in Los Angeles is a good thing, it ought to be higher than that, but keeping it under $15/hour is almost a crime against humanity. It certainly serves nobody but those who wish to accumulate more and more of the nation's wealth.

And for Christians the morality of paying a labourer such low wages for his/her work ought to play a major role in how we think of this issue.
 
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Sir Robbins

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I worked at Arby's for some time in 2012 and 2013. I know the fast food game and agree there needs to be a pay raise OR more workers hired. One of the two. I operated the whole front end; swept and mopped floors, took orders, cleaned tables and restrooms, stocked bottled drinks and made shakes all in the same shift. I would be cleaning tables and then someone walks in to order. I was running back and forth every day. The same went for being the fryer. I did the fries, chicken, fish, potato cakes and prepped them after frying them. Taking orders was the worst though. We had one window so I took orders, made drinks and made change all at the same time. I dreaded Sundays at lunch time. It was mentally beyond anything I had ever done and never will do again do to my medical conditions. I know the feeling of fast food. I know retail the most though. I am still owed 57 hours from Macys of unpaid time. I'm waiting for a suit to open up on them for their breaking and threatening of labor laws
 
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SnowyMacie

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Here's a comic a friend shared yesterday that reminded me of this thread..

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Texas101

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The bottom 50% may not pay federal income taxes but they surely pay sales taxes and land taxes if they own a property and if they don't then they pay land taxes through rent and they pay taxes on numerous other services, such as road tolls, license fees, government fees for school books and other necessary school supplies. It is only those who must survive on charity and welfare who would be free from school costs. So the idea that the bottom 50% pay no taxes is untrue. It is one of the many untruths told in debates about taxation and minimum wage rates.

Keep in mind my statement was the bottom 50% pay no taxes on earned income not that the bottom 50% pay no taxes at all. We all pay taxes to some degree or another. We often pay too much in taxes. Like or not the biggest loop hole in earned income taxes benefits to bottom 50% of earners. This is a fact that can't be ignored. Then the upper 50% pays 100% of the taxes it's has a different name, wealth transfer.

The problem is the development of class warfare (strong word to use) in America. Class warfare also developed during the first depression. The populace thought people like George Westinghouse was a hero for electrifying cities, and was later seen as a nemesis because of the money he made from electrifying cities. It's history repeating itself.
 
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Texas101

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I'm sorry but while I believe those making millions and billions of dollars should NOT have loop holes to keep them from paying taxes, and while I do not agree to hand outs in the form of bail outs for Wall Street, but I also don't believe in taxing the lowest wage earners in this country. I come from a wealthy family and while my dad enjoyed his tax breaks he never once thought the poorer people should have to pay them. Some things I am just glad I take after him.

I'm not certain what loopholes are being used to allow individuals "making millions and billions" to avoid paying taxes. Corporations on the other hand are a different story as this would fall under corporate welfare.

I came from a poor family, so poor we couldn't afford to paint and too proud to whitewash. I worked hard for decades to achieve my station in life and I pay a considerable amount in taxes each year. What bother's me are those who don't value the benefits of my labor (taxes) that pay for their lifestyle choices in many cases. I believe a graduated tax system is likely the most fair overall.
 
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SnowyMacie

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Keep in mind my statement was the bottom 50% pay no taxes on earned income not that the bottom 50% pay no taxes at all. We all pay taxes to some degree or another. We often pay too much in taxes. Like or not the biggest loop hole in earned income taxes benefits to bottom 50% of earners. This is a fact that can't be ignored. Then the upper 50% pays 100% of the taxes it's has a different name, wealth transfer.

That's really not true at all. It's safe to assume that since the median income is $51,000 in the U.S. that half the U.S. population makes less than 51,000. Depending on various factors, the people right in this middle are going to be in 15% or 25% tax bracket, but even people at the 10% rate, still pay the 10% of their income on taxes. What actually likely happens is since the lower income you have, the less you pay in taxes, therefore the greater chance is that your refund will either match or exceed the amount you paid.

I'm not certain what loopholes are being used to allow individuals "making millions and billions" to avoid paying taxes.
I really can't say either for sure either, maybe not have any domestic income, or simply know exactly what you need to do to get every penny back you can. I can say is that they can afford to pay lawyers whose entire job is to figure this out.
 
