The 4-point Calvinist's position - Nearer truth than full Calvinism or Arminianism?

[sdowney717]

"The verse implies" is the operative phrase in the first part of your post. That's exactly what I mean when I refer to "assumptions".

One could as easily take a verse such as 1 Tim. 4:10 and point to it's implications from the other side (as many do of course). "............we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

Such a verse could easily be used to explain 4 point Calvinism to a T.


This portion of your post addresses the depravity of man and the necessity and effective nature of the grace pointed to in the other 4 points. These concepts point to nothing concerning limited atonement.

5-pointers usually add things that are not in the scriptures regarding all that Christ purchased at His death and other such. They will tell us that Christ also purchased the regenerative power that allows the elect to be brought to belief. Without unwarranted additions like that, 4 point Calvinism is all that is needed. So the additional assumptions abound to make sure limited atonement is kept in the equation.

You and I should probably agree to disagree temporarily so that others can chime in a little bit without us dominating things totally. We will undoubtedly air these things more as we go along.

I know those who dont believe the doctrines of His favouring graces of particular redemption will be reading here, so we both know what will be in their mind, so I post in regard to what God has said, and maybe the Lord will be merciful to them opening their eyes to His words.

Jesus dies for the sheep given to Him by the Father and tells those who do not believe that they are not of His sheep. Most people believe the opposite of what Jesus says, that all people are the sheep and don’t consider that He knew them as the sheep from before the foundation of the earth. Scripturally there are only the sheep as in Heb it says Jesus is the Great Shepherd of THE sheep.

 

[sdowney717]

On hearing God speak, God must give someone ears to hear, else they wont hear.
All the sheep are His sheep. only the sheep hear Him speak.

John 10
2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me[a] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

If 'anyone enters BY ME', Jesus is the door of THE sheep, the anyone who enters are proven to be the sheep and no one else can get by Him for only the sheep follow Christ and only the sheep will be entering that doorway. Sure there are unsaved sheep but they will hear His voice and follow Jesus, for only the sheep follow Jesus. They prove they are the sheep because they hear their master's voice. God must give us ears to hear Him speak, otherwise they are not of the sheep and will not be saved.
We do not not get ears to hear God from ourselves, their is no universal prevenience of grace.

Jesus says HE dies for the sheep.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

So why do some hear His word while others do not hear?

Jesus clearly states why

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.



26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[b] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

If they were of His sheep being of the sheep who hear His voice and live, they would believe in Him but because they are not His sheep, they do not believe.

John 8
6 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

They reason they dont believe is they are not of the Father and so therefore they do not hear, and so therefore they are not of the sheep, and Jesus did not die for them. Jesus dies so that those who believe in Him will not perish. Jesus does not die for unbelievers.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God have His son to die so that whosoever believes wont die. God dd not give His son so that whosoever does not believe (the world ) will live. Only those who believe did Christ die for, and that for the sheep who God and Christ have chosen out of the world to believe and no one else.

 

[AndOne]

After reading sdowneys posts in this thread I don't have much to add to what he said - but I would like to point out that Calvin did indeed teach LA - contrary to what is said in an earlier post. Cut and pasted directly from the online version of Calvin's Insitutes, Book First, Chapter 7, para 5:

I do not dwell on this subject at present, because we will return to it again: only let us now understand that the only true faith is that which the Spirit of God seals on our hearts. Nay, the modest and teachable reader will find a sufficient reason in the promise contained in Isaiah, that all the children of the renovated Church “shall be taught of the Lord,” (Isaiah 54:13). This singular privilege God bestows on his elect only, whom he separates from the rest of mankind.

 

[Job8]

On hearing God speak, God must give someone ears to hear, else they wont hear.
All the sheep are His sheep. only the sheep hear Him speak.

I don't believe you will find anything about God giving some "ears to hear" in these Scriptures. But you will find again and again the admonition from the Lord "IF ANY MAN HAVE EARS TO HEAR, LET HIM HEAR". So the onus is on the hearers of the Gospel to hear as well as to respond.

