Theistic evolutionists: was Adam a specific person?

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Hedrick
I think that the Creation story might be myth, it is written in a mythic style
of course "myth" does not mean untrue, a myth is a way to tell truths in a way we can understand
but Moses and the Exodus are clearly written as history

but then again, I have a lot of Creationist sympathies

Certainly. Myth is a good starting place.
One has to bathe ones thinking about such ancient sacred texts, in the mindset and world view of the people who lived then.
We have to be so careful to impose our Modern day thinking upon them, as well as in many cases the strictly Gentile way of reasoning things out.

I cannot remember C.S. Lewis' exact words when he reflected on the meaning of the Garden of Eden, but it was certainly along the lines that there is far more there than a simply literal telling of a story.

We all have our questions about where our morality came from, with scientists (of all kinds and species ) foisting their worldviews upon the collective consciousness -- but the questions do not retire and seeing the Bible has a lot to say about those -- we might be wise to heed the account, without scientific skylarking.

 

[juvenissun]

I'm curious if those of you with this perspective could go into more detail about it. In Romans 5:14, Paul says that "death reigned from Adam to Moses". As far as I know, all Christians consider Moses to have been a specific historical person. But if Paul wasn't meaning to suggest that about Adam, how can his statement "death reigned from Adam to Moses" have any meaning?

I don't think there could be ANY reason for Paul to take Adam as a figurative person. WHY would he want to do that? WHAT could cause him to think that way? For ALL Jewish people 2000 years ago, Adam was a REAL person. There is not a single verse in the OT or NT (or in ANY other literature of that time) which says or implies otherwise.

Paul was not a TE.

 

[Aggie]

I don't think that Neanderthals interbred with Humans. I remember a study that showed they didn't.

There has been a lot of debate in both directions about this, but it's become pretty well-established with the completion of the Neanderthal genome project, which found that human populations in Europe and Asia haved 1-4% Neanderthal DNA. The research about this is summarized in the Wikipedia article I linked to in my OP.

 

[Aldebaran]

I have to say that I'm really amazed how we have to talk about whether something in the bible was real or allegorical. I've heard people say the Flood was just a story put in to fill in where genealogical were lost. There are those who think Adam and Eve was just a myth. Now people think Adam (who was written about as an actual person in every possible way) was just a representation of something else.

When are we going to agree that God's Word actually means what it says?

 

[hedrick]

I have to say that I'm really amazed how we have to talk about whether something in the bible was real or allegorical. I've heard people say the Flood was just a story put in to fill in where genealogical were lost. There are those who think Adam and Eve was just a myth. Now people think Adam (who was written about as an actual person in every possible way) was just a representation of something else.

When are we going to agree that God's Word actually means what it says?

It's not going to happen. Until the 16th Cent, people believed in the "two books" theory, where we could learn from both the book of Scripture and the book of nature. Many of us still accept that approach. Even in the 16th Cent not all Protestants thought we could dismiss what we know of nature to fit our understanding of Scripture. Calvin said that Scripture often described things as they appear, not as science understands it, to better communicate with ordinary people.

I doubt that this approach is going to vanish, much as you might prefer it to.

 

[Rhamiel]

There has been a lot of debate in both directions about this, but it's become pretty well-established with the completion of the Neanderthal genome project, which found that human populations in Europe and Asia haved 1-4% Neanderthal DNA. The research about this is summarized in the Wikipedia article I linked to in my OP.

hmm, I wonder if this plays into why Europe and Asia developed into such mighty cultures?
sorry, off topic, just a random thought

 

[Aldebaran]

It's not going to happen. Until the 16th Cent, people believed in the "two books" theory, where we could learn from both the book of Scripture and the book of nature. Many of us still accept that approach. Even in the 16th Cent not all Protestants thought we could dismiss what we know of nature to fit our understanding of Scripture. Calvin said that Scripture often described things as they appear, not as science understands it, to better communicate with ordinary people.

I doubt that this approach is going to vanish, much as you might prefer it to.

I always thought God's Word was what we are to meditate on and bury ourselves in so that we can know what God's will is for us. Is it now something to doubt?

 

[Armoured]

There's something I'm curious about this forum's Christian theistic evolutionists: do you consider Adam to have been a specific person? As I understand it, there are two points of view about this, and I'm curious which of the two is more popular.

