DUGGERS and 3 questions

[Archaeopteryx]

Well with that I have no qualms with people discussing.

What I do take fault with is people comparing two sins and finding themselves seemingly flabbergasted that Christians repent and seek forgiveness and other Christians respect and understand that.

Yes, we have to appreciate that secular law could, should or would have dealt with him in a particular way under 'x, y or z' circumstance, but from the perspective of Biblical teaching, people aren't understanding the difference between a sin that has been repented and forgiveness sought and another sin perpetrated by a person(s) that sees no wrong in it, doesn't repent and doesn't seek forgiveness.
Of course Christians will take fault with that and differentiate.

For the most part, Christians aren't defending his actions. What they are defending, however, is that he has repented and that isn't something to be disregarded or ignored on behalf of the unceasing pressure from another, sinful agenda.

Would you be saying that if it were not for the church's doctrine concerning same-sex relationships? Were it not for that distorting influence, I doubt anyone would reserve judgment regarding which situation is worse, regardless of contrition.

 

[High Fidelity]

Abusers apologize all the time. People know that this doesn't mean that they won't do it again, which is the most important issue. Obviously the people involved know more about how safe he is to be around than I do, but one of the kids said they didn't feel safe when he came back home.

Well sure, that's not up for question. A friend forgives, a fool forgets.

It's naive to suggest we forget what has happened, but who are we to say he can't be forgiven?

There are several death row documentaries where victims and families of the victims have found it in them to be forgiven, so it isn't entirely impossible no matter how difficult it may seem.

 

[Cearbhall]

What they are defending, however, is that he has repented and that isn't something to be disregarded or ignored on behalf of the unceasing pressure from another, sinful agenda.

It's not really about him. It's about the safety of the people around him.

 

[High Fidelity]

Would you be saying that if it were not for the church's doctrine concerning same-sex relationships? Were it not for that distorting influence, I doubt anyone would reserve judgment regarding which situation is worse, regardless of contrition.

If it wasn't the Bible's position on it then it probably wouldn't have been brought up.

 

[Cearbhall]

It was the Duggers who said that the LGBT community should not be around young children because they pose a direct threat to children. It is obvious and documented how the Duggers used their position as a 'so called' wholesome Christian family to bring down and cast doubt and shame upon many innocent people, using God and the Bible to further their own biased opinon.

I can understand how this way of thinking develops, even if I don't have any patience for it. They want to think that they can keep bad things from happening by being in control of everything in their lives. It's much easier to think that homosexuality is the cause of pedophilia, because that's a trait of "them" rather than "us." With this mindset, they can convince themselves that they are protected from such things.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If it wasn't the Bible's position on it then it probably wouldn't have been brought up.

Exactly. It wouldn't. Were it not for church doctrine, no one would think that the two are comparable or even that they belong to the same category. Hence my allusion to the distorting influence of doctrine on moral evaluation.

 

[Cearbhall]

It's naive to suggest we forget what has happened, but who are we to say he can't be forgiven?

There are several death row documentaries where victims and families of the victims have found it in them to be forgiven, so it isn't entirely impossible no matter how difficult it may seem.

I haven't really seen anyone saying that the parents or girls would be idiots to forgive him. I could be wrong. I certainly don't take issue with whether or not people forgive him. Some victims find that it helps a lot. I'm not going to tell people that they're healing the wrong way.

The #1 complaint that I'm seeing is that everything they've said is about forgiving him and helping him, when that isn't the primary concern.

 

[High Fidelity]

Exactly. It wouldn't. Were it not for church doctrine, no one would think that the two are comparable or even that they belong to the same category. Hence my allusion to the distorting influence of doctrine on moral evaluation.

People from both sides are involving themselves and trying to make their point, both believing they're right.

 

[tulc]

hmmm...here's a quick look at the "counseling" the girls probably got after the molesting:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/what-did-josh-duggars-counseling-look-like.html
tulc( )

 

[katautumn]

Some major issues here.

1. Josh did not receive proper counseling. He was sent to Bill Gothard's scandalized Institute for Basic Life Principles and then he helped a family friend build a house.

2. Over a year after the incidents of sexual abuse came to the surface, Jim Bob took Josh to a State Trooper who just happened to be a very close family friend. This trooper allegedly gave Josh a "stern talking to" and then the case was never kept up with. That trooper ended up being sentenced to nearly 60 years in prison on charges of child pornography.