What these Scriptures reveal is that Christ foreknows His sheep and He also foreknows who will not believe.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't believe you will find anything about God giving some "ears to hear" in these Scriptures. But you will find again and again the admonition from the Lord "IF ANY MAN HAVE EARS TO HEAR, LET HIM HEAR". So the onus is on the hearers of the Gospel to hear as well as to respond.

What these Scriptures reveal is that Christ foreknows His sheep and He also foreknows who will not believe.

Having ears to hear is not of ourselves.
They have been given ears to hear. We see that first in what Moses tells them.

2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

And for more reason why they do not believe in Him
The reason is 'to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed'
For the gospel can only come by revelation of Jesus Christ.
Otherwise, they can not believe in Him.

And John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[f]

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”[g]

41 These things Isaiah said when[h] he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Gal 1
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.


See here, the Lord dhooses when to reveal His Son in us. Praise be to you Oh Lord!, something good to rejoice in.

 

[sdowney717]

Paul uses his own conversion experience to say that what happened to him is as a pattern forthose who will believe in Christ, that is knowledge of the Holy One, the truth about Christ comes by Him revealing Himself into your heart, and this is not of ourselves, for without Him working in us, it is impossible to know Him.

Glory to God for His Grace

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.



14And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.


16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise,[a] be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[sdowney717]

Luke 10, Jesus says it is His choice ro reveal to us Himself and not our own choice to know God and Christ. Jesus says many desired to see Him and did not and they has been blessed and chosen to know Christ.



21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”


23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

 

[sdowney717]

Rmans 11


8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,

To this very day.”[a]


What is of interest is not only does God give ears to hear, God also has given ears that can not hear.


Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God. That means God is in control of the hearing. The word is a rhema word, so faith comes by hearing God speak.


Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the spoken living voice of God.


Those who hear Him will live. The living is in the hearing God speak.
John 5

4 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.


Only those who will hear are those who are being drawn to Christ by God.


35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”



43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me.

46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life.

 

[sdowney717]

Another rhema word of God is in this verse here,

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every (spoken by the living voice ) word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

It is God who speaks everything into existence by His word, and so He also gives life to the dead.

 

[Marvin Knox]

sdowney717

FIRST – THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF LIMITED ATONEMENT AND NOT A PRESENTATION OF CALVINISM IN GENERAL. PLEASE STAY ON TRACK.

SECOND:
You say well that Jesus laid down His life for His sheep (the ones the Father gave Him and who will hear his voice etc.) That is the description of just who are His sheep.


He also prays for the ones who the Father gave Him and only for them. These things are self evident from scripture. There is no need to convince anyone of that whether they be 4-point Calvinists or Arminians.


What is not said in any of these and other scriptures you could print is a statement that says that He did not die for anyone but His sheep (the ones the Father gives to Him; for whom He prayed; andwho will become evident in time by their belief).


That is the point of the wrongness of jumping to conclusions concerning who He diedfor (limited atonement) based on these scriptures.


You lay out the case for believing in many of the other 4 points here. But you do not lay out a case that shows that limited atonement is correct.


You say, “Only those who believe did Christ die for, and that for the sheep who God and Christ have chosen out of the world to believe and no one else.”


But your saying it doesn’t make it so. Nor does the many revered Calvinists who’s work I often draw on saying it make it so.


There were many years when I (and likely you as well) did not believer. Would you say that Christ did not die for you while you were in that condition (or actually 2000 years or so before your existence)? Of course not!


His dying for your sins made absolutely no difference in your status before God. That only came when you believed. The mechanism for your eventual belief is not in dispute (at least with you and me). No need to restate the other 4 points over and over again.


I believe that Christ died (2000 years or so ago) for me. Even so, I believe that I was worthy of Hell before I believed and was bound for Hell unless I came around and believed. If a meteorite struck me dead instantly while in that condition – I would end up in Hell. The fact that God would not have allowed that to happen because I am one of the elect is really immaterial to the discussion.


