How many dozens of Christians did creationism drive away this past hour?

[mindlight]

Yes, you can. For example, you can do repeated experiments where you can measure the position of ERV's in the human and chimps genomes. The repeated observations are that these genetic markers match the predictions made by the theory of evolution.



Observations that are interpretted by theories is exactly what science is.

I do not seem to able to edit my last post in this new format from my mobile.

But in answer to the above these observations are not uncontroversial and microevolutionary changes or adjustments to environment do not prove macroevolutionary ones.

 

[Loudmouth]

I do not seem to able to edit my last post in this new format from my mobile.

But in answer to the above these observations are not uncontroversial and microevolutionary changes or adjustments to environment do not prove macroevolutionary ones.

I am showing you the scientific and repeatable observations that are used to test the theory of evolution in accordance with the scientific method. How is that not science?

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you are supposed to repeat the hypothesis. You aren't. It is the observations that need to be repeatable, and genome sequences are easily repeatable. Measurements made on fossils are repeatable. Dating of rocks related to those fossils is repeatable. All of the evidence that supports the theory of evolution is repeatable.

 

[Xalith]

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Good words of our Lord do nicely to tell us why we are seeing these numbers, and this kind of data.

 

[dad]

Claims without evidence.

Pr 25:14 - Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

Answer this one Loudmouth

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

 

[sfs]

This myth gets bandied around a lot and has caused an unnecessary chasm to open up between true believers and honest scientists.

1) the churches whose memberships are declining in the USA mainly teach Theistic evolution while those that teach creationism are the ones actually growing. If someone leaves a Catholic or mainline Protestant church citing creationist teaching as the reason then they were not really listening. The real reason is more likely a lack of encounter with the reality of God in these churches.

At this point, evangelicals and mainline churches are both losing adherents; evangelicals are just losing them more slowly.

2) when it comes to the key points of difference between mainstream scientists and creationists the issue is not really about an antagonism against real science but rather about its out of scope usage in areas where it cannot authoritatively comment e.g the question of origins, the age of the universe , the nature of man and of consciousness.

Having said this Christians do need to do more both to endorse the scientific method as a useful tool on the practical level and also to combat the ignorance about what both scientists and theologians can authoritatively claim to be true.

Exactly how do you know what scientists can authoritatively claim? In order to make that judgment, you have to know more about science than scientists do. How did you come by this knowledge? Who gave you the authority to tell scientists what they can and cannot study?

 

[Hank]

Sort of contradicting the topic.

Christianity is growing, by about one per second. Some are borne into it or committing themselves to the Gospel. Currently the biggest growth is found in Africa and Asia.
I have this from this site
http://www.internationalbulletin.org/issues/2013-02/2013-02-067-sanneh.html

 

[bhsmte]

Sort of contradicting the topic.

Christianity is growing, by about one per second. Some are borne into it or committing themselves to the Gospel. Currently the biggest growth is found in Africa and Asia.
I have this from this site
http://www.internationalbulletin.org/issues/2013-02/2013-02-067-sanneh.html

Christianity is growing in mostly third world countries. In advanced countries, it has been continuing to decline for decades.

 

[Blue Wren]

Christianity is about what Jesus did to remove sin.
Creationism talks about where the sin came from.
So what point is there for Jesus if there is no sin?
What point is there for Christianity if the bible is wrong and there is no sin?

Do you truly believe, sin came from Adam & Eve eating a piece of forbidden fruit, after being manipulated by a talking snake, in the Garden of Eden?

 

[Adam81]

Many Christians love to tell other Christians that they "are not true Christians if they don't believe the universe is only 6000 years old" and close their mind to science because some people misinterpreted a few parables comparing Babylonian beliefs to God during the exile when the Jewish children were only being taught the Babylonian religion by their captors. This "not a true Christian" if not 100% like me is one of the main factors that rives people away from church, along with hypocrasy such as harmful gossip and judging of others.
Other things that many say you have to have to be a "true Christian" can be the ability to speak in tongues (but the modern nonsensical babbling, rather than the biblical version where you can communicate with someone with whom you don't share a language) and the desire to be hateful towards people they see as "sinners".

 

[Adam81]

If a Christian is driven away from Christianity by creationism, then he is not a christian after all. It is not a problem of creationist.

You get many so called Christians who tell others that if they do not believe in creationism, they they are not real Christians. People who face this enough leave a church. We know what the bible says about those who chase people away from Him, especially over a misinterpretation over parables that explain why God is better than Babylonian beliefs.

 

[Adam81]

What many people don't realise that the Catholic Church doesn't agree with creationism, but rather that God created an incalcuably old universe with infinitely more complexity than people once believed thousands of years ago. We know the world is not flat, is older than 6000 years, the heaven is not "above the sky" and the stars are not heaven showing through. We also know that the first part of Genesis has creation parables that explain God and were never intended to be literal history. The only country (as far as I am aware) where a large percetage of Christians believe in a young Earth is America.

