Schools that teach creationism in the science class.

[bhsmte]

Frankly, I don't think you guys can take what you dish out.

People dish different things and I expect some to have differing appetites for what they choose.

Fun stuff to watch in action.

 

[AV1611VET]

People dish different things and I expect some to have differing appetites for what they choose.

Fun stuff to watch in action.

Well ... either they can't take what they dish out, or it's fake indignation.

If Christian saints have no legal way of "fighting back," then this country has gone to the dogs.

 

[bhsmte]

Well ... either they can't take what they dish out, or it's fake indignation.

If Christian saints have no legal way of "fighting back," then this country has gone to the dogs.

I know, those poor, poor Christian saints.

 

[sandybay]

I realize that, but the answer is not to stiffle student activity in the science classroom. If one is restricted to only asking approved questions, science will calcify.

Students will never tire of asking questions and there is no need to worry about science calcifying, if I were you what I would worry about is creationism disappearing because the information explosion is killing it.

 

[AV1611VET]

I know, those poor, poor Christian saints.

We'll see who stays poor after the votes are counted.

 

[Resha Caner]

Students will never tire of asking questions and there is no need to worry about science calcifying, if I were you what I would worry about is creationism disappearing because the information explosion is killing it.

Apparently you've never been in a classroom where the students are terrified to ask a question.

And whether or not creationism disappears doesn't concern me.

 

[bhsmte]

We'll see who stays poor after the votes are counted.

Alright then.

 

[bhsmte]

Apparently you've never been in a classroom where the students are terrified to ask a question.

And whether or not creationism disappears doesn't concern me.

In general, why would a student be terrified to ask a question?

I am quite certain, some students are terrified to ask questions, but many of those reasons are likely personally driven, as opposed to externally driven.

 

[sandybay]

Apparently you've never been in a classroom where the students are terrified to ask a question.

And whether or not creationism disappears doesn't concern me.

You are right I have never been in an American classroom, are you sure you are not talking about a science classroom where the students are asking religious questions? questions like, "where does God fit in?"

 

[Resha Caner]

In general, why would a student be terrified to ask a question?

Let's just pick some random example. I don't have the slightest idea who this might have experienced this.

Let's say you're young and new to university life and you have to take an engineering materials course. Let's say the professor you happen to get is a former Jew who escaped Nazi Germany and served as a freedom fighter in Israel before taking a teaching job in the U.S. And let's say this professor goes through the class one student at a time asking them questions he knows they can't answer, and then berating each one for a good 5-10 minutes about how stupid they are, how they'll never graduate, and how he despises how fat, stupid, and lazy Americans are. Then let's say one of these students goes to his advisor to complain about this tenured professor, and is told the professor is a world-recognized and respected expert in his field and the student is lucky to be in his class. The student then asks to change to a different professor, and his request is denied.

When the student returns to class, how likely is he to ask questions?

How is that relevant to evolution? Well, let's say another professor from this same university goes on the record with the media - actually participates in public debates on evolution - and says he intentionally baits students into evolution debates so he has a reason to flunk those who disagree with him - even though he's not a biology professor.

And let's say further that there was a national news story about students being sent into an astronomy classroom to bait a known Christian professor with questions about evolution - and coincidentally after he answered he was denied tenure.

How free do you think students felt at that university to ask questions about evolution?

I am quite certain, some students are terrified to ask questions, but many of those reasons are likely personally driven, as opposed to externally driven.

Sure, sometimes it's the student. But to think it's never the teacher is naive.

 

[bhsmte]

You are right I have never been in an American classroom, are you sure you are not talking about a science classroom where the students are asking religious questions? questions like, "where does God fit into it?"

I am sure there have been kids that have asked that question in biology class, but I can see why most wouldn't, because they would have the intellect to know it is a religious theology question, that science does not address.

If one wants to believe in biblical creationism, no one is stopping them. But, that is something that is not addressed in science class, because science has no way to address it. Best to refer to one's bible, church or pastor for answers on biblical creationism.

