Is masturbation without pornography or lustful thoughts a sin?

[Gottservant]

It's sinful to touch even if it's without lust.

That is a false assertion I can contradict with multiple witnesses of first hand experience.

 

[Nanopants]

Yes, how helpful. Telling people who have spent countless hours masturbating because they couldn't make friends in the real world and turned to porn because they were lonely, desperate and seeking companionship and thought they had to sexualize it that they are obsessing with this too much really helps to solve the problem. Of course ISIS is more important, but we don't have to talk about them 24/7, now do we? At least THEY get to leave as martyrs.

If that's how you read it, then you misread my post. It was not directed at people for masturbating, it's directed at the religion that obsesses over the subject and teaches people to obsess over it just as they do. But if someone is obsessed with it, would the responsible thing be to encourage that obsession? Of course not.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

That is a false assertion I can contradict with multiple witnesses of first hand experience.

Yes, I am sure that many of us can testify to the benefits of masturbation and we aren't going to hell.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Like I said... it's self inflicted and it's circular in nature. If these teachings didn't exist you wouldn't need to tie your hands down to keep from touching yourself or cry till Jesus forgives you over something as simple and meaningless as rubbing yourself.

Lot's of things have long been associated with Christianity, like sexism and racism and it took us years to fix that crap and maybe one day this will get fixed too.

I'm not guilty about "rubbing myself". I'm guilty over the fact that I have sexualized other people, made them into these false gods that they really aren't, and having wasted so much of my time doing it because I was too socially inept. I also blame the culture for giving me this impression that I need to have sex or else I was a loser. But I was never socially adept enough to engage in that sort of activity, so I did the next best thing, and I became addicted.

You're right, sometimes people make it out to be worse than it really is. To God every sin is the same. And I'd really like you to stop mocking my struggles. I thought you liberals (you seem to be one to me, at least theologically) were supposed to be kind and tolerant and sympathetic. I'm not seeing that here, just, "Oh, what an idiot, getting yourself all worked up over sex".

Have you been through this stuff? If you haven't then I'm not surprised you'd be so dismissive about it.

 

[grandvizier1006]

If that's how you read it, then you misread my post. It was not directed at people for masturbating, it's directed at the religion that obsesses over the subject and teaches people to obsess over it just as they do. But if someone is obsessed with it, would the responsible thing be to encourage that obsession? Of course not.

If you're trying to get at obsessions, then I guess that makes more sense.

I have OCD, and I've herd it theorized that sexual addiction--if such a thing exists--could be seen as another form of OCD. I think mine was certainly OCD-based. I felt like I "needed" to keep finding things to touch to--otherwise there was just something "wrong" with me. I still get those feelings from time to time, and if I didn't have those feelings then I would touch much less. If you know anything about OCD, then you'd know that just leaving it up in the air is a bad idea for any OCD sufferer. I would prefer concrete rules that would let me know whether or not I am sinning, and if so what do I do about it.

After everything I've been through, I'd say I AM sinning. Maybe it's not the same way for everyone, but it certainly has been for me. I would LIKE to learn how to STOP feeling like I "need" some sort of sexual gratification, but instead I get people telling me how pathetic I am for even TRYING to please God by eliminating sinful thoughts/desires.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Yeah, I agree, society has this obsession that if you don't have sex, you are somehow a loser. This is especially true for men, and really all it does is hurt people.

We have a long way to go in terms of promoting healthy relationships, both platonic and romantic, in society.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

grandvizier1006

I'm not guilty about "rubbing myself". I'm guilty over the fact that I have sexualized other people, made them into these false gods that they really aren't

Then Masturbation itself is not the problem.

and having wasted so much of my time doing it because I was too socially inept. I also blame the culture for giving me this impression that I need to have sex or else I was a loser. But I was never socially adept enough to engage in that sort of activity, so I did the next best thing, and I became addicted.

I'm sorry you feel such horrible things about yourself, but that doesn't make masturbation wrong and like I said... these silly ideas are the root of the problem.