And as for Revelations, we also know that it was never intended to be about foretelling the end of the world - it was an open letter to seven churches who were all going through hard times, and the letter contained parables and imagery for that audience to let them know that things would get better. Other parables that some people insist are literal truths are Job and Lazarus, despite what we know about the writers, their audience and what the writer wanted to teach them (something that all bible theologians are taught to discover so they can learn the true meaning of the texts).

 

[SteveB28]

I do not believe that the earth goes around the sun either.
it is a matter of choosing what is easiest.
from my map, all objects orbit around the center of mass of the solar system.
you could try including the other stars & galaxies, but you would find their effects minimal.

Astounding. Simply astounding.

That belief could cause a person to simply deny that which is before their own eyes. I have heard of such people, but this is the first time I have directly witnessed one.

Astounding.

 

[AV1611VET]

As many of us here know, Barna research* has shown that the denial of scientific data about reality is one of main reasons ex-Christians give for why they left Christianity. A major (perhaps biggest) source of this reality denial in churches is creationism.

So, in essence, they traded:

1. enlightenment
2. a taste of the Heavenly gift
3. a partaking of the Holy Ghost
4. a taste of the good word of God
5. a taste of the powers of the world to come

... for scientific data about reality?

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

 

[SteveB28]

Rainbows for real estate.

 

[Xalith]

You get many so called Christians who tell others that if they do not believe in creationism, they they are not real Christians. People who face this enough leave a church. We know what the bible says about those who chase people away from Him, especially over a misinterpretation over parables that explain why God is better than Babylonian beliefs.

The problem with this thinking, is thusly:

How can one refuse to believe the first few chapters of the Bible, and then claim to follow the very deity the Bible is about?

Okay, some people (including you) say that first few chapters of Genesis are "parables". There's a problem with this, and it lies in interpretation of the ancient Hebrew texts. From the Dead Sea Scrolls, we can ascertain that the Hebrew Texts were copied faithfully (they are very close to present-day Hebrew copies, faithfully reproduced). And from those who study/studied Hebrew, we know that they had certain ways of writing things -- they used different words and styles when they were being literal, and when they were being poetic or allegorical.

Genesis was written in the literal sense. This means the writer of Genesis meant 6 days, as in literally, 6 days. Christianity as its core believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. If you do not believe that the Bible is inerrant, then can you truly call yourself a Christian? If you do not believe the Bible or parts thereof (which calls itself the Word of God written by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit), then are you not calling God a liar?

Wherever parables are spoken in the Bible, the Bible makes it fairly clear that they are parables. Genesis does no such thing.

What do you think God feels about those who call Him a liar?
What do you think God feels towards those who only believe partially what Holy Scriptures say?
What do you think God feels about those who place their human reasoning above what God has told us?
What do you think God feels about the ability of man to suss out things that he never witnessed and cannot prove?

Isn't Christianity as its core about Faith in God? If you don't have Faith, then can you really call yourself a Christian? At what point do you start actually believing the Bible? Genesis 1 or Matthew 1? If you are willing to believe Matthew 1, but not Genesis 1, on the concept of "Science Says So", then what part of Science proves that Jesus died on the Cross to pay for our sin and resurrected three days after?

If you're willing to use Science to argue against Genesis, then what is stopping you from using Science to argue against Jesus?

And if you're willing to use Science to argue against Jesus, then why are you calling yourself a Christian?

You're either a Christian, or you are not. If you are a Christian, then you believe in Christ. If you believe in Christ, then you believe in the Father and the Holy Spirit. If you believe in the Father, and the Holy Spirit, then you also believe in what they tell you through Holy Scripture. If you believe in the Holy Scripture, then you believe in all of the Scriptures, Genesis included.

To disbelieve any of the Bible, or try to reason it away as "it's allegory" or "it's a parable" when no such thing is mentioned in the Bible (again, whenever allegory or parables are told, they are labeled as such), is to call God a liar. One of the main pillars of the Christian Faith is that God is Truth.

 

[joshuanazar]

This isn't a thread for that. If you are actually interested in having that discussion, start your own thread.

I thought the OP was about people leaving churches because they do not believe in creation. It automatically assumes that evolution is correct. Not only does my personal testimony show that the OP is an over generalization but that it is not based on the truth. But very well, if no one is interested in defending their belief then I will find another thread.

 

[Loudmouth]

The problem with this thinking, is thusly:

How can one refuse to believe the first few chapters of the Bible, and then claim to follow the very deity the Bible is about?

If you require a literal interpretation, how can you believe that the Bible is inspired by the Creator when it doesn't match up with the Creation?

 

[AV1611VET]

If you require a literal interpretation, how can you believe that the Bible is inspired by the Creator when it doesn't match up with the Creation?

By looking to see if the Creator said anything happened after He created His creation.

For instance, if He cursed the ground or not.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

 

[Loudmouth]

By looking to see if the Creator said anything happened after He created His creation.

For instance, if He cursed the ground or not.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

The Earth contains a 4.5 billion year history. If God's Creation is lying to me, then why shouldn't I assume the same thing about God's Word?

 

[AV1611VET]

The Earth contains a 4.5 billion year history.

Only on paper.

And a vague one at that.

Anything happen in 35,000,008 BC?