Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[MoreCoffee]

Here is a point I found mysterious - I am quoting the CCC -- Catholics should be joyful!!

I don't see why I get any Catholic complaints on this - I quote your Commentary, your Popes, your CCC... You should be paying me.

...

I like the CCC, When posts quote it accurately it is good. Truncated quotes and selective quotes can be misleading. Perhaps the reaction to the quotes in your posts is related to their selectivity and truncation.

 

[BobRyan]

as noted --

So then back to the OP

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

SDA claim to use the Catechism to show what Catholics believe. Are they telling the truth about what Catholics believe? It's should obvious to them how Sunday is not kept as a 24hr Sabbath as describe in the law.
​

The SDA argument is not that the RCC is pristine in keeping it's bent-sabbath - it is that it "bent the Sabbath" to point it to week day 1 - and the CCC is not slow in pointing to that fact.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the sabbath and instituted the Lord's day.

 

[BobRyan]

I like the CCC, When posts quote it accurately it is good. Truncated quotes and selective quotes can be misleading. Perhaps the reaction to the quotes in your posts is related to their selectivity and truncation.

I have highlighted your own posts showing where even you quote the CCC where it makes my point.

1. Ten commandments STILL binding on the saints - ALL TEN not a "nine commandment claim" in the CCC.

2. Lord's Day -- Saturday - the Sabbath as given by God in the actual Bible - then later BENT to point to week -day-1 by the church.

3. Sabbath - Saturday - in the OT as given by God - then later obedience to that commandment fulfilled/change/bent so that continued regular week-day-1 worship now fulfills that still-binding still-remaining moral obligation.

All the complaints notwithstanding these points stand without refutation. CCC proves it. Pope John Paul II proves it. Catholic Commentary proves it.

How "nice" then that someone would start a thread on this very point -- a gift!!

 

[BobRyan]

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the sabbath and instituted the Lord's day.

A Bible text then??? Is that what you want to propose.

"I the Lord Jesus am your Sabbath and have bent the Lord's day from the Sabbath SEVENTH day to now point to week-day-1 for week-day-1 is now the Lord's Day fulfilling the Sabbath Commandment moral obligation that is still-binding on all the saints. "??

I look forward to your finding such a text..

Popcorn in hand... this should be good.

Because on THIS point - I think all will see that Leo Trese's point about " no Bible text for this change" holds up to a close review of scripture.

[FONT=&quot](from "The Faith Explained" page 243[/FONT][FONT=&quot].))

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]we know that in the O.T it was the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the week - the Sabbath day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- which was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]observed as the Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. that was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the law as God gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]church had the right to make such a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is evident[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday.[/FONT][FONT=&quot].that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Lord's day is the celebration of the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week and the following passages testify to that seminal event.

1. Matthew 28:1 After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
   
2. Mark 16:9 ( When he had risen, early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.
   
3. Luke 24:1-6 But at daybreak on the first day of the week they took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb; 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were puzzling over this, behold, two men in dazzling garments appeared to them. 5 They were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground. They said to them, Why do you seek the living one among the dead? 6 He is not here, but he has been raised. Remember what he said to you while he was still in Galilee,
   
4. John 20:1 On the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala came to the tomb early in the morning, while it was still dark, and saw the stone removed from the tomb.

Other passages report the disciples gathering on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lord's supper calling it "to break bread"

1. John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, Peace be with you.
   
2. Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight.

 

[BobRyan]

The Lord's day is the celebration of the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week

That is an interesting opinion.


2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep The Sabbath day."94




God declares the Sabbath to be the Lord's Day in that 2170 example - taken from Deut 5. And of course we find that same thing in Isaiah 58 - the Sabbath, the Lord's Day.



Keeping the Sabbath

13 “If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,


Everyone agrees that the resurrection of Christ takes place on "week-day-1".

=========================================

1. Matthew 28:1 After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
2. Mark 16:9 ( When he had risen, early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.
3. Luke 24:1-6 But at daybreak on the first day of the week they took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb; 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were puzzling over this, behold, two men in dazzling garments appeared to them. 5 They were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground. They said to them, Why do you seek the living one among the dead? 6 He is not here, but he has been raised. Remember what he said to you while he was still in Galilee,
4. John 20:1 On the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala came to the tomb early in the morning, while it was still dark, and saw the stone removed from the tomb.