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Texas101

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If you truly believe that the only way to keep people employed is to pay them less than is needed to live then how far will such logic go? Shall slavery be reintroduced so that slaves can be fed by their masters and housed by them but receive no pay? That would surely be cheaper than $15/hour in Los Angeles Ca today. But when it comes down to it machines may be cheaper still and then even slavery would not keep people in employment. So this argument that one needs to keep the minimum wage rate down in order the preserve employment is hollow. It gives the semblance of reason but entirely lacks its substance.

Paying people a living wage is a moral duty that cannot be shirked on the excuse that by paying less one keeps the poor in work. That's a sham that even the poor see through and since the poor and middle classes outnumber ten to one the wealthy who advance such arguments one can only expect social unrest and troubled times if it is perused for much longer.

Let me first establish that my posting stands on it's own without your efforts to embellishment. You ask how far down should we go, why not ask how far up we should go? Equating lowering wage to slavery makes as much sense as raising the minimum wage to what Warren Buffet makes to solve poverty. Doubling the minimum wage across the board will create inflated pricing to be born by all, including those whose pay check didn't double.

You claim there is a "moral duty" to pay a living wage. Who determines where that minimum wage is set? How was the proposed $15/hour determined? Raising the minimum wage means the new minimum wage becomes unlivable due to the increase costs of good and services. It becomes an economic diminishing return. Should the minimum wage be adjusted to compensate for inflation? My answer is yes.

As a side note, Seattle recently raised the minimum wage to 15/ hour and the cost of everything jumped by 20%. Restaurant patrons have stopped tipping wait staff. As a result the average $27/hour they used to earn dropped to $15/hour.

Businesses do not exist to provide jobs, they exist to make a profit. Most businesses in the US are small businesses with often thin profit margins. Raising the minimum wage will force the business owner to make a choice between raising prices on goods and services to finding ways to reduce costs. For most businesses payroll costs are the number one operating costs.

The reality (substance) will be those who loose their jobs after their jobs are automated. Higher unemployment and inflation is the ignition point for civil unrest. Look at what's happening in Venezuela.
 
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Texas101

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That's really not true at all. It's safe to assume that since the median income is $51,000 in the U.S. that half the U.S. population makes less than 51,000. Depending on various factors, the people right in this middle are going to be in 15% or 25% tax bracket, but even people at the 10% rate, still pay the 10% of their income on taxes. What actually likely happens is since the lower income you have, the less you pay in taxes, therefore the greater chance is that your refund will either match or exceed the amount you paid.


I really can't say either for sure either, maybe not have any domestic income, or simply know exactly what you need to do to get every penny back you can. I can say is that they can afford to pay lawyers whose entire job is to figure this out.

Don't forget to take into account the EIC, standard deductions, child tax credit, and other items that directly reduce or eliminate one's taxes.
 
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SnowyMacie

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Don't forget to take into account the EIC, standard deductions, child tax credit, and other items that directly reduce or eliminate one's taxes.

You do understand that's exactly my point, right? When you are on the lower brackets, the easier it is for these things to amount to breaking even (get back exactly what you already paid) or getting more back than you actually paid. Everyone pays taxes, it's automatically deducted from your income.
 
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SnowyMacie

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Let me first establish that my posting stands on it's own without your efforts to embellishment. You ask how far down should we go, why not ask how far up we should go? Equating lowering wage to slavery makes as much sense as raising the minimum wage to what Warren Buffet makes to solve poverty. Doubling the minimum wage across the board will create inflated pricing to be born by all, including those whose pay check didn't double.

You claim there is a "moral duty" to pay a living wage. Who determines where that minimum wage is set? How was the proposed $15/hour determined? Raising the minimum wage means the new minimum wage becomes unlivable due to the increase costs of good and services. It becomes an economic diminishing return. Should the minimum wage be adjusted to compensate for inflation? My answer is yes.

As a side note, Seattle recently raised the minimum wage to 15/ hour and the cost of everything jumped by 20%. Restaurant patrons have stopped tipping wait staff. As a result the average $27/hour they used to earn dropped to $15/hour.

Businesses do not exist to provide jobs, they exist to make a profit. Most businesses in the US are small businesses with often thin profit margins. Raising the minimum wage will force the business owner to make a choice between raising prices on goods and services to finding ways to reduce costs. For most businesses payroll costs are the number one operating costs.

The reality (substance) will be those who loose their jobs after their jobs are automated. Higher unemployment and inflation is the ignition point for civil unrest. Look at what's happening in Venezuela.