I believe that others (pick a name if you will – apparently Bill Maher perhaps?) have the same status as I had. Christ died for them and they are bound for Hell unless they come around and believe.


Who are limited atonement proponents to make the executive decision that that status cannot continue for eternity?


If an unbeliever doesn’t believe - he will go to Hell. If I had not believed I would have gone to Hell. It’s pretty clear.


As Reformed theology proponents, you and I know full well that God planned from eternity and executed in time something that eventually brought me around. The mechanism of bringing me to belief may be debated among Calvinists and Arminians. But my prior status shouldn’t be.

I was not saved and now I am (and that even though I have always been among the elect of God as I understand it).

 

[Marvin Knox]

Sdowney717

The rejection by Arminians of the concept of divine election is usually predicated on the supposed “unfairness” of it. (They are wrong in opinion.)


In a very similar way, 5-point Calvinists base the doctrine of limited atonement on their belief that it would be “unfair” for people for whom Christ died to spend eternity in Hell. They believe that Christ could not possibly suffer for those people and still demand that those people suffer as well.


Calvinists apparently believe they have an inside track on understanding what went on and will go on in eternity future between the Father and the Son vis a vis the bearing of sins. I claim to have no such complete understanding.


How it works that my “old man” is crucified and punished with Christ while my “new man” is resurrected and glorified – I do not know.


Just how the eternal wrath of the Father was and is meted out to the Son in time and eternity – I do not know.


What it means that Christ is seen within the throne of God as the ruling Lion and as the crucified Lamb - I do not know.


I know that my particular sins demand eternal damnation in fire for me. I fail to see how the guilt of the entire world’s sins would not demand at least that when Christ “became sin” for us. I’m pretty sure there is an eternal rift somehow within the heart of God because of the Father’s wrath against His Son. But I don’t understand how that works exactly.


And neither do Calvinists.


Is that rift “Hell”? Who can know?


Whether it is or not – is not the Word of God omnipresent in Hell as well in everything else sustained by God’s Word?


If all things in this age are summed up in Christ and handed back to the Father from whom are all things – will not the “old man” be summed up in the cursed Christ and the “new man” be summed up in the exalted Christ?


The unregenerate have no “new man” do they? - Only an old man.


The point of this sanctified rambling is to point out that these kinds of things are mysteries that we have no clear understanding of since God has only hinted at them in scripture.


5-pointers have no right to categorically say that unbelieving sinners cannot possibly be punished in some way in Jesus Christ who will eternally bear their sins along with them. I’m sorry if their imagination cannot grasp other possibilities other than their rather shallow understanding.


If I can come up with even one way that these things can be so (even though it is likely quite a way off the mark) – there is no need for doctrinal conclusions like full on limited atonement to be formulated by 5-point Calvinist.


Let the scriptures simply say what they appear to most readers to say. Christ bore the punishment for the sins of the world. If one will but have faith that Christ bore their particular sins – that person will be saved. That is the gospel.


It is my opinion that the unwarranted offense of “limited atonement” being removed would perhaps at least give those of us who understand the sovereignty of God in all things that happen a fighting chance at explaining the other 4-points concerning sovereign grace to any disciples we may teaching.

 

[Albion]

I prefer to think of limited atonement as a definite redemption where Christ offering up an atoning sacrifice actually accomplishes something wonderful, our being saved versus it just being an uncertain possibility.


Definite redemption, sometimes called "particular redemption," "effective atonement," and "limited atonement," is an historic Reformed doctrine about the intention of the triune God in the death of Jesus Christ. Without doubting the infinite worth of Christ's sacrifice or the genuineness of God's "whoever will" invitation to all who hear the gospel (Rev. 22:17), the doctrine states that the death of Christ actually put away the sins of all God's elect and ensured that they would be brought to faith through regeneration and kept in faith for glory, and that this is what it was intended to achieve. From this definiteness and effectiveness follows its limitedness: Christ did not die in this efficacious sense for everyone. The proof of that, as Scripture and experience unite to teach us, is that not all are saved.
The only possible alternatives are (a) actual universalism, holding that Christ's death guaranteed salvation for every member of the human race, past, present, and future, or (b) hypothetical universalism, holding that Christ's death made salvation possible for everyone but actual only for those who add to it a response of faith and repentance that was not secured by it.