You're right, sometimes people make it out to be worse than it really is. To God every sin is the same.

Who says it's a sin at all?

And I'd really like you to stop mocking my struggles. I thought you liberals (you seem to be one to me, at least theologically) were supposed to be kind and tolerant and sympathetic. I'm not seeing that here, just, "Oh, what an idiot, getting yourself all worked up over sex".

You think I'm being mean to you but I don't take kindly to such destructive ideas because they really hurt people and they are not kind, tolerant, loving or good in anyway.

Have you been through this stuff? If you haven't then I'm not surprised you'd be so dismissive about it.

I once thought I was bad for touching myself and I hated myself for it. The pain that caused me does not lead me to approach these sort of ideas with empathy anymore. Intolerant and destructive ideas don't deserve to be tolerated. I don't think anything about it anymore.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I don't see how masturbation, if done in conjunction with porn or lustful thoughts, isn't a sin. The act itself doesn't matter.

And how can I be sure that people like you are just telling yourselves that masturbating to porn isn't a sin just so that you can squelch the thought of guilt? To the Christian, guilt over sin doesn't come from an "oppressive culture"--it comes from our God-given consciences. It says right in the Bible that our bodies were not made for sexual immorality. I was not put on this Earth just so that I could sit around and look at porn all day.

"Intolerant and destructive ideas", huh? Great, thanks for confirming my other major OCD fear--namely, that I'm basically an ideological terrorist for not wanting to worship sex.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

I don't see how masturbation, if done in conjunction with porn or lustful thoughts, isn't a sin. The act itself doesn't matter.

And how can I be sure that people like you are just telling yourselves that masturbating to porn isn't a sin just so that you can squelch the thought of guilt? To the Christian, guilt over sin doesn't come from an "oppressive culture"--it comes from our God-given consciences. It says right in the Bible that our bodies were not made for sexual immorality. I was not put on this Earth just so that I could sit around and look at porn all day.

"Intolerant and destructive ideas", huh? Great, thanks for confirming my other major OCD fear--namely, that I'm basically an ideological terrorist for not wanting to worship sex.

Whether or not you know how to touch without lusting over someone isn't really the topic.

How can I make you sure of why I say something? I can't... you can take or leave this information my man. Oppressive cultures have long convinced people of false ideas concerning the bible that in turn oppressed the people.

No one's telling you to sit all day or look at porn all day or look at porn at all.

I am sorry you're scared of being a terrorist... this looks like projecting to me.

School yard bullies don't get to blame the kids who told on him for hurting them for being mean to him. If you're a terrorist then it's not really my job to make sure you feel happy about it, because you hurt people.

 

[Nanopants]

If you're trying to get at obsessions, then I guess that makes more sense.

I have OCD, and I've herd it theorized that sexual addiction--if such a thing exists--could be seen as another form of OCD. I think mine was certainly OCD-based. I felt like I "needed" to keep finding things to touch to--otherwise there was just something "wrong" with me. I still get those feelings from time to time, and if I didn't have those feelings then I would touch much less. If you know anything about OCD, then you'd know that just leaving it up in the air is a bad idea for any OCD sufferer. I would prefer concrete rules that would let me know whether or not I am sinning, and if so what do I do about it.

After everything I've been through, I'd say I AM sinning. Maybe it's not the same way for everyone, but it certainly has been for me. I would LIKE to learn how to STOP feeling like I "need" some sort of sexual gratification, but instead I get people telling me how pathetic I am for even TRYING to please God by eliminating sinful thoughts/desires.

Ok. Look, consider another God-given appetite: the hunger for food. Is it possible to misuse one's capacity for eating? You bet, but for whatever reason, people usually don't obsess about the sinfulness of it. Is it possible to adopt a more strict and religious mindset on the subject? It's happened in the past: ascetics of various religions have been known to starve themselves, sometimes even to death.