3. Because one of the victims requested that the records be destroyed, and due to the lack of proper case management by the police, the victims will never see justice for what happened to them. In fact, it's most likely they were somehow blamed for it. They must have worn their hair the wrong way or wore pajamas to bed that tempted their brother.

4. The Duggars are raging hypocrites. They go around boasting about how their children didn't even so much as kiss until their wedding days, because they are so pure and so holy, yet Josh committed incestuous sex crimes and I highly suspect Jill was pregnant on her wedding day.

5. People keep defending Josh saying, "ahhhh he was just a kid". How come when a white, straight, cisgender, Christian young man commits a crime (particularly a sex crime) it's brushed off with the whole "boys will be boys" mentality. Yet when a black male, or a gay teen, does something wrong they should be shot, thrown in prison, executed, whatever the case may be.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The same could be applied to a lot of situations.

Guilt by association is a slippery slope.

Just because someone did something bad shouldn't forbid the family from having an opinion.

And that is why the entire world is lashing back at them. Most people don't support bigot's or child molester's.

 

[High Fidelity]

And that is why the entire world is lashing back at them. Most people don't support bigot's or child molester's.

Yes and most people hate the sinner and not the sin. See the problem?

 

[tulc]

more info on the place Mr Dugger got counseled: http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/fou...fter-sexually-grooming-teens-and-young-women/
tulc( )

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Their morals are high by their own standard (except for Josh).

If he's never fondled or molested a child again. I would think his morals would be high. He did turn his self in to his father. I'm not sure most offenders do. I give him that much. He has a big problem he need help with, sought help for it. Hopefully he can fight the urge, because if he cant, then there could be many more victims. I do think TLC knew and many people knew. I think they left it alone because they believe he got counseling and was able to fight the urge. I cant blame Josh because he sought help, I believe his parents did too. Did the authorities do enough? No, they have access, to better services to treat all the people involve.

 

[jmldn2]

By SDMSANJOSE

1. I do not know much about the Duggers except that I just read a little on Wikipedia. They seem to be a very conservative Christian family that seems to present a very high moral standard. Josh’s sex issue is sure to disgust many. The loss of Josh’s job and cancellation of the Duggers on their reality show will surly reduces their income.

I am not real surprised that this far right ultra-moral family has a sex skeleton in the closet. Trying to live the ultra-moral life is commendable but with 21 in the family it is no big surprise that one has violated the sex positions of the very conservative Christian.

Other than the failure of Josh at age 14 there seems to not be any other reason to punish the Dugger family. Josh has given up his job and lost an income sourse, the Dugger family has lost the reality show, the Dugger parents and family have to suffer the fact that their daugters are victims of molestation from their own family, and now the public humiliation. QUESTIONS 1 and 2

1 What good does it to berate them more?

2. Do they deserve more punishments?

Although I am no fan of ultra conservative Christian Republicans, I do admire the Dugger parents for raising so many children and taking in the father’s mother into the household. As far as I know there are no other moral failures in that family and that is to be commended.
Question 3

3. How many of us could raise 19 children and only have one failure in the family?

By SDMSANJOSE

1. I do not know much about the Duggers except that I just read a little on Wikipedia. They seem to be a very conservative Christian family that seems to present a very high moral standard. Josh’s sex issue is sure to disgust many. The loss of Josh’s job and cancellation of the Duggers on their reality show will surly reduces their income.

I am not real surprised that this far right ultra-moral family has a sex skeleton in the closet. Trying to live the ultra-moral life is commendable but with 21 in the family it is no big surprise that one has violated the sex positions of the very conservative Christian.

Other than the failure of Josh at age 14 there seems to not be any other reason to punish the Dugger family. Josh has given up his job and lost an income sourse, the Dugger family has lost the reality show, the Dugger parents and family have to suffer the fact that their daugters are victims of molestation from their own family, and now the public humiliation. QUESTIONS 1 and 2

1 What good does it to berate them more?

2. Do they deserve more punishments?

Although I am no fan of ultra conservative Christian Republicans, I do admire the Dugger parents for raising so many children and taking in the father’s mother into the household. As far as I know there are no other moral failures in that family and that is to be commended.
Question 3

3. How many of us could raise 19 children and only have one failure in the family?

 

[jmldn2]

By SDMSANJOSE

1. I do not know much about the Duggers except that I just read a little on Wikipedia. They seem to be a very conservative Christian family that seems to present a very high moral standard. Josh’s sex issue is sure to disgust many. The loss of Josh’s job and cancellation of the Duggers on their reality show will surly reduces their income.

