The Grace heresy teaching holiness is legalism.

[SaintJoeNow]

Basically, the Grace heresy implies we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments because God has forgiven our sins. The Biblical teaching on "Grace" is that is God-given ability to obey God. The result is of obeying God by His grace is holiness. The "Grace Heresy" denies the importance of willful obedience to God as a, or the, requirement for holiness, and it downplays God's demands in the Old and New Testaments for His people to be holy, which is a choice of action in obeying God. God demands that His people be holy in every word, thought, and action and when they are not He promises chastisement of a Father who loves His children and wants what is best for them. The grace heresy takes God's demands lightly and emphasized His love for us which temporarily tolerates our imperfections rather than His holiness which he wants us to share.

Believing a doctrine about holiness is not being holy. Being holy requires obedience to God, and God gives grace so we can obey Him.

By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.

Faith without works is dead.

The goodness of God leads to repentance. You didn't get saved until you repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. You didn't repent until you saw that you had been disobedient to God. To repent of our sins is to obey God. It's the beginning of knowing God's grace.

Grace is not a license to be frivolous when it comes to being holy.

 

[CFAntiseptic]

The goodness of God leads to repentance. You didn't get saved until you repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. You didn't repent until you saw that you had been disobedient to God. To repent of our sins is to obey God. It's the beginning of knowing God's grace.

Grace is not a license to be frivolous when it comes to being holy.

Amen, Brother Joe.

 

[Job8]

Amen, Brother Joe.

I'll second that.

 

[Hammster]

Basically, the Grace heresy implies we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments because God has forgiven our sins. The Biblical teaching on "Grace" is that is God-given ability to obey God. The result is of obeying God by His grace is holiness. The "Grace Heresy" denies the importance of willful obedience to God as a, or the, requirement for holiness, and it downplays God's demands in the Old and New Testaments for His people to be holy, which is a choice of action in obeying God. God demands that His people be holy in every word, thought, and action and when they are not He promises chastisement of a Father who loves His children and wants what is best for them. The grace heresy takes God's demands lightly and emphasized His love for us which temporarily tolerates our imperfections rather than His holiness which he wants us to share.

Believing a doctrine about holiness is not being holy. Being holy requires obedience to God, and God gives grace so we can obey Him.

By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.

Faith without works is dead.

The goodness of God leads to repentance. You didn't get saved until you repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. You didn't repent until you saw that you had been disobedient to God. To repent of our sins is to obey God. It's the beginning of knowing God's grace.

Grace is not a license to be frivolous when it comes to being holy.

Who teaches that grace is a license to sin?

 

[The Lorax]

Basically, the Grace heresy implies we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments because God has forgiven our sins. The Biblical teaching on "Grace" is that is God-given ability to obey God. The result is of obeying God by His grace is holiness. The "Grace Heresy" denies the importance of willful obedience to God as a, or the, requirement for holiness, and it downplays God's demands in the Old and New Testaments for His people to be holy, which is a choice of action in obeying God. God demands that His people be holy in every word, thought, and action and when they are not He promises chastisement of a Father who loves His children and wants what is best for them. The grace heresy takes God's demands lightly and emphasized His love for us which temporarily tolerates our imperfections rather than His holiness which he wants us to share.

Believing a doctrine about holiness is not being holy. Being holy requires obedience to God, and God gives grace so we can obey Him.

By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.

Faith without works is dead.

The goodness of God leads to repentance. You didn't get saved until you repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. You didn't repent until you saw that you had been disobedient to God. To repent of our sins is to obey God. It's the beginning of knowing God's grace.

Grace is not a license to be frivolous when it comes to being holy.

I've seen some of those you are warning about. But I think they are few and far between. Since I've been here I don't think I've seen any in the Baptist area.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that any righteousness we have is not from us. Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." Knowing this, we should understand that any good we do comes from Christ. It's our surrendering to His that conforms us to His image. And the only way we can truly do that is to spend time with Him.