But, imagine how psychologically torturous it could be to be terrified of a God which is supposedly angered over everyone's hunger for food: we wouldn't be able to stop getting hungry, so we might become convinced that we are hopelessly full of sin because of that, and every bite could lead to a "spiritual" struggle between life and death. Fortunately that's not what God is like, according to the Bible, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be very far from how Western Christianity approaches the subject of sexuality these days.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Ok. Look, consider another God-given appetite: the hunger for food. Is it possible to misuse one's capacity for eating? You bet, but for whatever reason, people usually don't obsess about the sinfulness of it. Is it possible to adopt a more strict and religious mindset on the subject? It's happened in the past: ascetics of various religions have been known to starve themselves, sometimes even to death.

But, imagine how psychologically torturous it could be to be terrified of a God which is supposedly angered over everyone's hunger for food: we wouldn't be able to stop getting hungry, so we might become convinced that we are hopelessly full of sin because of that, and every bite could lead to a "spiritual" struggle between life and death. Fortunately that's not what God is like, according to the Bible, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be very far from how Western Christianity approaches the subject of sexuality these days.

You're right. But the thing is, sex isn't necessary for survival. You won't die if you don't have sex. Maybe that was the logic in later phases of Christian thought.

All I know is that lust is clearly a sin, and so is sexual immorality in general. But nobody will ever tell me what that is.

What am I supposed to do, though? Make something up myself? I don't live like that. I'd rather have clear, definite rules.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

grandvizier1006

All I know is that lust is clearly a sin, and so is sexual immorality in general. But nobody will ever tell me what that is.

What am I supposed to do, though? Make something up myself? I don't live like that. I'd rather have clear, definite rules

If you don't have that information and no one has been able to provide you with it then this is definitely self inflicted. You should set the issue down and pursue this with god on your own. Earlier you told me that you didn't want to be someone controlled by society's trends but now you say are frustrated because no one in your society has a rule to give you that just solves the whole thing for you.

You have to be strong man, you have to be willing to come to your own conclusions for yourself, that's one of the reasons you're afflicted by all these ideas and arrived where you are today. You've needed their rules to survive and you're still asking for society to create rules for you.

Read the bible and pray and ask god and come to your own conclusions and if you don't get answers than set it down for now.

Every last one of us is reading the same book you are and talking to the same god... what are the chances there's someone out there who knows everything you don't? Why torture yourself this way? Why do you think so little of yourself?

 

[Gottservant]

Yes, I am sure that many of us can testify to the benefits of masturbation and we aren't going to hell.

Only if you've done it without lust.

That is an important distinction (with different results).

 

[Nanopants]

You're right. But the thing is, sex isn't necessary for survival. You won't die if you don't have sex. Maybe that was the logic in later phases of Christian thought.

Well, you'd be wrong. Sex is necessary for the survival of the species.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I have been struggling with this same question/issue for years. When I was married, I think it may have been right to be convicted of it being wrong because I had a partner. Now I am divorced, no one in the picture, and cannot marry again (many reasons NOT for discussion here). So I'm not taking away from a spouse, cheating anyone of what should be theirs, nor hurting anyone by masturbating.

So if I am single, live alone, have no thoughts of a person, do not use pornography, etc. (which are all true) is it Biblically wrong to touch? I do it because it feels so good and relaxes me. I even thought about getting one of those vibrators to get where I can't reach (if you get the drift)...again, because it would feel so wonderful to have something inside, giving me a climactic thrill that I will never in my lifetime experience again by a person. (I am against sex outside of marriage!) Three things stop me from getting a vibrating sex toy: cost; someone would find it after I die so it wouldn't be my secret then; and it would just be my luck that the thing would get stuck, break, or cause a physical problem and then I'd have to explain to a doctor which would be embarrassing.

Most of the time, sex wasn't that great when I was married, but there were one or two times (in 36 years) that it was awesome and didn't want it to end. I want to feel that experience again, and since I don't/can't have a spouse, what's wrong with meeting my own needs in a responsible manner?