Businesses don't exist to make a profit, they exist to provide a good or service. Business have to make a profit, but they don't exist for that sole purpose. Perhaps the business was started for that purpose, but they don't provide anything valuable to anyone else, it's going to fail. Unless you have to provide for someone who cannot make income, minimum wage is technically a livable wage, if you consider livable (without any subsidies) to be an apartment, food, water and heat, and maybe bus fare to get to work. As I said before, unless everyone makes the same, relative poverty is always going to exist, that's just how numbers work, but that doesn't give us an excuse to not try to improve everyone's standard of living. The American mentality of, to quote Sen. Marco Rubio "We are a nation of haves and soon to haves, of people who made it and people who will make it" is a great sounding idea, but it doesn't work because not everyone can or is going to make it. Yet, we continue to believe that anyone and everyone can make it even though that's not economically, or mathematically possible.Personally, I think it's rooted in our revolutionary days when we revolted against a heavily classed society. We don't want to really admit that we've ended up in the same place as every other society ever, an upper and lower class. While we may admit that yeah, we technically have it, it's not really a permanent situation. Sure, class movement exist, but it's not as common as we want to believe it is. Here's an illustration to show how it works, imagine you have a classroom full of students, and you place the trash can in front of the room. You ask everyone to crumple up a sheet of paper, and say "if you make it in, you are in the upper class, and you cannot move from where you are right now". Most of those at front will make it, but only a few in the back will.

$15/hour is too high, for example, the UK's is €8.62 ($9.49), Germany has €9.21/hr, ($10.13). We have one of the lowest minimum wages in the developed world, but we also have one of the lowest income tax rates among other advanced economies. This goes back to the idea of our sense of self-reliance and the idea that we can make it with no ones, inherently distrustful of the government, and the only advanced economy that really thinks like that. We have one of the worst rates of wealth inequality in the world, and I can't help but wonder if it's our optimistic, self-reliant, distrustful mindset. Those economies that do help it's poor through higher taxes of the wealthy, free healthcare and education, etc. "socialist" (gasp) policies don't have nearly the wealth inequality that we do. I've been to Europe, people are still seem just as happy, if not more happy than here. We don't just need a higher minimum wage, we need better economic ideas.
 
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Texas101

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You do understand that's exactly my point, right? When you are on the lower brackets, the easier it is for these things to amount to breaking even (get back exactly what you already paid) or getting more back than you actually paid. Everyone pays taxes, it's automatically deducted from your income.

Taxes aren't paid if those taxes are refunded.
 
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Texas101

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Businesses don't exist to make a profit, they exist to provide a good or service. Business have to make a profit, but they don't exist for that sole purpose. Perhaps the business was started for that purpose, but they don't provide anything valuable to anyone else, it's going to fail. Unless you have to provide for someone who cannot make income, minimum wage is technically a livable wage, if you consider livable (without any subsidies) to be an apartment, food, water and heat, and maybe bus fare to get to work. As I said before, unless everyone makes the same, relative poverty is always going to exist, that's just how numbers work, but that doesn't give us an excuse to not try to improve everyone's standard of living. The American mentality of, to quote Sen. Marco Rubio "We are a nation of haves and soon to haves, of people who made it and people who will make it" is a great sounding idea, but it doesn't work because not everyone can or is going to make it. Yet, we continue to believe that anyone and everyone can make it even though that's not economically, or mathematically possible.Personally, I think it's rooted in our revolutionary days when we revolted against a heavily classed society. We don't want to really admit that we've ended up in the same place as every other society ever, an upper and lower class. While we may admit that yeah, we technically have it, it's not really a permanent situation. Sure, class movement exist, but it's not as common as we want to believe it is. Here's an illustration to show how it works, imagine you have a classroom full of students, and you place the trash can in front of the room. You ask everyone to crumple up a sheet of paper, and say "if you make it in, you are in the upper class, and you cannot move from where you are right now". Most of those at front will make it, but only a few in the back will.

$15/hour is too high, for example, the UK's is €8.62 ($9.49), Germany has €9.21/hr, ($10.13). We have one of the lowest minimum wages in the developed world, but we also have one of the lowest income tax rates among other advanced economies. This goes back to the idea of our sense of self-reliance and the idea that we can make it with no ones, inherently distrustful of the government, and the only advanced economy that really thinks like that. We have one of the worst rates of wealth inequality in the world, and I can't help but wonder if it's our optimistic, self-reliant, distrustful mindset. Those economies that do help it's poor through higher taxes of the wealthy, free healthcare and education, etc. "socialist" (gasp) policies don't have nearly the wealth inequality that we do. I've been to Europe, people are still seem just as happy, if not more happy than here. We don't just need a higher minimum wage, we need better economic ideas.