The first view is that Adam was not a specific person, and instead is meant as a metaphor for all of humanity. This is the view presented in Peter Enns' book The Evolution of Adam. The shortcoming of this view is that Paul clearly refers to Adam as having been a specific person in a few of his epistles, especially in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. If one accepts this view about Adam, it seems necessary to say either that Paul was mistaken about the meaning of this part of Genesis, or that he used an argument that he didn't personally believe because he felt it would be persuasive to his audience (which is Enns' view).

The second view is that Adam and Eve were specific people, but were descended from earlier hominids, and that they were the first primitive humans to be subject to God's laws. Tim Keller argues for that view in this paper. The shortcoming of this view is that seems to clash with what we know about human history and genetics. There's no point in human history when our ancestors consisted of a single pair of individuals, so Adam and Even would've had to not be the only people alive at the time. A more difficult issue is the genetic evidence that humans interbred with Neanderthals, and that Neanderthal DNA makes up a few percent of the human genome. Would humans and Neanderthals both be descended from Adam and Eve (meaning Adam and Eve were Homo heidelbergensis or something more primitive), or did Adam and Eve's descendants interbreed with a species that God considered non-human?

My goal for raising this question is not to criticize Christian theistic evolutionists; I'm genuinely curious how they answer it. Also note that although I know this topic would probably be better suited for Origins Theology, in my understanding that section is Christians-only, so as a Deist I can only ask this question here rather than there.

I don't believe so. Frankly, I believe the whole Garden of Eden story is an allegory about changing lifestyles between hunter gatherer lifestyle (the garden) to settled agrarian/pastoral lifestyle (living by sweat of the brow), that was passed down orally over so many generations that history became misremembered myth, as it does.

 

[sfs]

I have to say that I'm really amazed how we have to talk about whether something in the bible was real or allegorical. I've heard people say the Flood was just a story put in to fill in where genealogical were lost. There are those who think Adam and Eve was just a myth. Now people think Adam (who was written about as an actual person in every possible way) was just a representation of something else.

When are we going to agree that God's Word actually means what it says?

Why on Earth would we suddenly start now? For as long as there have been Christians, they've been reading the Bible in non-intuitive and creative ways. And Christians weren't the first: Jews were doing similar things before Jesus was born. Paul does it, the gospel writers do it, the church Fathers do it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

There has been a lot of debate in both directions about this, but it's become pretty well-established with the completion of the Neanderthal genome project, which found that human populations in Europe and Asia haved 1-4% Neanderthal DNA. The research about this is summarized in the Wikipedia article I linked to in my OP.

I see, I will look at it. Are they sure it was not from common ancestry rather than interbreeding?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I see, I will look at it. Are they sure it was not from common ancestry rather than interbreeding?

Homo Sapiens spread out from Africa, and in Africa there are populations that still lack that Neanderthal DNA. The Neanderthal DNA was acquired in populations of Homo Sapiens that left Africa.

 

[juvenissun]

I always thought God's Word was what we are to meditate on and bury ourselves in so that we can know what God's will is for us. Is it now something to doubt?

The story of Adam and Eve is playing again and again. This really says that we are living in a world controlled by Evil.

 

[juvenissun]

Why on Earth would we suddenly start now? For as long as there have been Christians, they've been reading the Bible in non-intuitive and creative ways. And Christians weren't the first: Jews were doing similar things before Jesus was born. Paul does it, the gospel writers do it, the church Fathers do it.

Where in the Bible does Paul read the story of Adam and Eve "creatively"?

 

[ivanc0]

There's something I'm curious about this forum's Christian theistic evolutionists: do you consider Adam to have been a specific person? As I understand it, there are two points of view about this, and I'm curious which of the two is more popular.

The first view is that Adam was not a specific person, and instead is meant as a metaphor for all of humanity. This is the view presented in Peter Enns' book ...... The shortcoming of this view is that Paul clearly refers to Adam as having been a specific person in a few of his epistles, especially in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. If one accepts this view about Adam, it seems necessary to say either that Paul was mistaken about the meaning of this part of Genesis, or that he used an argument that he didn't personally believe because he felt it would be persuasive to his audience (which is Enns' view).