 

[Resha Caner]

You are right I have never been in an American classroom, are you sure you are not talking about a science classroom where the students are asking religious questions? questions like, "where does God fit in?"

I'm sure. Read my latest reply to bhsmte. Earlier I mentioned being lectured by my chemistry teacher regarding how Christians can never become scientists. I have no idea what provoked him.

When I told my roommate (an evangelical Christian) about it afterward, he suggested I file a complaint. I chickened out and didn't do it. And the teacher only did it that one time, so I let it drop. But not exactly a friendly environment for Christians.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm sure. Read my latest reply to bhsmte. Earlier I mentioned being lectured by my chemistry teacher regarding how Christians can never become scientists. I have no idea what provoked him.

When I told my roommate (an evangelical Christian) about it afterward, he suggested I file a complaint. I chickened out and didn't do it. And the teacher only did it that one time, so I let it drop. But not exactly a friendly environment for Christians.

Because of your personal experience, does not mean that it is commonplace.

Sure, there are goofballs that will think a Christian could not be a scientist, but they have no clue and that is obvious.

 

[bhsmte]

Sure, sometimes it's the student. But to think it's never the teacher is naive

I never stated it was only the student and never the teacher.

Now, your examples are what they are and I am sure, there are environments created by some professors as you state. We are dealing with human beings here, not robots and this will happen.

I could also say, how comfortable would a student in a private Christian school be, asking a question about evolution, if the school is a conservative Christian school, that only believes in biblical creationism, but the student has a genuine interest in learning science?

 

[Resha Caner]

Because of your personal experience, does not mean that it is commonplace.

Sure there are white cops that shoot black men, but it's not commonplace. I don't understand why they feel discriminated against ...

You're absolutely right. It was a very small minority of professors that engaged in such activity. Most of the professors I had there were excellent - warm, caring people. But that's irrelevant. As has been noted in this thread several times, the minority is loud and aggressive.

My father-in-law grew up in Nazi Germany. One time while visiting relatives in Germany there was a news story about skinheads. I made a comment about how they were in a different city and there were only a few of them. My father-in-law replied, "It only takes one."

 

[Resha Caner]

I could also say, how comfortable would a student in a private Christian school be, asking a question about evolution, if the school is a conservative Christian school, that only believes in biblical creationism, but the student has a genuine interest in learning science?

I'm sure they would be made uncomfortable. If they were bullied because of it, or if the teacher threatened action because they asked the question, I would be embarassed by such action from my fellow Christians.

I wouldn't try to excuse it as you seem to be doing.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm sure they would be made uncomfortable. If they were bullied because of it, or if the teacher threatened action because they asked the question, I would be embarassed by such action from my fellow Christians.

I wouldn't try to excuse it as you seem to be doing.

I am not excusing it, I am stating what expectations are when you get into something.

The conservative Christian school is going to teach what you know they are going to teach and if the student wants to learn other things, they would have to rely on other sources to do so. Clearly, the school or teacher should not make a student feel uncomfortable, for asking the question.

Same goes for the student that has been taught biblical creationism and is in a public school biology class. The teacher should not make the student feel uncomfortable for asking the question, but should simply explain how those questions, are not addressed in biology class.

 

[Resha Caner]

I am not excusing it, I am stating what expectations are when you get into something.

I would absolutely agree that someone who goes against an established system must be prepared for what comes next.

 

[Oncedeceived]

This is what one Professor does about it, he gives the "talk".

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpres...-on-the-incompatibility-of-science-and-faith/

I CONCLUDE The Talk by saying that, although they don’t have to discard their religion in order to inform themselves about biology (or even to pass my course), if they insist on retaining and respecting both, they will have to undertake some challenging mental gymnastic routines. And while I respect their beliefs, the entire point of The Talk is to make clear that, at least for this biologist, it is no longer acceptable for science to be the one doing those routines, as Professor Gould and noma have insisted we do.

 

[Loudmouth]

I would absolutely agree that someone who goes against an established system must be prepared for what comes next.

When someone is wrong and they insist on being wrong, they should also be prepared for what comes next.