 

[twin1954]

Basically, the Grace heresy implies we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments because God has forgiven our sins. The Biblical teaching on "Grace" is that is God-given ability to obey God. The result is of obeying God by His grace is holiness. The "Grace Heresy" denies the importance of willful obedience to God as a, or the, requirement for holiness, and it downplays God's demands in the Old and New Testaments for His people to be holy, which is a choice of action in obeying God. God demands that His people be holy in every word, thought, and action and when they are not He promises chastisement of a Father who loves His children and wants what is best for them. The grace heresy takes God's demands lightly and emphasized His love for us which temporarily tolerates our imperfections rather than His holiness which he wants us to share.

Believing a doctrine about holiness is not being holy. Being holy requires obedience to God, and God gives grace so we can obey Him.

By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God.

Faith without works is dead.

The goodness of God leads to repentance. You didn't get saved until you repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. You didn't repent until you saw that you had been disobedient to God. To repent of our sins is to obey God. It's the beginning of knowing God's grace.

Grace is not a license to be frivolous when it comes to being holy.

You are confusing holiness with obedience. Holiness knows nothing of degrees. You can't be almost holy. If there is the slightest un-holiness, sin, then you are not holy. Our holiness is Christ. He is all our holiness before God.

To claim that you can be holy by your obedience is to destroy true holiness and bring it down to a level that we can achieve by our acts.

Yet believers are obedient to the Lord. We naturally do that which is the Lord commands. Sheep act like sheep.

Still not all believers are at the same place on the journey of faith in this life. And not all have the same amount of light given them by the Spirit.

To require that believers act a certain way, especially if it is according to your idea of what holiness looks like, is legalism. It sounds good and makes you feel good when you act "holy" but it is nothing but satisfying the flesh and a denial of Christ as our holiness. It is no different than saying that Christ saves us but we make ourselves holy by our works.

Now none of what I have said condones willful sin and disobedience. There is no such thing as a "carnal Christian". But we recognize that believers fall and fail and struggle with sin daily.

Now if you want to get rid of your TV and not go to movies and act like you can rid yourself of the world that is in your heart then do so. But you have no right to place your burden of legalism on others. You answer to God and your conscience for yourself and haven't the authority to require that which the Lord does not of others.

The Lord doesn't require us to act a certain way or live a life of man's idea of holiness He equips us to do what He has put in our hands to do.

The Gospel is about forgiveness not about pointing fingers.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I've seen some of those you are warning about. But I think they are few and far between. Since I've been here I don't think I've seen any in the Baptist area.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that any righteousness we have is not from us. Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." Knowing this, we should understand that any good we do comes from Christ. It's our surrendering to His that conforms us to His image. And the only way we can truly do that is to spend time with Him.

What does this have to do with the Grace heresy? Ohhhhh, I get it, you are saying you are like Paul, unable to do right? So Paul was not obedient to God? is that it? You are saying Paul didn't know how to act right and therefore had no right to tell anybody else how to act, even though in hundreds of passages he gave specific directions on how Christians are supposed to act?

So when Paul was telling Christians how to act, he was teaching legalism and he was wrong in teaching legalism? Is that what you are trying to say? You do realize that Paul taught very specifically about every aspect of Christian behavior in everything they say, think, imagine, and do, right? So all of Paul's directives as obedience to God would be legalism? That's the twisted thinking common in The Grace Heresy, and I hope you are not stuck in it.

I'm really not clear about what you are trying to say. Can you be more specific? Am I misunderstanding you?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You are confusing holiness with obedience. Holiness knows nothing of degrees. You can't be almost holy. If there is the slightest un-holiness, sin, then you are not holy. Our holiness is Christ. He is all our holiness before God.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JOE:....."Our holiness is Christ"???? Chapter and verse please...I can give you hundreds of chapter and verse references which specifically command behavior in specific ways in the New as well as Old testament, and you are being unholy if you are being disobedient to those commands. The fact that Christ is in you does not excuse disobedience in the tiniest point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To claim that you can be holy by your obedience is to destroy true holiness and bring it down to a level that we can achieve by our acts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

