What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[xXLoveisGodXx]

I'd be happy to address those difficult questions. Pose the one question that is the most difficult to believe/ understand.

 

[Freodin]

See that's the thing... The problem is always "if Christians didn't speak with authority." Or "if Christians didn't try to convert" or "if Christians didn't try to force their views" but your very post said you would encourage this so long as its for an atheistic agenda to convert to atheism.

And there are no double standards on this board.

I said nothing about you apart from what I saw. I didn't even say anything bad about you,

You said nothing but what you imagine you saw.

My "very post" said

[children] really should learn about God in schools! Even in the "listen children, I now tell you the truth about God" way.

I said nothing about that being for "the atheist agenda" or "to convert [them] to atheism".
I just stated my approval of the fact that is does result in quite a number of people becoming atheists.

That is a difference... to quote someone I met recently here.

So when you state that
"you desire that we all become atheists" and "[you] have a problem when Christians try to convert you"
then this is a complete and rather insulting misrepresentation of my position.

Your own post shows that. Now you compare "Christians trying to convert you" (which I found isn't working at all, but I'd like to see them try) to "Christians speaking with authority" (which I think they don't have, and thus haven't a right to claim it) and "Christians trying to force their views" (which they do, and I really don't like that).

That is a difference... but that doesn't keep you from "seeing" it as on the same level.


Well, what you think you are seeing is wrong. Quite often. That doesn't seem to bother you when you see something "Christian"... but it bothers you when you see something "atheist".

That is the double standard you are promoting.

 

[Freodin]

I'd be happy to address those difficult questions. Pose the one question that is the most difficult to believe.

There are many questions, and asking and trying to answer them here would most likely get this thread closed for being "General apologetics".

I'd really love to have a subforum to have such a conversation here, but the powers that be have decided against it.

But there might be one question relating to the topic of this thread:

"Why should I believe you?"

 

[xXLoveisGodXx]

You can believe whatever makes you happy. I hope that you would hear what I have to say because I am happy. I live an incredible life, full of happiness and joy. I do what makes me happy and have no worries. The world moves beneath my feet to accommodate me and I don't have to beg or plead. I have found the true joy that every person should know. I simply want for you to find that joy and happiness as well. I don't care if you 'convert' or not. I don't care what religion you choose to accept or reject. My message is of Love, and I want nothing more than for you to be able to experience Love in the same way I do. Not for my benefit, but for yours.

 

[xXLoveisGodXx]

I know the 'joys' of atheism all to well. It's lacking, to say the least. If my philosophy could make you happy without ANY sacrifice, then would you try it? You have nothing to lose but I believe that if you are here, looking for answers, that maybe there is something you could gain...

 

[Freodin]

You can believe whatever makes you happy.

Only that, according to what you wrote further down, it doesn't.

I hope that you would hear what I have to say because I am happy.

You can PM me, if you want. I'd rather have such conversations out in the open, but the rules of this forum doesn't allow it. It is not my choice... I would love to have a place for this here.

I live an incredible life, full of happiness and joy. I do what makes me happy and have no worries. The world moves beneath my feet to accommodate me and I don't have to beg or plead. I have found the true joy that every person should know. I simply want for you to find that joy and happiness as well. I don't care if you 'convert' or not. I don't care what religion you choose to accept or reject. My message is of Love, and I want nothing more than for you to be able to experience Love in the same way I do. Not for my benefit, but for yours.

But you cannot share that. No one can. People who claim to do that fool themselves.

You say that you are happy. This is fine. But you will never - can never - know how I feel. It is not possible.

I know the 'joys' of atheism all to well. It's lacking, to say the least.

No, you don't. You know how you felt when you were "an atheist"... whatever that implies for you.

If my philosophy could make you happy without ANY sacrifice, then would you try it? You have nothing to lose but I believe that if you are here, looking for answers, that maybe there is something you could gain...

Well, yes, maybe there is. Maybe you are right.

But maybe isn't enough to cause belief.