The second view is that Adam and Eve were specific people, but were descended from earlier hominids, and that they were the first primitive humans to be subject to God's laws. Tim Keller argues for that view in ,,,,,. The shortcoming of this view is that seems to clash with what we know about human history and genetics. There's no point in human history when our ancestors consisted of a single pair of individuals, so Adam and Even would've had to not be the only people alive at the time. A more difficult issue is the genetic evidence that human interbred with neandentals, and that Neanderthal DNA makes up a few percent of the human genome. Would humans and Neanderthals both be descended from Adam and Eve (meaning Adam and Eve were Homo heidelbergensis or something more primitive), or did Adam and Eve's descendants interbreed with a species that God considered non-human?

My goal for raising this question is not to criticize Christian theistic evolutionists; I'm genuinely curious how they answer it. Also note that although I know this topic would probably be better suited for ......., in my understanding that section is Christians-only, so as a Deist I can only ask this question here rather than there.

I believe God created a Cell and look after it until humans were developed.
Adam, Eve, Noa, etc they are just a Legend, with moral teachings but a legend.

God looks for the spiritual development of all humans, not only Israel, and look after humans in different ways, for Us God has give us Christ to be our saviour and model of Love.

I know the biblical orthodox will be outraged on my blasphemy, but this is the only way I could conciliate truth. and a loving God.

 

[Rhamiel]

The story of Adam and Eve is playing again and again. This really says that we are living in a world controlled by Evil.

very good point, so many people think that things would be better if Adam and Eve never sinned
but they forget how many times they choose to go against Gods laws every day

Where in the Bible does Paul read the story of Adam and Eve "creatively"?

I do not think that they were specifically talking about the Adam and Eve story for that, but really, if you look at it, the Jews were expecting the Messiah to be a great military commander, an earthly king, a mighty prophet, but only human
instead the messiah was an itinerant rabbi who was fully God and fully Human
so in that respect, it was a kind of "creative" interpretation

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Where in the Bible does Paul read the story of Adam and Eve "creatively"?

I suspect that the word 'non-intuitive' is either non-random or a deliberate red herring.

It is up to us to shake off the dust on the ancients and read the text in the full light of the revelation of both books as one.
To hang onto old ideas, simply for the basis of adhering to a particular creed, catechism or confession (Calvin) is simply to poke out the wrong eye.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

"creative" interpretation

The shut-minded approach to both Science & Religion, quickly extinguish the candle of word revelation. (therein lies the interpretation of Adam and Eve's apostasy)

 

[sfs]

Where in the Bible does Paul read the story of Adam and Eve "creatively"?

I didn't say he did. His creative readings are more obvious in other places. For example, in I Corinthians 9:9-10 ("Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain"), he simply rejects the obvious meaning of the command and replaces it with something wholly foreign to the original text. Or in I Corinthians 10:4 ("for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ") he adopts a traditional Jewish interpretation of the wilderness wandering, in which there was a portable rock that followed the people of Israel around, giving them water -- something that's not at all present in the Biblical text -- and then spiritualizes that interpretation, making the rock to be Jesus (whether literally or allegorically is not clear).

But in fact he does treat Adam and Eve (or at least Adam) quite creatively. The whole idea that all humans are sinful because of Adam's sin seems to be Paul's invention. It's not in the Genesis account, and it doesn't appear elsewhere in other Jewish writings (including the Old Testament, where Adam is almost completely absent after the early chapters of Genesis).

 

[Shemjaza]

I see, I will look at it. Are they sure it was not from common ancestry rather than interbreeding?

I read that different groups of modern humans having differing amounts of Neanderthal DNA is good evidence that it was re-introduced into the population rather then something left over from the earlier common ancestor.

 

[dad]

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, - See more at: 14 Bible verses about Depravity Of Man

But in fact he does treat Adam and Eve (or at least Adam) quite creatively. The whole idea that all humans are sinful because of Adam's sin seems to be Paul's invention. It's not in the Genesis account, and it doesn't appear elsewhere in other Jewish writings (including the Old Testament, where Adam is almost completely absent after the early chapters of Genesis).

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, - See more at: 14 Bible verses about Depravity Of Man

Mark 7:21 Verse Concepts

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
- See more at: 14 Bible verses about Depravity Of Man
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


Ps 51: 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ecc 7: 20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not

Those are a few from elsewhere that show sin is inherited and universal in man.


"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, - See more at: 14 Bible verses about Depravity Of Man
Mark 7:21 Verse Concepts

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
- See more at: 14 Bible verses about Depravity Of Man