JOE:......God commands that you be holy, and if you don't do it you won't be holy....it's simple logic. You be holy or you don't be holy, that's your choice.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yet believers are obedient to the Lord. We naturally do that which is the Lord commands. Sheep act like sheep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JOE:..........We naturally do what comes natural, and for sinners it is natural to sin. Have you stopped sinning? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Still not all believers are at the same place on the journey of faith in this life. And not all have the same amount of light given them by the Spirit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

JOE:.....This sounds like something out of a Spiritualism book>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To require that believers act a certain way, especially if it is according to your idea of what holiness looks like, is legalism. It sounds good and makes you feel good when you act "holy" but it is nothing but satisfying the flesh and a denial of Christ as our holiness. It is no different than saying that Christ saves us but we make ourselves holy by our works.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JOE....It sounds to me that when God says "be ye holy, for I am holy", you are saying "I'm holy too" instead of "Ok God, I'll be holy." It sounds to me like you are claiming you have arrived at holiness and you don't have to do anything to be holy. That is the Grace heresy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now none of what I have said condones willful sin and disobedience. There is no such thing as a "carnal Christian". But we recognize that believers fall and fail and struggle with sin daily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JOE:....No such thing as a "carnal Christian"???? So when Paul told Christians they were carnal, he was actually saying they are not Christians? Paul would be violating CF rules if he said carnal people cannot be Christians. I thought you said "Yet believers are obedient to the Lord. We naturally do that which is the Lord commands. Sheep act like sheep. If believers fall and fail and struggle with sin daily, then they are not being obedient to God, are they? How can you say they are being holy when they are being disobedient? That's the Grace Heresy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now if you want to get rid of your TV and not go to movies and act like you can rid yourself of the world that is in your heart then do so. But you have no right to place your burden of legalism on others. You answer to God and your conscience for yourself and haven't the authority to require that which the Lord does not of others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You don't want to obey God about how you spend your time? You want to make your own rules for your behavior and ignore the Biblical teaching about every word, thought, and action you engage in? You know the Bible is specific and every thought and imagination of every moment of your time, don't you? Please...to say it doesn't matter how you spend your time is not Biblical....That's would be the Grace Heresy. I'm trying to keep it Biblical here, not Bube Tube glorifying. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The Lord doesn't require us to act a certain way or live a life of man's idea of holiness He equips us to do what He has put in our hands to do.

The Gospel is about forgiveness not about pointing fingers.

In the quote above, I inserted my comments between lines of >>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<< I still don't know how people insert their comments in others' quotes so their comments are separated from the other poster's comment.

Thank you for giving an excellent example of the kind of thinking and teaching inherent in The Grace Heresy.

If you think you can have holiness without obedience, you are in the Grace heresy.


"The Lord doesn't require us to act a certain way or live a life of man's idea of holiness He equips us to do what He has put in our hands to do.".......This quote from you is a perfect example of the kind of thinking and teaching in the Grace Heresy. To say the Lord doesn't require us to act in a certain way is heretical. I can quote hundreds of passages in the New Testament and hundreds in the Old where the Lord directly, plainly, and specifically commands us to act in a certain way. For you to imply that is man's idea of holiness and not a Biblical teaching is heretical.

To imply that the Biblical commands which are specific about how we are supposed to talk, think, and act are legalism is to ignore the Biblical teaching of obedience to God as the requirement for being holy. God is holy with or without your obedience. Without your obedience, you are being unholy. You can be a saved Christian and be unholy in your behavior. Many Christians fall into this Grace Heresy kind of thinking which they use as an excuse for unholiness in their words, thoughts, and actions...even to the point where they talk directly contrary to what the Bible says about our how we are supposed to behave in every moment of time in obedience to God in every word, thought, and action. There is never an excuse for not being holy, and you can't be holy if you are not being obedient to God. That's the way it is.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Thank you Twin for giving an excellent example of the teaching and thinking promoted in The Grace Heresy. Would anybody else like to give another example of Grace Heresy teaching and thinking? Many fine and wonderful Christians like Twin have fallen into this kind of thinking and teaching. Any others fine Christians like Twin care to show their Grace Heresy concepts as Twin has?