I said the following, most likely better phrased than now, in a thread that sadly got deleted since:
"Intellectual integrity is not about the consequences of your beliefs... it is about the compelling reasons for your beliefs. I don't believe or disbelieve because what it gains me or costs me. I believe or disbelief because of the compelling reasons I have."

So, why should I believe you?

 

[Freodin]

First of all, 'they' did not tell me anything. Jesus was asked point blank, " who is God" and his answer was "God is Love." It's quite literal.
I do not claim that love only exists in our 'minds'. I believe that Love exists in all things and is a measurable energy.
Let me now address the atheist, that refuses to believe in Love even though he believes in love. Lol....
Lets start by confirming that you do believe in love (lower case).
How can this be? You admit you believe in a yet unmeasurable, intangible idea that 'only exists in the human perception.' It does not appear on any periodic chart. It is not yet clinically tested and would not pass the test for scientific proof. Yet, you still believe.
You believe because you can feel it. It's real to you because you have experienced it first hand. You undoubtably have benefited from it, as have we all.
Now, I assume that you are unwilling to accept that there could be a God because it would mean that you are liable for your faults and mistakes. I think your stubbornness comes from the fear of condemnation. Is this a reasonable assumption, on some level?
So, what if I told you that there is no fear in the acceptance of Love. Love is all the things that you believe it is. Love does not get angry or condem. Love does not adhere to any formal religion or belief system. Love simply is love. There is no burden to carry, no mission statement, no terms of acceptance. You do not have to apply to be accepted.
In fact, even you, a self proclaimed atheist, have accepted love and all it's benefits into your heart. I know that once you experience love, you will never be happy without it. True?
I believe then, that you have Love in your heart. In my view, all you have to do now is be loving to others, and you have fulfilled your requirements for salvation. If you choose love on a daily basis you are a godly man whether you admit it or not. It doesn't matter whether you deny it or not, it simply is what it is.

Based on this, I doubt that you know the "joys of atheism". You simply present to many concepts in conflict with what atheists may believe.

 

[bhsmte]

You can believe whatever makes you happy. I hope that you would hear what I have to say because I am happy. I live an incredible life, full of happiness and joy. I do what makes me happy and have no worries. The world moves beneath my feet to accommodate me and I don't have to beg or plead. I have found the true joy that every person should know. I simply want for you to find that joy and happiness as well. I don't care if you 'convert' or not. I don't care what religion you choose to accept or reject. My message is of Love, and I want nothing more than for you to be able to experience Love in the same way I do. Not for my benefit, but for yours.

We are all different. Maybe what makes you happy and live a good life, does not apply to everyone. Have you ever considered some people can be happy and live good lives without your personal faith belief?

 

[kristina411]

@ freodin: And dont forget the ending to your post:

As someone raised in a school system where religious eductation offered by religious groups is still compulsory, I can tell you that nothing creates atheists as fast as being forced to listen to this stuff in schools.


Your agenda (in desiring religion be taught in schools) has nothing to do with wanting everyone to become atheist?

So... If we are left at silly games of back and forth I must depart. Take care

 

[xXLoveisGodXx]

Lol, I love you, I agree that I only know how atheism effected me. I can see by your responses that we are not so different. You do not seem like a person that is inherently happy. No offense.
Fortunately, I can share this with you. I did not create love and I cannot control it. To accept love is a choice. You are the only person who can make that choice for you. Belief in love itself is ultimately inconsequential. You have it, whether you want it or not. I am only suggesting that you choose love (to love). My happiness is a choice. I chose to be happy and focus on the positive, no matter what the situation. I try my best to respond to every stimuli with love. You do not have to believe me, but it's true all the same.
I know that if you tried this, you would find the joy I have. It's not a matter of 'belief' as much as a matter of practice.
In the morning, I listen to music that makes me happy. For me it's, don't worry be happy, it's some sublime and bob marley. It's a little country and a little rock. This sets my mood.
Then throughout the day, it's constantly reminding myself to choose love when my mind says anger or sadness. It's a choice. That choice is easier and easier as I go along. It seems that my brain is being re- wired to make these choices on its own.
Past that its choosing to give of myself to others. You know how this feels, I'm sure. It's gratifying in a way that nothing else can be.
This practice does not involve any type of religion but instead trumps them. You can do this and believe that there is no God. Doesn't matter.
You're entire world is comprised of your beliefs and perceptions. What you perceive is truth to you. So, if you choose to believe that happiness can be found in your own heart, then wouldn't it be true?
My point is this, things are what they are, right or wrong, if believing in something makes you happy, then why not believe it.

