HAB Theory may be key to getting us Conservatives to take climate change seriously.

[DennisTate]

this theory is quite insane. First, the ice cap isn't nearly big enough to cause such a wobble effect. Then there is it sliding off the continent. It would break apart under its own weight into several chunks. And then there is the every 7,000ish years. I would think that would have been recorded somewhere, or you know, wiped us out back just before the Egyptians.

You got it……… even people who tend to be skeptical of climate change can understand the mathematics regarding the collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet…… yes…. due partly to it own sheer weight as well as the fact that it is below sea level.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...antarctic-ice-collapse-middle-east-asia-crops

That sea-level rise would take out half of Bangladesh and mostly wipe out productive rice regions in Vietnam," Nelson told The Guardian. "It would have a major effect on Egyptian agricultural areas."

The projected levels of sea-level rise, due to the retreat of ice in West Antarctica, pose a far greater threat to future food supply even than that envisaged in the United Nations' IPCC report in March, Nelson said.

"A sea level rise of three metres over the next 100 years is much more likely than the IPCC thought possible," the report said.

In terms of absolute land loss, China would be at risk of losing more than 3 million hectares. Vietnam, India, Bangladesh, and Myanmar could lose more than 1 million hectares, the report said.

 

[DennisTate]

This was outside of the realm of Einstein's area of expertise, therefore his opinion on it is not particularly compelling.

Unless of course the actual mathematics are so simple that a high school student could figure out its seriousness rather easily?

Doesn't a general warming trend tend to increase rates of evaporation?

Once water evaporates doesn't a certain percentage of clouds float over Antarctica?

If the ice is several kilometers high in places…. what would tend to happen to those clouds as they float over mountains of ice?

 

[DennisTate]

That's great but modern science doesn't support it, and neither does history. Parts of it may have intrigued Einstein, but the theory you posted is beyond malarky.

I am hoping that you are correct Vylo!

This article doesn't deal much with the statistics about ice growth in the central region of Antarctica but does support some growth of ice coverage in area.

The North Pole is losing about 30,000 square miles of sea ice per year. Over the past century, average global temperatures have climbed by 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit. And yet, over the past few years, the sea ice that surround the South Pole has steadily been growing.

This past September, at the end of the Southern Hemisphere’s winter, the extent of Antarctica’s sea ice reached 19.51 million square kilometers, breaking a 35-year record that dated back to the start of data being collected in 1978. (In comparison, from 1981 to 2010, the average extent on the same date was just 18.5 million square miles.)

Why are the Arctic and Antarctic such polar opposites? Climate change deniers have pounced upon the unexpected divergence to argue that the planet’s temperature isn’t actually rising. But new research suggests that a different mechanism—unrelated to climate change—is responsible for the ice growth. The real answer, says University of Washington oceanographer Jinlun Zhang, can be found blowing in the wind.

Specifically, according to a study he and colleagues published in the Journal of Climate, the vortex of winds that swirl around the South Pole has both strengthened and converged, a trend that can explain about 80 percent of the growth in ice extent that has been detected in recent years.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...rowing-as-temperatures-rise-180947775/?no-ist
Why Is Antarctica’s Sea Ice Growing As Temperatures Rise?

 

[DennisTate]

The statistics on fresh water being added to the southern ocean is an important factor.

There's also a suggestion that a big contributor to the increasing sea ice could be the melting of the massive Antarctic ice sheet in the west of the continent.

According to the last IPCC report, between 2002 and 2011 the Antarctic ice sheet was likely losing ice at a rate of 147 billion tonnes a year – up from 30 billion tonnes a year over the previous decade.

A study published last year in the journal Nature Geoscience, concluded that all this added fresh water creates ideal conditions for Antarctic sea ice to form.

But the ACE CRC report notes that the current modest trend in rising Antarctic sea ice will likely be short lived.

What's going on with global warming and Antarctica's growing sea ice? | Graham Readfearn | Environment | theguardian.com

 

[DennisTate]

That's great but modern science doesn't support it, and neither does history. Parts of it may have intrigued Einstein, but the theory you posted is beyond malarky.

I am glad you got me doing more research…. this is the best article I have ran into so far that attempts to cover most major aspects of this troubling subject.

There is variation between regions within Antarctica (Figure 2, top panel), with the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and the Antarctic Peninsula Ice Sheet losing ice mass, and with an increasing rate. The East Antarctic Ice Sheet is growing slightly over this period but not enough to offset the other losses. There are of course uncertainties in the estimation methods but independent data from multiple measurement techniques (explained here) all show the same thing, Antarctica is losing land ice as a whole, and these losses are accelerating quickly.

Is Antarctica losing or gaining ice?

 

[Vylo]

I would think the sheets would be declining and the interior ice growing as the polar vortex intensifies. You would need considerable amounts of coastal areas to become snow-free before any heat would begin to penetrate inland.

You can see a small cooling area near the center while the edges are getting warmer. If the ice shelves go entirely and leave the land exposed, the sun striking the earth could amplify the heat considerably. This has been seen in the arctic areas, with them seeing the bulk of the global warming trend.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Unless of course the actual mathematics are so simple that a high school student could figure out its seriousness rather easily?

Doesn't a general warming trend tend to increase rates of evaporation?

Once water evaporates doesn't a certain percentage of clouds float over Antarctica?

If the ice is several kilometers high in places…. what would tend to happen to those clouds as they float over mountains of ice?

So, we have gone from citing Einstein to citing the average high school student.

 

[DennisTate]

So, we have gone from citing Einstein to citing the average high school student.