Other passages report the disciples gathering on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lord's supper calling it "to break bread"

1. John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, Peace be with you.
2. Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is an interesting opinion.

2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep The Sabbath day."
...

The quote above is an example of misuse of the CCC by partial quotation out of context. The section in which section 2170 appears is not about the Lord's day but the Sabbath as a properly contextual quote would show.

I. The Sabbath Day

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."

2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

The Lord's day is the celebration of the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week​

​

That is an interesting opinion.


2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep The Sabbath day."94




God declares the Sabbath to be the Lord's Day in that 2170 example - taken from Deut 5. And of course we find that same thing in Isaiah 58 - the Sabbath, the Lord's Day.



Keeping the Sabbath

13 “If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,


Everyone agrees that the resurrection of Christ takes place on "week-day-1".​

Hint: that is a FULL quote of 2170 which shows the Lord's Day origin even by CCC standards PRIOR to its being the "bent" Lord's day is in keeping with the Sabbath in unbent form.

so they simply admit to its Saturday Sabbath Bible origin - then "bend it anyway" to point it to week-day-1 the RCC admit

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

The quote above is an example of misuse of the CCC by partial quotation out of context.
​

No it is not - I have repeatedly provided the same context you just posted "again" and n the post with the pointed quote - both are on this thread and BOTH show that the RCC admits to the origin of the Lord's Day in the Sabbath - the seventh day -- Saturday ... in its "unbent" form.

Then they present it in its "bent form" as if to point it to week day 1, in bent form.

Exactly as Leo Trese describes.

So also we see it in the CCC - showing its unbent form.. and then its bent form.

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

The section in which section 2170 appears is not about the Lord's day but the Sabbath as a properly contextual quote would show.

I. The Sabbath Day

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."

2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."
​

Which I already provided - in full just as you have listed it here "again".

in Post #78 and also in post #80

I simply move on "to the point" -- rather than continually repeat it. (As we both know full well)

 

[BobRyan]

The OP denies the "Change" element to our discussion - it denies the before-then-after picture of the Lord's Day in harmony with the seventh day Saturday Sabbath (THE BEFORE PICTURE)

That then goes to the AFTER PICTURE - where the moral obligation to the Sabbath Commandment is no longer fulfilled by Saturday Sabbath worship - but rather is BENT to point to week-day 1 as the fulfillment of that moral obligation to the continued commandment - and the LORD's Day also BENT to point to week-day-1 so that no longer does the LORD's Day call mankind to honor the 7th day - but rather now it calls mankind to Sunday worship.



This was pointed out here --


=====================================================

as noted --

So then back to the OP

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

SDA claim to use the Catechism to show what Catholics believe. Are they telling the truth about what Catholics believe? It's should obvious to them how Sunday is not kept as a 24hr Sabbath as describe in the law.
​

The SDA argument is not that the RCC is pristine in keeping it's bent-sabbath - it is that it "bent the Sabbath" to point it to week day 1 - and the CCC is not slow in pointing to that fact.

I like the CCC, When posts quote it accurately it is good. Truncated quotes and selective quotes can be misleading. Perhaps the reaction to the quotes in your posts is related to their selectivity and truncation.

I have highlighted your own posts showing where even you quote the CCC where it makes my point.

1. Ten commandments STILL binding on the saints - ALL TEN not a "nine commandment claim" in the CCC.

2. Lord's Day -- Saturday - the Sabbath as given by God in the actual Bible - then later BENT to point to week -day-1 by the church.

3. Sabbath - Saturday - in the OT as given by God - then later obedience to that commandment fulfilled/change/bent so that continued regular week-day-1 worship now fulfills that still-binding still-remaining moral obligation.

All the complaints notwithstanding these points stand without refutation. CCC proves it. Pope John Paul II proves it. Catholic Commentary proves it.

How "nice" then that someone would start a thread on this very point -- a gift!!

 

[BobRyan]

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the sabbath and instituted the Lord's day.

A Bible text then??? Is that what you want to propose.