 

[Freodin]

@ freodin: And dont forget the ending to your post:

As someone raised in a school system where religious eductation offered by religious groups is still compulsory, I can tell you that nothing creates atheists as fast as being forced to listen to this stuff in schools.


Your agenda has nothing to do with wanting everyone to become atheist.

So... If we are left at silly games of back and forth I must depart. Take care

As I said:

"I just stated my approval of the fact that is does result in quite a number of people becoming atheists."

So, I didn't forget the ending of my post. You are simply imagining things again.

And it really seems we are left at me correcting your mistakes again. I think I am tired of it. Don't bother to respond.

 

[xXLoveisGodXx]

Based on this, I doubt that you know the "joys of atheism". You simply present to many concepts in conflict with what atheists may believe.

Things have changed for me. I was an atheist only after I was a Lutheran, a Mormon, a Christian, a Wiccan and for a brief period, somewhat of a satanist. I was searching and when I'd finally given up, atheism was just easier.
I know the feeling that resides deep in your heart. The anger and sadness. The lacking. At least I know I felt it.
YES, we can be good people without any formal declaration of religion. This is what I've been suggesting all along. You can live for love and find happiness without a subscription. You don't need anything but your own heart. You don't have to believe that Love is God as I do, in order to benefit from Love. I am suggesting that you choose to believe something that brings you joy.

 

[Freodin]

Lol, I love you, I agree that I only know how atheism effected me. I can see by your responses that we are not so different. You do not seem like a person that is inherently happy. No offense.
Fortunately, I can share this with you. I did not create love and I cannot control it. To accept love is a choice. You are the only person who can make that choice for you. Belief in love itself is ultimately inconsequential. You have it, whether you want it or not. I am only suggesting that you choose love (to love). My happiness is a choice. I chose to be happy and focus on the positive, no matter what the situation. I try my best to respond to every stimuli with love. You do not have to believe me, but it's true all the same.
I know that if you tried this, you would find the joy I have. It's not a matter of 'belief' as much as a matter of practice.
In the morning, I listen to music that makes me happy. For me it's, don't worry be happy, it's some sublime and bob marley. It's a little country and a little rock. This sets my mood.
Then throughout the day, it's constantly reminding myself to choose love when my mind says anger or sadness. It's a choice. That choice is easier and easier as I go along. It seems that my brain is being re- wired to make these choices on its own.
Past that its choosing to give of myself to others. You know how this feels, I'm sure. It's gratifying in a way that nothing else can be.
This practice does not involve any type of religion but instead trumps them. You can do this and believe that there is no God. Doesn't matter.
You're entire world is comprised of your beliefs and perceptions. What you perceive is truth to you. So, if you choose to believe that happiness can be found in your own heart, then wouldn't it be true?
My point is this, things are what they are, right or wrong, if believing in something makes you happy, then why not believe it.

I know this might be difficult to accept for some people, perhaps you included:

"Intellectual integrity is not about the consequences of your beliefs... it is about the compelling reasons for your beliefs. I don't believe or disbelieve because what it gains me or costs me. I believe or disbelief because of the compelling reasons I have."

I do not choose my beliefs. I can choose my approach to life, but I don't think that anyones perception of this approach is more meaningful than my own.

You do not seem like a person that is inherently happy. No offense.

Well, neither do you. No offense. But how I may seem to you - or you may seem to me - doesn't matter.

