How many dozens of Christians did creationism drive away this past hour?

[Merlin]

Isn't that what you do?
I would assume that you are not a Geocentrist. IMHO, the prudent policy would be to assume that the error was made by the reader.

I do not believe that the earth goes around the sun either.
it is a matter of choosing what is easiest.
from my map, all objects orbit around the center of mass of the solar system.
you could try including the other stars & galaxies, but you would find their effects minimal.

 

[Loudmouth]

I do not believe that the earth goes around the sun either.
it is a matter of choosing what is easiest.
from my map, all objects orbit around the center of mass of the solar system.
you could try including the other stars & galaxies, but you would find their effects minimal.

So you believe that the Sun moving across the sky is due to a stationary Earth and a Sun that moves about the Earth? If you don't believe that, then you dont' believe the Bible, at least according to Cardinal Bellarmine.

 

[dad]

The reason I left church: those in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity have an absolute lack of curiosity about the universe, absolute certainty about everything they believe (you will never hear the words 'I could be wrong'), a magical worldview, renunciation of reason....

You get the picture.

I guess you didn't like church. I left it because it was boring and in another language. I also wanted to use the money my parents gave me for the collection for pin ball machines.

 

[dad]

I do not believe that the earth goes around the sun either.
it is a matter of choosing what is easiest.
from my map, all objects orbit around the center of mass of the solar system.
you could try including the other stars & galaxies, but you would find their effects minimal.

Paul didn't get healed of his big affliction. I would think that the healing primarily refers to two things. Healing of Salvation, and the world to come where we get new bodies. Yes, we can ask for healing here, but many or most will not get it apparently at least all the time. I would think it is almost the exception from experience. To get all hung up and gung ho on interpreting the bible verses on healing to mean we should get healed seems to me to lead to a condemnation attitude when people don't get healed.

 

[dad]

So you believe that the Sun moving across the sky is due to a stationary Earth and a Sun that moves about the Earth? If you don't believe that, then you dont' believe the Bible, at least according to Cardinal Bellarmine.

Bible says nothing of the sort.

 

[Merlin]

But of course Jesus contradicted himself:

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Since even Jesus could have been said to be on both sides of Old Testament laws one is forced to pick and choose which verses one believes in.

Everything was accomplished.
He did it on the cross.

 

[Loudmouth]

Bible says nothing of the sort.

The Bible doesn't say that decay rates were different in the past.

 

[dad]

The Bible doesn't say that decay rates were different in the past.

Right, or the future. Nor does it say they existed or were or will be the same. Why interject that into the thread?

Creation is a fact of Scripture and Jesus is the creator, and the Prophets angels and New Testament folks agree. Anyone claiming creation 'drives them away' is selling us a bridge.

 

[joshuanazar]

I am not sure how far off we got from the OP, but I was once very close to being an atheist because of church hypocrisy. However, I looked at the evidence and I found nothing to support evolution. The evidence that I did find pointed me back to God, but this isn't a thread arguing the existence of God but the validity of evolution. Can any give me proof, scriptural or scientific that evolution is real?

Now please, not all at once but give your most convincing piece of evidence first.

 

[crjmurray]

I am not sure how far off we got from the OP, but I was once very close to being an atheist because of church hypocrisy. However, I looked at the evidence and I found nothing to support evolution. The evidence that I did find pointed me back to God, but this isn't a thread arguing the existence of God but the validity of evolution. Can any give me proof, scriptural or scientific that evolution is real?

Now please, not all at once but give your most convincing piece of evidence first.

This isn't a thread for that. If you are actually interested in having that discussion, start your own thread.

 

[Loudmouth]

I am not sure how far off we got from the OP, but I was once very close to being an atheist because of church hypocrisy. However, I looked at the evidence and I found nothing to support evolution.

You may want to look again.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

If you want to discuss specific evidence, head on over to the ERV thread I have posted in.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/lines-of-evidence-part-1-ervs.7867271/

 

[Loudmouth]

Right, or the future. Nor does it say they existed or were or will be the same. Why interject that into the thread?

Creation is a fact of Scripture and Jesus is the creator, and the Prophets angels and New Testament folks agree. Anyone claiming creation 'drives them away' is selling us a bridge.

Claims without evidence.

 

[mindlight]

As many of us here know, Barna research* has shown that the denial of scientific data about reality is one of main reasons ex-Christians give for why they left Christianity. A major (perhaps biggest) source of this reality denial in churches is creationism.

Now we have data as to how many people are leaving Christianity in the US.

It turns out to be over 1% , or over 3 million people each year. That's nearly 10,000 each day, or 366 per hour - about a person every 10 seconds. In the time it took you to read this far, another 5 people left their church, never to return. Christians lose ground, 'nones' soar in new portrait of US religion - Religion News Service

Creationism is, of course, only part of why they leave. But how big a part, on average? If it's only 10%, then that's still about 40 people a day leaving due to creationism. If creationism makes up most of the reason, then that could be as high as hundreds of people a day.

What do you think? You can vote for your estimate.

In Christ-

Papias

*Barna data says that around 25% cite this as a reason they left - among teens. https://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/528-six-reasons-young-christians-leave-church

This myth gets bandied around a lot and has caused an unnecessary chasm to open up between true believers and honest scientists.

1) the churches whose memberships are declining in the USA mainly teach Theistic evolution while those that teach creationism are the ones actually growing. If someone leaves a Catholic or mainline Protestant church citing creationist teaching as the reason then they were not really listening. The real reason is more likely a lack of encounter with the reality of God in these churches.
2) when it comes to the key points of difference between mainstream scientists and creationists the issue is not really about an antagonism against real science but rather about its out of scope usage in areas where it cannot authoritatively comment e.g the question of origins, the age of the universe , the nature of man and of consciousness.