 

[The Lorax]

What does this have to do with the Grace heresy? Ohhhhh, I get it, you are saying you are like Paul, unable to do right? So Paul was not obedient to God? is that it? You are saying Paul didn't know how to act right and therefore had no right to tell anybody else how to act, even though in hundreds of passages he gave specific directions on how Christians are supposed to act?

So when Paul was telling Christians how to act, he was teaching legalism and he was wrong in teaching legalism? Is that what you are trying to say? You do realize that Paul taught very specifically about every aspect of Christian behavior in everything they say, think, imagine, and do, right? So all of Paul's directives as obedience to God would be legalism? That's the twisted thinking common in The Grace Heresy, and I hope you are not stuck in it.

I'm really not clear about what you are trying to say. Can you be more specific? Am I misunderstanding you?

After reading through some of your replies, is there a reason why you respond in such a negative fashion when you disagree? It really makes having a discussion with you quite difficult. If you'd like me to be more clear, please ask but without the snark.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

After reading through some of your replies, is there a reason why you respond in such a negative fashion when you disagree? It really makes having a discussion with you quite difficult. If you'd like me to be more clear, please ask but without the snark.

Is that all you have to say? Your comments were unclear. If you are trying to teach the Grace heresy, for or against it, I don't know. It seems like you are trying to teach the Grace heresy and not seeing why the teaching is heretical. Correct me if I'm wrong without the snark.

It sounds like you are making a personal attack on me when I am trying to keep the discussion focused on The Grace Heresy which teaches that holiness is legalism.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Thank you for the Amens, Antiseptic and Job.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Who teaches that grace is a license to sin?

Who teaches that you can't obey God?

The answer to both questions would be Satan, no?

 

[seekingsolace]

Really those on the bandwagon of works, forget that it is God conforming you, not you. You are doing works on the basis of fear of hell, whereas the Bible clearly teaches to do things in love. Tell me, is helping someone because you feel you need to justify yourself a selfish motive? Where as helping someone because you love God, and want to help others, is that selfish? is a cheerful giver, one that feels obliged to do it? Can you declare your works holy before God? Do you think that you can add anything to the works Christ did on the cross?

You assume those who accept Grace as those who go on willfully sinning. That is not a characteristic of a believer within any denomination. It's your personal opinion structuring your view, rather than the plain facts. No true believer, wanting to remain in fellowship with God, will continue to sin purposely. Instead a true believer will submit to Gods will, seek diligently to understand Gods word, and act upon it.

Works are not the means to salvation, but the fruit of salvation. Preaching otherwise just negates the work of Christ. It is by Gods grace you are saved, it is by Gods grace you are being conformed to the image of Christ, nothing you do is without Gods influence.

Can you say everything you do is done in a completely clean conscience, that is entirely holy, conforming perfectly to Christ? If a person is saved a week before he dies, will his works be declared adequate? The underlying principle was Love, not fear, not doubt and disorder.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Really those on the bandwagon of works, forget that it is God conforming you, not you. You are doing works on the basis of fear of hell, whereas the Bible clearly teaches to do things in love. Tell me, is helping someone because you feel you need to justify yourself a selfish motive? Where as helping someone because you love God, and want to help others, is that selfish? is a cheerful giver, one that feels obliged to do it? Can you declare your works holy before God? Do you think that you can add anything to the works Christ did on the cross?

You assume those who accept Grace as those who go on willfully sinning. That is not a characteristic of a believer within any denomination. It's your personal opinion structuring your view, rather than the plain facts. No true believer, wanting to remain in fellowship with God, will continue to sin purposely. Instead a true believer will submit to Gods will, seek diligently to understand Gods word, and act upon it.

Works are not the means to salvation, but the fruit of salvation. Preaching otherwise just negates the work of Christ. It is by Gods grace you are saved, it is by Gods grace you are being conformed to the image of Christ, nothing you do is without Gods influence.

Can you say everything you do is done in a completely clean conscience, that is entirely holy, conforming perfectly to Christ? If a person is saved a week before he dies, will his works be declared adequate? The underlying principle was Love, not fear, not doubt and disorder.