If things are more equal in other countries with more socialistic policies, why are their citizens seeking to come to American for the opportunity? I stated in another post in this chain that I was born into a poor family. The motivation to improve my station in life was to see the opportunities and potential around me and the fact that I wasn't stuck in my particular social class. Government charity tends to make people unmotivated. I also tend to think another de-motivator is high taxes. Why work hard to get ahead if it's going to be taxed away?

I agree that better economic policies are needed. It seems that the politicos keep singing about how the economy is improving as the unemployment numbers (a fabrication a best) keeps dropping. I tend to think the better measure of a growing economy is by the number of people getting off public assistance. At the moment about 1/3 of American's are on some form of public assistance. The State of Maine put in place workfare and suddenly the welfare rolls dropped and people began seeking employment.

In reference to seeking opportunity; since automation is an up and coming technology the smart opportunist will get the training needed to design, operate, install, and maintain things like order entry kiosks and industrial robotics. Finding opportunity may also require changing where one lives. To escape the economic mess in Michigan we moved to Texas. Looking back I now see many of my family in Michigan still struggling to make it, while those who moved to Texas made it.

One question that needs to be asked; How was the $15/hour minimum wage established as a livable wage? No one seems to be able to provide an answer based on hard facts.

Your trash can example is interesting, I'll offer an alternative on this theme. If the students were arranged in a circle around the trash can (equal opportunity) then each student would have the same opportunity. Those who failed would need to try again (practice, train, and work at) to get it in the bucket. Some students won't reach the bucket due to disability, however most who fail will give up due to a lack of motivation. It's my opinion that disabled students should be given assistance to reach their maximum potential. Not much can be done about motivation as this comes from within.

With equal opportunity comes the potential for both failure and success. Those who were once at the top are no longer, such as the Vanderbilt's. There are others who hit bottom and later reached the top such as Chris Gardner.

The American dream is based upon equal opportunity not equal results.
 
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SnowyMacie

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If things are more equal in other countries with more socialistic policies, why are their citizens seeking to come to American for the opportunity? I stated in another post in this chain that I was born into a poor family. The motivation to improve my station in life was to see the opportunities and potential around me and the fact that I wasn't stuck in my particular social class. Government charity tends to make people unmotivated. I also tend to think another de-motivator is high taxes. Why work hard to get ahead if it's going to be taxed away?

Europe hasn't been the main source of immigrants in decades. In 2013, European immigrants only accounted for 11% of immigrants, half of which came from Eastern Europe (which is still poorer than the rest of Europe). Mexico, just by itself, almost had three times as many legal immigrants as all of Europe. If you look at the total populations of Europe and Latin America, it actually makes that 11% look like more of the result of simply having a larger population. Nobody in Western, Northern, or Southern Europe really sees America as the land of opportunity anymore. I've lived in Europe, and my experience there and interacting either Europeans online think America should be more like Europe. The idea of moving to America for better opportunity there died out decades ago. In fact, if anything American emigration to Europe is actually rising.

Yes, I did see that you were born poor family. Every family in America sees the opportunity, that's one of the points of cartoon and the illustration. In reality, the chances of it actually happening are outstandingly higher than we want to think. We want to think that anyone and everyone can "make it", but that doesn't economically or mathematically work. It's like saying we want everyone to be above average, it's simply not possible. What is possible is raising the standard of living for the lower class, but it's not possible to simply not have one. There has never been a truly classless where everyone is truly equal with the exact same opportunities. I'll touch on this at the end.

The issue with taxes comes down to the difference between Americans and Europeans. We're taught taxes are, at best, a necessary evil, at worst, morally wrong. A lot Americans have the mentality "I don't want to pay for dead beat mom's second kid", instead of "I have higher taxes so a major medical emergency won't bankrupt me." In the UK, for example, they see the government as a provider. Americans don't think like that, this is why we see things like welfare, taxes, etc. as de-motivators. If this was actually true, we should be vastly more wealthy than everyone else, but we're not. We're 10th in GDP per-capita, but we are first in GDP. We do have a large economy, but we're also the third largest country in the world and more advanced than the two above us. GDP Per-Capita, we're anywhere between 10-14 depending on the source.