Things have changed for me. I was an atheist only after I was a Lutheran, a Mormon, a Christian, a Wiccan and for a brief period, somewhat of a satanist. I was searching and when I'd finally given up, atheism was just easier.
I know the feeling that resides deep in your heart. The anger and sadness. The lacking. At least I know I felt it.

Bold the last part of this statement. It is the correct part. The rest of the last line is... well, "lacking".

YES, we can be good people without any formal declaration of religion. This is what I've been suggesting all along. You can live for love and find happiness without a subscription. You don't need anything but your own heart. You don't have to believe that Love is God as I do, in order to benefit from Love. I am suggesting that you choose to believe something that brings you joy.

That would mean you are suggesting I "choose" to believe in what I already believe. Well, great.

Why were you answering on my post about difficult questions again?

 

[xXLoveisGodXx]

You're question was, why should I believe you?
My answer was, I have something you might want.

Now, pose a difficult question.

If your beliefs, make you happy, then who cares what anyone else thinks? I am only suggesting that maybe you could have more.

As to your statement of beliefs,

First I'd like to make note that you are basically saying that you don't choose to believe in anything but the sum of your past experiences.
Is this accurate?
This is where you've missed my intent. I don't want you to forgo you own past experiences and belief system. I'm am saying that, if you beliefs could gain you something, what would be wrong with that?
I am suggesting that only that if you chose to, you could believe anything you wanted to. But you have bound yourself to your beliefs.
Your experiences are, after all, only how you perceive them to be. Right?
Ie, if I had been there right next to you for these events in your life that changed your beliefs forever, would I feel as you do? Would I have the same beliefs?
Can you accept that these things you hold so dearly might not be perceived the same way by someone else? If so than its all up to a matter of interpretation. You chose to interpret your past in a way that suits your needs in the present.
If you chose to interpret things differently, right or wrong, is there a possibility that you could have everything your lacking. Could it be that easy?

 

[bhsmte]

I am suggesting that you choose to believe something that brings you joy.

This all depends on the individual and their personal psyche.

Some people gravitate to comfortable beliefs, because of the comfort they bring. Some people can't cling to beliefs, if they can't reconcile them with reality in their own mind.

In the end, people can live happy good lives whether they are; Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. etc.

Whatever you need to latch onto to, that makes you a better person and makes you happy, I say go for it. That is, as long as the belief does not cause the person to negatively judge others who disagree with them, or requires them to ignore and deny well evidenced reality. In those cases, I am not sure a belief that requires negative judging of others or denial of reality, is a good thing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I was searching and when I'd finally given up, atheism was just easier.
I know the feeling that resides deep in your heart. The anger and sadness. The lacking. At least I know I felt it.

Atheism was more like a realization to me, a kind of rational enlightenment.

It wasn't something "easy" -- it was achieved only after many years of careful pondering. It wasn't the result of "giving up", but of finding what I had been searching for all along. It was not occasioned by the slightest bit of anger or sadness, even at first.

Everyone is different. You shouldn't assume that what was true for you is true for everyone else.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[bhsmte]

I know the feeling that resides deep in your heart. The anger and sadness. The lacking. At least I know I felt it.

Do you often assume other people feel the exact same things as you?

Where did you get your mind reading skills?

 

[Freodin]

You're question was, why should I believe you?
My answer was, I have something you might want.

I really don't know much about your position regarding "belief", but I can say that a lot of atheists, many of them who share my position in this regard with tell you that this doesn't answer the question.

Now, pose a difficult question.

Getting to a correct understanding of the question seems to be difficult enough.

If your beliefs, make you happy, then who cares what anyone else thinks? I am only suggesting that maybe you could have more.

Let me turn this around... perhaps we might come to a better understanding then. Your beliefs make you happy, you assert. But here I am suggesting that maybe you could have more. Get a "correct" (mine! ) understanding of atheism, be happy (in the way that I am happy! ), achive a "true" (as I see it! ) look at "love"... and everything will be better.

I have something that you might want to get. So do you now believe me?

As to your statement of beliefs,

First I'd like to make note that you are basically saying that you don't choose to believe in anything but the sum of your past experiences.
Is this accurate?