NOW HOLD YOUR HORSES A MINUTE PLEASE!!!!!! WOOOAAAHHH NELLIE!!!!

I can't be bothered to read this post after I got to the point of the false accusation that I am afraid of Hell. I am saved from Hell. Sorry. You need to try with a different approach and try to not invent false accusations which cause me to stop reading your posts.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Please, anybody who wants to ague against the OP, try not to invent false accusations against me and try not to put words in my mouth. Simply respond to posts without implying they say things they do not say, and don't put words in my mouth.

Trying to imply the posts say things they do not say and then building an argument against things that were never said is ignoring the OP and it's not nice. Try to be nice and acknowledge the OP without implying it says things it does not say.

The OP I think is pretty clear and defined in saying what it says and not saying what it does not say

The Grace heresy teaches that holiness is legalism.

 

[seekingsolace]

I'm not quite sure how my reply was any different to the premise you base those who teach Grace are under the notion that;
1. "we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments because God has forgiven our sins" - Grace does not teach you are free to indulge in sinful ways, it does not deny that God does exact judgments, and is not to be made a fool, additionally sinning brings you out of fellowship with God.
2. "The "Grace Heresy" denies the importance of willful obedience to God" - Nope, willful obedience is part of being a true believer.
3. "it downplays God's demands in the Old and New Testaments for His people to be holy" - Nor does it negate any of the moral principles in both testaments.
4. "God demands that His people be holy in every word, thought, and action" - I think you will struggle to find any person on earth who meets this criteria, hence progressive sanctification until redemption.
5. "he grace heresy takes God's demands lightly" - No it does not, in fact it teaches that Gods goodness abounds more than human arrogance and will.
6. "Grace is not a license to be frivolous when it comes to being holy." - Another assumption that is entirely unfounded, no true believer will willfully oppose God. Nor does Grace present this notion.

 

[The Lorax]

Is that all you have to say? Your comments were unclear. If you are trying to teach the Grace heresy, for or against it, I don't know. It seems like you are trying to teach the Grace heresy and not seeing why the teaching is heretical. Correct me if I'm wrong without the snark.

It sounds like you are making a personal attack on me when I am trying to keep the discussion focused on The Grace Heresy which teaches that holiness is legalism.

I'm glad to see that you edited your answer.

The only grace heresy I see would be if someone said that because they are saved, they are free to sin. Actually, because of grace we are free to not sin. Also because of grace, we are not condemned if we do sin.

The works we do are good works. We do then not to make us holy. We do them because they are prepared for us and we want to be pleasing to our Father. The way you put things is like adding a heavy yoke. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for the same thing.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I'm not quite sure how my reply was any different to the premise you base those who teach Grace are under the notion that;
1. "we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments because God has forgiven our sins" -

I did not say this, the Bible does not say this, is this your final answer?

Where does the Bible say we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments because God has forgiven our sins?

The Grace heresy teaches that, the Bible does not. The fact that our sins are forgiven does not mean we have the freedom to indulge in worldly pleasures and entertainments. Isn't a strip club a worldly pleasure and entertainment, and you are going to try to tell me you can be holy while you go to a strip club? Where do you draw the line for what is holiness in obedience to God and what is unholiness in worldly pleasures?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I'm glad to see that you edited your answer.

The only grace heresy I see would be if someone said that because they are saved, they are free to sin. Actually, because of grace we are free to not sin. Also because of grace, we are not condemned if we do sin.

The works we do are good works. We do then not to make us holy. We do them because they are prepared for us and we want to be pleasing to our Father. The way you put things is like adding a heavy yoke. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for the same thing.

Saying ungodly entertainments are not holy is putting a heavy yoke on you? You might as well burn your Bible if that's the way you feel about it. The Bible has hundreds of passages teaching holiness if everything we say, think, and do. If you don't like it, that's between you and God. The Bible has hundreds of passages.....Old and New Testament.....which very specifically command us to act in certain ways in everything we say, think and do. If we are disobedient to those things, we are not being holy. If you make excuses for not being obedient to God, you are living in the Grace heresy.