"I the Lord Jesus am your Sabbath and have bent the Lord's day from the Sabbath SEVENTH day to now point to week-day-1 for week-day-1 is now the Lord's Day fulfilling the Sabbath Commandment moral obligation that is still-binding on all the saints. "??

I look forward to your finding such a text..

Popcorn in hand... this should be good.

Because on THIS point - I think all will see that Leo Trese's point about " no Bible text for this change" holds up to a close review of scripture.

[FONT=&quot](from "The Faith Explained" page 243[/FONT][FONT=&quot].))

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]we know that in the O.T it was the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the week - the Sabbath day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- which was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]observed as the Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. that was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the law as God gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]church had the right to make such a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is evident[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday.[/FONT][FONT=&quot].that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]

And I have yet to see a single text being identified for the "Christ made the change" solution to all these "Before" vs "After" pictures provided for us by the CCC and Leo Trese.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

And I have yet to see a single text being identified for the "Christ made the change" solution to all these "Before" vs "After" pictures provided for us by the CCC and Leo Trese.

in Christ,

Bob

That's only because you throw out anything we present. The other thing is you seem to be requiring a thou shalt not worship on the Sabbath or Thou shalt worship on the first day of the week. I feel real sorry for people who can't do anything but they're explicitly told to do. Your whole game is based on disbelief, condemnation and manipulation. We also call this deceiving.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I have highlighted your own posts showing where even you quote the CCC where it makes my point.

1. Ten commandments STILL binding on the saints - ALL TEN not a "nine commandment claim" in the CCC.

2. Lord's Day -- Saturday - the Sabbath as given by God in the actual Bible - then later BENT to point to week -day-1 by the church.

3. Sabbath - Saturday - in the OT as given by God - then later obedience to that commandment fulfilled/change/bent so that continued regular week-day-1 worship now fulfills that still-binding still-remaining moral obligation.

All the complaints notwithstanding these points stand without refutation. CCC proves it. Pope John Paul II proves it. Catholic Commentary proves it.

How "nice" then that someone would start a thread on this very point -- a gift!!

Who knows, you might close the RCC on Sunday yet upon converting the Pope. Good luck.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Who knows, you might close the RCC on Sunday

Which was never a point debated on either side so far... did you want to start some new thread on that off-topic??

Read the OP to see the subject being debated on this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the sabbath and instituted the Lord's day.
​

Originally Posted by BobRyan

A Bible text then??? Is that what you want to propose.

"I the Lord Jesus am your Sabbath and have bent the Lord's day from the Sabbath SEVENTH day to now point to week-day-1 for week-day-1 is now the Lord's Day fulfilling the Sabbath Commandment moral obligation that is still-binding on all the saints. "??

I look forward to your finding such a text..

Popcorn in hand... this should be good.

Because on THIS point - I think all will see that Leo Trese's point about " no Bible text for this change" holds up to a close review of scripture.

[FONT=&quot](from "The Faith Explained" page 243[/FONT][FONT=&quot].))

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]we know that in the O.T it was the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the week - the Sabbath day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- which was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]observed as the Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. that was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the law as God gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]church had the right to make such a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is evident[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday.[/FONT][FONT=&quot].that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]
​

And I have yet to see a single text being identified for the "Christ made the change" solution to all these "Before" vs "After" pictures provided for us by the CCC and Leo Trese.

That's only because you throw out anything we present. The other thing is you seem to be requiring a thou shalt not worship on the Sabbath or Thou shalt worship on the first day of the week. I feel real sorry for people who can't do anything but they're explicitly told to do. Your whole game is based on disbelief, condemnation and manipulation. We also call this deceiving.

bugkiller

Recall that the subject of this thread is that the RCC makes not claim to a Change made to the LAW of God - as SDAs claim they do... a change made specifically by the RCC as even their own Commentary admits they did.

As for the idea "well maybe JESUS is the one who changed the Ten Commandments making the Sabbath commandment point to week day 1" - I have said this...

A Bible text then??? Is that what you want to propose.

"I the Lord Jesus am your Sabbath and have bent the Lord's day from the Sabbath SEVENTH day to now point to week-day-1 for week-day-1 is now the Lord's Day fulfilling the Sabbath Commandment moral obligation that is still-binding on all the saints. "??