Having said this Christians do need to do more both to endorse the scientific method as a useful tool on the practical level and also to combat the ignorance about what both scientists and theologians can authoritatively claim to be true.

 

[Loudmouth]

This myth gets bandied around a lot and has caused an unnecessary chasm to open up between true believers and honest scientists.
1) the churches whose memberships are declining in the USA mainly teach Theistic evolution while those that teach creationism are the ones actually growing.

I was under the impression that creationism was on the decline across the globe. Is this not the case?

If someone leaves a Catholic or mainline Protestant church citing creationist teaching as the reason then they were not really listening. The real reason is more likely a lack of encounter with the reality of God in these churches.

Perhaps you aren't listening to the people leaving the church.

2) when it comes to the key points of difference between mainstream scientists and creationists the issue is not really about an antagonism against real science but rather about its out of scope usage in areas where it cannot authoritatively comment e.g the question of origins, the age of the universe , the nature of man and of consciousness.

Why can't we use the scientific method and evidence to test our hypotheses of what happened in the past? The problem seems to be that some christians don't want their beliefs questioned. If other christians see that their beliefs can not stand up to questioning, then they lose faith.

 

[mindlight]

I was under the impression that creationism was on the decline across the globe. Is this not the case?

Across the globe the true church continues to grow and the dominant understanding of the scriptures affirms a miraculous and unanalagous description of Creation.

Perhaps you aren't listening to the people leaving the church.

You appear to have misread my point. People are leaving churches that actually teach Theistic evolution and then citing creationism as the reason. That makes no sense.

Why can't we use the scientific method and evidence to test our hypotheses of what happened in the past? The problem seems to be that some christians don't want their beliefs questioned. If other christians see that their beliefs can not stand up to questioning, then they lose faith.

You cannot demonstrate macro evolution using repeatable scientific experiments. Rather you speculate on the basis of a series of scientific observations strung together in with an interpretative theory.

 

[Loudmouth]

Across the globe the true church continues to grow and the dominant understanding of the scriptures affirms a miraculous and unanalagous description of Creation.

What evidence do you have to back this claim up?

You appear to have misread my point. People are leaving churches that actually teach Theistic evolution and then citing creationism as the reason. That makes no sense.

You appear to be misreading the point in the opening post. No one is saying that everyone who leaves the church is doing so because of creationism. However, some people are citing creationism as the reason they left. It seems that you are turning a deaf ear to these people.

Also, where is your evidence for the correlation between creationism and increased church attendance?

You cannot demonstrate macro evolution using repeatable scientific experiments.

Yes, you can. For example, you can do repeated experiments where you can measure the position of ERV's in the human and chimps genomes. The repeated observations are that these genetic markers match the predictions made by the theory of evolution.

Rather you speculate on the basis of a series of scientific observations strung together in with an interpretative theory.

Observations that are interpretted by theories is exactly what science is.

 

[dad]

Claims without evidence.

Evidence is not what you decide you want to call something actually.

Now, for theistic evolutionists I have a question.

1) How did man evolve first and later woman as the bible says man was first?

 

[justlookinla]

Evidence is not what you decide you want to call something actually.

Now, for theistic evolutionists I have a question.

1) How did man evolve first and later woman as the bible says man was first?

Good question.

 

[mindlight]

What evidence do you have to back this claim up?

In the UK for example the Anglican church - the Liberals are dying out and the conservative Evangelicals are the fastest growing groups. Belief in creationism in the USA has remained broadly constant over the time period but mainline denominations are dying while conservative Evangelical and Pentecostal churches rise to take their place. Outside the global North the church has been growing overall and these guys have a more conservative reading of scripture and doctrine.

You appear to be misreading the point in the opening post. No one is saying that everyone who leaves the church is doing so because of creationism. However, some people are citing creationism as the reason they left. It seems that you are turning a deaf ear to these people.

Personally I have spoken to a great many people who rationalise their behaviour in these terms but the real reason is usually sin or a great pain. The attempt to justify using science is altooften an attempt to add authority and dignity to more ignoble practices.

The fact is that surveys of these sort count failures rather than successes and the overall pattern is that people leave churches that teach Theistic Evolution and join ones that teach creationism. Churches that teach creationism also lose people but gain more overall.

Also, where is your evidence for the correlation between creationism and increased church attendance?

Simple check the surveys on attendance or membership by denomination and then compare to actual teaching doctrine.


Yes, you can. For example, you can do repeated experiments where you can measure the position of ERV's in the human and chimps genomes. The repeated observations are that these genetic markers match the predictions made by the theory of evolution.



Observations that are interpretted by theories is exactly what science is.[/QUOTE]

 

[Loudmouth]

In the UK for example the Anglican church - the Liberals are dying out and the conservative Evangelicals are the fastest growing groups. Belief in creationism in the USA has remained broadly constant over the time period but mainline denominations are dying while conservative Evangelical and Pentecostal churches rise to take their place. Outside the global North the church has been growing overall and these guys have a more conservative reading of scripture and doctrine.

You are leaving out a lot of people.

Personally I have spoken to a great many people who rationalise their behaviour in these terms but the real reason is usually sin or a great pain. The attempt to justify using science is altooften an attempt to add authority and dignity to more ignoble practices.

Like I said, you are turning a deaf ear. You invent reasons that people are leaving instead of really listening to them.

The fact is that surveys of these sort count failures rather than successes and the overall pattern is that people leave churches that teach Theistic Evolution and join ones that teach creationism. Churches that teach creationism also lose people but gain more overall.

All we have is your say so.

Simple check the surveys on attendance or membership by denomination and then compare to actual teaching doctrine.

You are the one making the claim. You check it.