That's about the way I see it. IOW, limited atonement is virtually 'built in' to the other four points.

 

[AndOne]

That's about the way I see it. IOW, limited atonement is virtually 'built in' to the other four points.

I was thinking the same thing while reading through this thread. Seems to me that election in particular goes hand in hand with LA - not sure how one can believe one without the other.

 

[sdowney717]

There exist a strong case in the words of Christ saying He dies for the sheep to really mean He dies for them.
So we can be very certain Jesus dies for the sheep, an indissoluble bond exists between the shepherd and His sheep but not certain at all that Jesus dies for the goats, serpents, foxes, etc... of mankind, who really just dont care do they. Or if they do care it is to hate both Christ and us.
They do not feel for Christ, they dont desire Him, pine for, miss or love Jesus, unless He begins a work in them, If Christ died for them it does not make any difference at all to them or for them as when they are dead and dying they will die. The only difference between us who believe and them that dont is that because of His great love for us, thiose He foreknew from before the foundation of the earth He makes us alive who were dead.


15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Heb 13
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you[d] what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[sdowney717]

The atonement of the OT was to and for the people of God that the Lord had brought out from Egypt to be His own special treasure set apart for the LORD, chosen out from all peoples all over the earth. This goes way back to God's promise to Abraham that he would have a son and that by a supernatural miracle of God and not according to the flesh.


Here is Israel

Deuteronomy 7:6
“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

There was never an atonement for sins outside of the chosen people of God to all the world.

Leviticus 9:7

7 And Moses said to Aaron, “Go to the altar, offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement for yourself and for the people. Offer the offering of the people, and make atonement for them, as the Lord commanded.”



This was why when certain chosen gentiles received the Holy Spirit in Acts, it was such a shock to the early church made only of the Jews. So Peter said, who am I to resist God? Wow, God has granted repentance unto life extended to the gentiles, which was God's plan all along.



Romans 3



21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation (ATONEMENT) by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


This propitiation (atonement) by His blood is only for those who are of faith in Jesus.



Since the world has none, no faith in Jesus, Can they have an atonement by His shed blood?


Recall that FAITH comes by hearing God speak.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Some view of limited atonement is believed by Arminians and Calvinists alike. In fact it is believed by virtually every Bible believing person. We all believe that, in the end, effective salvation is only going to happen for some and not all. If we define atonement as effective eternal salvation then – we all must believe in limited atonement in some sense of the words.


But that very simple concept is not what is meant by 5-point Calvinists as can clearly be seen by reading “sdowney’s” posts as a for instance – not to pick on any one person (these examples are just here in this thread for us to readily refer to).


If it was just that concept no one would have trouble with believing and talking about limited atonement - even the Arminians.


The real fact is that every concept expressed in Calvinism is “built in” and “goes hand in hand” with the very notion of an omniscient and omnipresent God who creates, sustains, and predestines all things that He creates according to His wise plan - as presented in the scriptures. I’ve always said that.


What is in dispute in full on limited atonement is whether the atonement would be sufficient to eternally forgive every sinner on earth if any particular person you could name believed the gospel. (Forget for the moment whether that is likely to happen.) In the doctrine of limited atonement, Christ did not bear the sins of some people. (That is the offensive part to so many.)

All the belief in the world would do no good for those people. If the atonement was not for them, their sins can never be forgiven even if, by some amazing unimaginable feat, they somehow managed to believe the message of the gospel.


Limited atonement proponents usually throw in the caveat that Christ’s atoning work was of sufficient worth to forgive anyone’s sins. But that is just playing with words to cover the bases. The truth is that it is not sufficient if He didn’t atone for all sins. You can’t have it both ways.