One question that needs to be asked; How was the $15/hour minimum wage established as a livable wage? No one seems to be able to provide an answer based on hard facts.

I did try to look it up, but with no solid results. I would say, depending on your location, somewhere in the $9-$10/hour would be a livable wage.

Your trash can example is interesting, I'll offer an alternative on this theme. If the students were arranged in a circle around the trash can (equal opportunity) then each student would have the same opportunity. Those who failed would need to try again (practice, train, and work at) to get it in the bucket. Some students won't reach the bucket due to disability, however most who fail will give up due to a lack of motivation. It's my opinion that disabled students should be given assistance to reach their maximum potential. Not much can be done about motivation as this comes from within.

The American dream is based upon equal opportunity not equal results.

That's what I've been saying, equal opportunity does not truly exist in America. Yes, everyone may technically have access to the same to the opportunities here, but that's not what happens in reality, and that's another point in the cartoon. It's a nice thing to think about everyone having the equal opportunities, but it doesn't actually work like that. I came from the upper class, believe me, I guarantee that you did not have same opportunities as me. Unless they had an actual learning disability, nobody at my level had to actually work hard to get where they are in life, and even then, most of them had private tutors on top of the assistance from the school. Most things we've had, we didn't have to "work for". I'm talking about opportunities, our parents are those at the top of their fields, they have connections everywhere, they can afford those private tutors and help pay for more of their child's college tuition, etc. Here's a real life story to illustrate this: I have been life-long friends with four other guys, I'll say there name are Mark, Luke, and John. Luke's, John's, and my family are all about on the same socioeconomic level, the line between middle and upper class, but Mark's is very smack-dab in the middle. All four of us went to the same church growing up, lived in the same part of the city, and then went off to the same college and pledged the same fraternity. On the exterior surface, we have pretty identical lives. We're even all of fairly similar intelligence, made similar grades, etc. Now, there were small times in high school, but our advantages really didn't come into show until college. Luke and Mark were up for the same scholarship through our university. Luke, in the upper class literally had a specialist hired from his parents to help with college applications and scholarship interviews like the one he was up for, while Mark did not. Luke got the scholarship even though they pretty much had similar resumes. Now that we've all graduated, Luke, John, and I are not a few steps ahead of Mark mainly because we don't have to worry about the student loans he is know worrying about. On the surface, equal opportunity exist, below the surface, you'll see it really doesn't.
 
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blackribbon

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The bottom 50% may not pay federal income taxes but they surely pay sales taxes and land taxes if they own a property and if they don't then they pay land taxes through rent and they pay taxes on numerous other services, such as road tolls, license fees, government fees for school books and other necessary school supplies. It is only those who must survive on charity and welfare who would be free from school costs. So the idea that the bottom 50% pay no taxes is untrue. It is one of the many untruths told in debates about taxation and minimum wage rates.
Depends on where you are. In my state the lowest earners get tax credit toward property taxes...even if you rent. So they pay sales tax and get earned income credit if they work (this is money back after they don't have to pay any federal taxes). So you pay sales tax on products (not food) and licensing taxes if you drive....and reduced taxes on property... It is still tax but significantly less than the rest of the tax payers.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Depends on where you are. In my state the lowest earners get tax credit toward property taxes...even if you rent. So they pay sales tax and get earned income credit if they work (this is money back after they don't have to pay any federal taxes). So you pay sales tax on products (not food) and licensing taxes if you drive....and reduced taxes on property... It is still tax but significantly less than the rest of the tax payers.
I lived in California in the bay area and in Los Angeles. Sales tax applied to various sorts of food items, to clothing, footwear, McDonalds fast foods, tacos, and probably all other fast foods.

It is common for governments to shift tax from income to consumption because consumption taxes are easier to collect - they use shop keepers as collectors - and because it hits everybody who consumes in their jurisdiction. Of course consumption taxes are referred to as flat taxes or retrograde taxes because they disproportionately tax low income households - low income households spend close to every dollar that they earn while high income households have a great deal of discretionary spending and hence save a great deal.

In all of this the basic moral principle that a worker is worthy of his wages and the means of life must not be withheld from the poor seems to be ignored. I can understand an atheist arguing for low wages and high taxation for the poor because there is no necessary link between their system of morals and godly justice but for christians it seems almost monstrous to be arguing for low wages and high taxation for the poor.
 
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