I look forward to your finding such a text..

----

Bugkiller and others have said that the Ten Commandments have had no change and are simply done away with.

That is not the POV of the RCC - as I have demonstrated, as Pope John Paul II quotes show, as the CCC quotes show as the Catholic Commentary quotes show...

Those who join up with the RCC position by exactly contradicting it - make for a strange alliance on doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Even with all the posts and repeat posts decrying the truth about Christ our Sabbath it remains the truth that It is the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the sabbath and instituted the Lord's day.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is yet another "elephant in their living room" --

The OP is "supposedly" directed at debunking SDA claims that the RCC has made a change to the Law of God -- the TEN Commandments, such that the moral obligation of the Sabbath Commandment - still binding on all mankind -- is "for them" fulfilled by Sunday worship - and this change is also affirmed for the "LORD's Day" where even THEY claim that it starts in harmony with the seventh day - Saturday Sabbath in the OT and then is CHANGED to week day 1.

So then to debunk that claim they need to address the arguments you see actually being made here by SDAs (and I am an example of posting in favor of the SDA POV) - so then that means a lot of "help" is given to address these points I have raised.

So far I see no reference at all to anything in the video that addresses the details that have been raised proving the change from Catholic sources like Pope John Paul II, the Catholic Commentary the CCC quotes as I have pointed them out ... etc.

What is up with that "no help" feature in the OP???

How could it be so helpful or agreed upon -- by not giving any help?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Even with all the posts and repeat posts decrying the truth about Christ our Sabbath it remains the truth that It is the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the sabbath and instituted the Lord's day.

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee It is the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the sabbath and instituted the Lord's day.

Simple direct questions for you.

Jesus said He and John were to "Fulfill all righteousness" in Matt 3 - do you agree? Does "fulfill" mean "abolish"???

Does the RCC teach that the Lord's Day did not exist in the OT but rather was instituted for the first time in the NT and as instituted it pointed to week day 1?

Has "Do not commit adultery" been "abolished" when "fulfilled"??

Do you have a text where Jesus said "I AM the Sabbath do not keep the one in the Ten Commandments"??

Do you have a text where Jesus said "I am changing the Lord's Day to week day 1"???

Do you have a text where Jesus said "If you rest and worship on week-day-1 you are fulfilling the moral obligation still binding in the Sabbath Commandment because I am now changing it from the seventh day to the first day"???

Do you make the claim that Jesus did in fact do all those things, make all those changes - not based on Bible texts that say it - but based on the Catholic Church claiming He did it "no need" for such Bible texts?

Dogma missing from scripture?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The truth is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) teaches that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week and remains so. The Lord's day is the first day of the week and on it Catholic Christians commemorate the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ after his passion. That is why every Sunday is a celebration because even though we remember the death of the Lord Jesus Christ until he comes again we also remember with great joy that he is risen indeed. The Lord's day is not the Sabbath. The truth is that Christ Jesus is himself the fulfilment of the Sabbath and he is the rest of God to which the Sabbath pointed. Thus Catholic Christians find their rest in the Lord Jesus Christ and no longer seek to gain God's favour by obedience to the law which was engraved in stone and was constituted of commandments and ordinances. The only work that Catholic Christians rely upon is the work of Christ Jesus in his incarnation, life, passion, resurrection, and ascension. Our works of obedience are "icing on the cake" - so to speak - in that God has privileged the faithful to participate in the work of Christ and to complete what is lacking in his sufferings.

 

[BobRyan]

The truth is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) teaches that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week and remains so.

And teaches that there is no moral obligation regarding the Sabbath commandment/

And teaches that regardless of what God says about the Sabbath and the moral obligation to worship on the seventh day, Saturday - it's moral obligation is now properly fulfilled by Sunday worship?

The Lord's day is the first day of the week and on it Catholic Christians commemorate the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ after his passion.

Is NOW week-day-1 but was in the Bible - Saturday, the seventh day - the Sabbath as given by God in the OT - where even your own CCC references Deut 5 showing it to be the LORD's Day - saturday, the Sabbath in the OT -- but now "changed".

Is there a need to carefully sidestep these CCC points?

in Christ,

Bob