No. Belief, as I see it, is not a conscious process. You don't chose. It is not that "you don't choose to believe in anything but.." You don't choose. Fullstop. In the same way that you don't choose to be subjected to gravity.

This is where you've missed my intent. I don't want you to forgo you own past experiences and belief system. I'm am saying that, if you beliefs could gain you something, what would be wrong with that?
I am suggesting that only that if you chose to, you could believe anything you wanted to. But you have bound yourself to your beliefs.

Well, perhaps, in a way, you are even correct here: I can believe anything I wanted. "Wanting" is also not a conscious process.

But if you meant it in the way of "I could choose to believe anything I imagined or decided"... no, I could not do that. No one can.

Your beliefs are formed by your own past experiences. The only way to change your beliefs is by different experiences.

Your experiences are, after all, only how you perceive them to be. Right?
Ie, if I had been there right next to you for these events in your life that changed your beliefs forever, would I feel as you do? Would I have the same beliefs?

No. Being "right next to me" for whatever kind of events would still lead to your own experiences. You would have to be me in order for you to have my experiences. All the time. All my life.

Can you accept that these things you hold so dearly might not be perceived the same way by someone else? If so than its all up to a matter of interpretation. You chose to interpret your past in a way that suits your needs in the present.

Interpretation isn't a (completely) conscious process either.

If you chose to interpret things differently, right or wrong, is there a possibility that you could have everything your lacking. Could it be that easy?

No. That would be wishful thinking.

 

[Freodin]

Atheism was more like a realization to me, a kind of rational enlightenment.

It wasn't something "easy" -- it was achieved only after many years of careful pondering. It wasn't the result of "giving up", but of finding what I had been searching for all along. It was not occasioned by the slightest bit of anger or sadness, even at first.

Everyone is different. You shouldn't assume that what was true for you is true for everyone else.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I can only agree with that post.

Usually I do not make content-free posts where I only agree with another poster, but Mark just stated exactly my position on that.

 

[brinny]

MacBeth and King Duncan are discussing the politics of Scotland when an eccentric prophet-like figure barges into the room.

"There is a Shakespeare!" he says.

"What's a Shakespeare?" replies MacBeth.

"What's a Shakespeare?! Shakespeare is the creator of our world. He's responsible for everything that we are and see. He's the author of life. He created us and sustains our existence. We owe everything to him!" the prophet says.

MacBeth and Duncan smile at one another and look around the room.

"I don't see any Shakespeares." says Duncan. "Where is this Shakespeare?"

"He spoke to me. He sent me. I come from him and will return to him. I've come with a message!" says the prophet.

"Anyone can make such a claim. What evidence do you have for his existence. What evidence do you have that he sent you?" asks MacBeth.

"The whole world is evidence of his existence!" replies the prophet...

***

When we ask for evidence for something that's within creation we all know the kinds of things we're looking for. We're looking for tangible, physical evidence. Different claims require different sorts of evidence.

"I am your father." What evidence is required of this claim? DNA testing, photographs, common memories, etc...

"It rained this afternoon." What evidence is required here? Wet cement, video footage or pictures, personal testimony, etc...

But God is the creator. If He exists he is in an entirely different category from everything else. He alone is creator, everything else is creation. He is unique. What would evidence for the existence of God be like? It's too simplistic to ask for the sort of physical evidence that applies to claims like the two mentioned above. If God exists the whole world is, indeed, evidence of his existence. But certainly more can be said.

What light does the MacBeth parable shed on the sorts of evidence we're looking for when we're looking for evidence of God's existence? What would evidence of God's existence even be like?

Where would one get this "evidence" of God and/or His existence? Wouldn't one be obliged to be at least "omnipotent" to do so? The sad fact is, that we are not. Then the question becomes, how would non-omnipotent, finite creatures, who cannot predict their own demise OR defeat death and live longer than they are destined to die, produce "evidence" of a God Who is hindered by NONE of what hinders us, finite creatures with matching finite, limited minds, who return to the dust from whence we came?

Thank you kindly.