If the cursed Christ took all the sins in the world on Himself and God added the caveat that belief is necessary for justification – then the atonement is sufficient for all who will believe. On the other hand – if the cursed Christ only took certain sins on Himself and God added the caveat that belief is necessary for justification – than the atonement is not sufficient for all who believe. Your sins have to be borne by Christ or all the belief in the world won’t help you.


The truth is that Arminians and 4-pointers are the ones who believe that Christ’s atonement is sufficient.


5-pointers do not. I profoundly disagree with them!


If limited atonement is included, as in the 5 points, it would not be a true statement that His atonement is sufficient. But when it is excluded – it is a true statement that the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all who will believe.


No wonder 5-point Calvinism is so offensive to so many.


The only reason for giving that offense is that you don’t believe that Christ could die for the sins of a person and that person join Him in Hell. I don’t believe that is good logic. I can envision many ways that that could happen.


Find a statement that lays out that this would be unfair and cannot be or leave off teaching the offensive doctrine of limited atonement. It is only flawed human logic that demands limited atonement – not God’s Word IMO.


**AND - There is no need to keep restating the other points of T.U.L.I.P. We Reformed believers already believe them.

 

[sdowney717]

(my quote button is broken, I just get blank pages)

Atonement should be understood by definition, what it does. Otherwise to me it is a nebulous philosophical concept not grounded or rooted in scripture. The atonement is a limited atonement.
But the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism, is the A's beieve all are called to be saved, and the C's believe God only calls some. AFAIK that is what A's believe.
If A's believe God calls all, then of course the whole world is atoned for.

But if you believe God does not call all to a saving faith, then the atonement must only be limited to those He calls, otherwise it is inconsistent illogical, and for the reasons I already mentioned in other posts, uncertain as to what it actually does, being just an obscure possibility.

The practical understanding of a limited atonement does not impact any of what God does in Himself, all it does is help us understand what He does and why He does what He does in saving us, that we are His, purchased by His blood, and that is real and effectual and wonderful.

1 Peter 2
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[AndOne]

The only reason for giving that offense is that you don’t believe that Christ could die for the sins of a person and that person join Him in Hell. I don’t believe that is good logic. I can envision many ways that that could happen.

this statement makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. Can you elaborate on it? At this point I'm starting to wonder if you fully understand the Reformed teaching of LA. Have you read Dort on this and checked it's Biblical basis for it?

 

[sdowney717]

Limited atonement

In the Canons of Dort:

For it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of his Son's costly death should work itself out in all his chosen ones, in order that he might grant justifying faith to them only and thereby lead them without fail to salvation. In other words, it was God's will that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which he confirmed the new covenant) should effectively redeem from every people, tribe, nation, and language all those and only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation and given to him by the Father; that he should grant them faith (which, like the Holy Spirit's other saving gifts, he acquired for them by his death); that he should cleanse them by his blood from all their sins, both original and actual, whether committed before or after their coming to faith; that he should faithfully preserve them to the very end; and that he should finally present them to himself, a glorious people, without spot or wrinkle. (Christ's Death and Human Redemption Through It, Article 8)^[9]^
In the Westminster Confession:

God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit does, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them. (Chapter 11 Paragraph 4)^[10]^

 

[AndOne]

Limited atonement

In the Canons of Dort:

For it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of his Son's costly death should work itself out in all his chosen ones, in order that he might grant justifying faith to them only and thereby lead them without fail to salvation. In other words, it was God's will that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which he confirmed the new covenant) should effectively redeem from every people, tribe, nation, and language all those and only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation and given to him by the Father; that he should grant them faith (which, like the Holy Spirit's other saving gifts, he acquired for them by his death); that he should cleanse them by his blood from all their sins, both original and actual, whether committed before or after their coming to faith; that he should faithfully preserve them to the very end; and that he should finally present them to himself, a glorious people, without spot or wrinkle. (Christ's Death and Human Redemption Through It, Article 8)^[9]^

I'm thinking he should read all of it including the Bible references and rejection of errors.