Yes………….. this article is profoundly encouraging……. The quotation in the opening post frankly had me somewhat more worried about a magnetic polar shift than perhaps I needed to be.


I am not certain if the difference is more up to date information or bias by either the HAB Theory promoters….. or by the writer of this article…. but I kind of hope that the author of this article is correct……

Estimates of recent changes in Antarctic land ice (Figure 2, bottom panel) show an increasing contribution to sea level with time, although not as fast a rate or acceleration as Greenland. Between 1992 and 2011, the Antarctic Ice Sheets overall lost 1350 giga-tonnes (Gt) or 1,350,000,000,000 tonnes into the oceans, at an average rate of 70 Gt per year (Gt/yr). Because a reduction in mass of 360 Gt/year represents an annual global-average sea level rise of 1 mm, these estimates equate to an increase in global-average sea levels by 0.19 mm/yr.

There is variation between regions within Antarctica (Figure 2, top panel), with the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and the Antarctic Peninsula Ice Sheet losing ice mass, and with an increasing rate. The East Antarctic Ice Sheet is growing slightly over this period but not enough to offset the other losses. There are of course uncertainties in the estimation methods but independent data from multiple measurement techniques (explained here) all show the same thing, Antarctica is losing land ice as a whole, and these losses are accelerating quickly.

Is Antarctica losing or gaining ice?


I honestly am hoping that my general belief in the HAB Theory was to at least some degree misguided!!!!

 

[theophilus777]

Dennis, you've got 2 main problems here:

1) the Antarctic ice sheet(s) aren't below sea level. You can see any pic taken from the region and see that the ice surface is clearly above sea level. Now do you mean ice extends down to land that is below sea level, and therefore the ice begins forming below sea level such that as it melts it will melt from the bottom as well as the top surface?

2) magnetic polar shift is happening and will happen. This is not the same thing as weight distribution causing the sort of cataclysm described. What about a polar shift will "wipe out all civilization?"

 

[ebia]

So, we have gone from citing Einstein to citing the average high school student.

He'll be demonstrating it in kinder next b

 

[DennisTate]

Dennis, you've got 2 main problems here:

1) the Antarctic ice sheet(s) aren't below sea level. You can see any pic taken from the region and see that the ice surface is clearly above sea level. Now do you mean ice extends down to land that is below sea level, and therefore the ice begins forming below sea level such that as it melts it will melt from the bottom as well as the top surface?

2) magnetic polar shift is happening and will happen. This is not the same thing as weight distribution causing the sort of cataclysm described. What about a polar shift will "wipe out all civilization?"

It is true that the surface of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is above seal level......… the problem is that the foundation...… the base..... of the W. A. I. S. is below sea level and therefore the entire massive ice sheet is highly vulnerable to cracking and sliding.

Just click on the link to this article to see an image of what I mean:


Collapse Of Antarctic Ice Sheet Would Likely Put Washington, D.C. Largely Underwater -- ScienceDaily

Collapse Of Antarctic Ice Sheet Would Likely Put Washington, D.C. Largely Underwater

University of Toronto and Oregon State University geophysicists have shown that should the West Antarctic Ice Sheet collapse and melt in a warming world – as many scientists are concerned it will – it is the coastlines of North America and of nations in the southern Indian Ocean that will face the greatest threats from rising sea levels.



The catastrophic increase in sea level, already projected to average between 16 and 17 feet around the world, would be almost 21 feet in such places as Washington, D.C., scientists say, putting it largely underwater. Many coastal areas would be devastated. Much of Southern Florida would disappear, according to researchers at Oregon State University.

It is not exactly melting at the bottom that concerns me.........… it is melting at the top....and then the water somehow drops down to the bottom....... and lubricates the entire ice sheet..... This is happening a lot on Greenland.

 

[DennisTate]

Rubbish.

What about ocean acidification?

Are you worried about a percentage of atmospheric carbon dioxide being transformed into carbolic acid in our oceans?

Ocean acidification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dgiharris]

I just skimmed over the original post, wow, that is pure comedy.

In order for the theory to have any merit the amount of water and thus potential ice on the Earth's surface would have to be significant, like 20% or more of the Earth's mass...

Take a look at this diagram

here is an article that sheds more light on just how much of the Earth is water. Note the difference between "Earth" vs "Earth's Surface".

Less than 0.02% of the Earth is water.

If you took all of the water on the earth and in the Earth and compared it to the entire Earth you'd get something that looked like this

in terms of weight, keep in mind that rock and iron and significantly more dense and heavier than water.

So yeah, thinking that heavy polar caps will make the Earth spin sideways is just lunacy...

 

[DennisTate]

I just skimmed over the original post, wow, that is pure comedy.

In order for the theory to have any merit the amount of water and thus potential ice on the Earth's surface would have to be significant, like 20% or more of the Earth's mass...

Take a look at this diagram

here is an article that sheds more light on just how much of the Earth is water. Note the difference between "Earth" vs "Earth's Surface".

Less than 0.02% of the Earth is water.

If you took all of the water on the earth and in the Earth and compared it to the entire Earth you'd get something that looked like this

in terms of weight, keep in mind that rock and iron and significantly more dense and heavier than water.

So yeah, thinking that heavy polar caps will make the Earth spin sideways is just lunacy...

Your reply is exceptionally good!

I was so impressed that I quoted you in full over to a similar discussion here........


http://www.christianforums.com/t7870227-3/#post67169645

I honestly do hope that you are correct!

I would truly love to be wrong about this!