I am not real surprised that this far right ultra-moral family has a sex skeleton in the closet. Trying to live the ultra-moral life is commendable but with 21 in the family it is no big surprise that one has violated the sex positions of the very conservative Christian.

Other than the failure of Josh at age 14 there seems to not be any other reason to punish the Dugger family. Josh has given up his job and lost an income sourse, the Dugger family has lost the reality show, the Dugger parents and family have to suffer the fact that their daugters are victims of molestation from their own family, and now the public humiliation. QUESTIONS 1 and 2

1 What good does it to berate them more?

2. Do they deserve more punishments?

Although I am no fan of ultra conservative Christian Republicans, I do admire the Dugger parents for raising so many children and taking in the father’s mother into the household. As far as I know there are no other moral failures in that family and that is to be commended.
Question 3

3. How many of us could raise 19 children and only have one failure in the family?

This is a really sad story of a fine family who are as human as I am and are subject (no matter how close they are to God) to sinful actions as anyone else. I do not approve of any kind of molestation acts by anyone. I do not condone this. I do not see any further need, however, of continuing to trash this family. He made a confession, resigned from his job, and the rest of the family will have to suffer consequences of his actions as well. I say enough is enough.

 

[South Bound]

Well the daughters will presumably never have recourse, that sort of conservative community sees victims of sexual crimes (or even consensual sex) as damaged goods.

As a member of "that sort of conservative community", could you please show some evidence for your slanderous false witness?

 

[katherine2001]

As I said in the last thread, Please people grow up. this happened 12 years ago when he was also a child. This does not excuse what happened. But Josh Dugger is not a pedophile since he was also underage. Being a minor means that one's judgement is not mature and that you are more Likely to do stupid things. Not to mention that he owned up to his crime and his family got him some help and even talked to a police officer who showed him what would happen if he continued down that path. He also admitted to his wife before they got engaged and has not lied about this. This incident happened 12 years ago. He is 27 now and was about 14 then. His family and the victims have forgiven him. Instead of condemning him for something that happened long in the past, forgive him as Christ forgave you. He is now right with God and is trying to serve him and his family. Anyway I hope people grow up and the show continues to show Christian values. We as Christians all make mistakes and the people that are close to us often hurt us. But as the Dugger family does forgive as Christ forgives, and love as Christ loves. Shouldn't we do the same?? Take the log out of your own eyes and let's support each other in our christian walk. God bless the Dugger family and everyone who continues to try to do what's right.

If a 14 year old doesn't know that fondling girls while they are asleep is wrong, then Mom and Dad did a lousy job of teaching their child right from wrong. My brothers certainly knew this behavior was wrong and unacceptable by that age (as did I). But then, my parents had enough sense to not have the boys and girls sharing the same bedroom.

 

[Viren]

They've already made a fortune off the show so they're all good regardless. That's why they started the show despite having skeletons in the closet.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well with that I have no qualms with people discussing.

What I do take fault with is people comparing two sins and finding themselves seemingly flabbergasted that Christians repent and seek forgiveness and other Christians respect and understand that.

Yes, we have to appreciate that secular law could, should or would have dealt with him in a particular way under 'x, y or z' circumstance, but from the perspective of Biblical teaching, people aren't understanding the difference between a sin that has been repented and forgiveness sought and another sin perpetrated by a person(s) that sees no wrong in it, doesn't repent and doesn't seek forgiveness.
Of course Christians will take fault with that and differentiate.

For the most part, Christians aren't defending his actions. What they are defending, however, is that he has repented and that isn't something to be disregarded or ignored on behalf of the unceasing pressure from another, sinful agenda.

His parents "made" him repent. If you are coerced into repentence than it is coerced. Only God knows what really happened and if he repented to God. His family in their Patriarchial ways made him say sorry. Who knows what a sorry that was.

Also, if I may ask, how much do you know about the situation? Did you read the Police Report? We know that four out of the five victims were his sisters, ranging in age from 4 years old - 12 years old. It is pretty common thought that the eldest was the one not assaulted. What reasoning do you believe that he had for so many victims and of such vast different ages? There seems a HUGE difference in this case. Sick.