I've heard and read both sides of the issue and am not convinced it is wrong. If I was convinced it is wrong, then I'd have to give it up somehow or I would be convicted. But right now I'm not convicted. I had gone months without doing it, fell into it one day, and again months went by. But earlier this week, the compulsion to do it became so strong and the release felt so good that I've done it several times.

Someone even said to me that if you're questioning whether something is right or wrong, then you have your doubts about it, and you're being convicted. I'm not so sure that reasoning is correct either because you can have an honest question about something and the answer might be it is not sin, so in that case, a question is not conviction.

I tried talking to a former pastor about this, but even though he said I could tell him anything, this was out of his comfort zone. He prayed for me, but we never talked about it, so I didn't get any help there. I know my present pastor would not be comfortable discussing it either, and after the first pastor's reaction/response, I don't want to attempt it again. I shared it with a female acquaintance (a pastor's wife) who I knew but didn't live nearby, and asked her to hold me accountable, but after a few times, she did not contact me again. I saw her a year later and neither of us said anything about it.

Well, that's enough for now. The more I talk about it, the more I want to go do it again. I'm signing off for tonight. I hope someone sees this and responds.

I guess Hebrews 12.2 is relevant.

 

[Dave-W]

Wow. Gone for a few days and 3 more pages of arguments. Great !!!

I know this makes many uncomfortable. But that is good. It is done because of discomfort - sometimes EXTREME discomfort.

Not that God wants us to be comfortable all the time; He doesn't. It is thru times of discomfort that we grow. But those are seasons with a resolution in the end.

It has been said we do not need sexual release. But the question remains "need it for WHAT exactly?"

Will we die if we do not have it today? Probably not.

But extended periods of arousal/need without release have been shown to have detrimental effects on our health. Males have earlier prostate problems. Females have uterine problems that can often require hysterectomies. Christian physician Dr Ed Wheat has stated in his practice that most of the hysterectomies done on his patients were from maladies of lack of release.

Famous American author Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain) was asked once if he was scared by the things he did not understand in the Bible. He answered no - he was scared enough by the things he DID understand.

The fact is that M is never forbiden in the bible. IOW the prohibition is a man made doctrine. The one place it is most clearly alluded to, (Song of Solomon chapter 5) it is put in a positive light.

So I would submit that by obsessing over it and making it a sin no matter the context, we do terrible damage to the faith of our young folk who feel trapped by a God who created powerful drives but condemns them for trying to relieve those drives. What kind of loving father would put his children in that situation? So it gives a warped image of God. It further gives a warped image of the drive that it is evil; an idea that may not go away when married. So it leads to sexual disfunction in marriage.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Well, you'd be wrong. Sex is necessary for the survival of the species.

I think we know what he means. That's sex outside of marriage.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Ok everyone,

This is a serious question.

Has anyone looked into the so-called release of tension through touching yourself that has nothing to do with lust, but rather as a stress relief? I don't have time to at work, but I'm hoping someone will look around to see if it exists. LMK.

I'm curious....

Have you any conclusions yet?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

You're right. But the thing is, sex isn't necessary for survival. You won't die if you don't have sex. Maybe that was the logic in later phases of Christian thought.

All I know is that lust is clearly a sin, and so is sexual immorality in general. But nobody will ever tell me what that is.

What am I supposed to do, though? Make something up myself? I don't live like that. I'd rather have clear, definite rules.

I think that God does explain the overall thoughts about sin. When we are God's and we want to please God it is the spiritual things that please God. God makes a clear distinction all over the bible between the things that are spiritual vs. the carnal. We know that through Christ's sacrifice we will live with God forever in paradise. That is a very spiritual concept. That does not satisfy the flesh or carnal things of this world, that satisfies our spiritual self. All spiritual things come from a hear that has changed. We are to walk with God in faith. At each moment we are either carnal (fleshly) or spiritual.

Sex satisfies our fleshly desires outside of marriage since we are not doing it for reproductions sake.

When/if you look into further the relationship of marriage, God see's marriage between a man and his wife that should in some ways be a mirror of our relationship with Christ.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Have you any conclusions yet?

It was a busy weekend. I will look into it today.