the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[MormonFriend]

Just reading along as you two post. It would seem that if an orthodox doesn't lean on their sinful nature, they feel they are robing God of grace. That sounds a bit off, but it's the drift I get.
To agree that we should strive to be all that Jesus called us to be, doesn't enter the picture somehow.
Sorry for interrupting, carry on.

Adding your thoughts are no interruption. Thanks!

 

[peebly63]

I truly wish that I understood what is meant when you say us being sinless. Once we have sinned, we cannot turn back the clock and erase it. We are tarnished and stained, even if a person only commits one single sin. (I doubt that has ever been, but just for illustration.) We can "sin no more", but we can never become sinless.

But our sins can be cleansed, and the demands of justice have been satisfied by Christ, who purchased us if we repent. It is impossible to cleanse us if we still wallow in the muck of sin that stains us. We must choose to deny ourselves and come out of the muck. We must loose the desire for sin, and that can only happen if something takes its place, namely a love for God with all our heart, mind, might and strength. That love will only develop if we prime the pump, so to speak. If you do not fully understand what it means to prime the pump, google it. The works that Jesus gave us to do are, by design, the enabling primer. With devoted attention to His works, we can become converted to the joy that these works bring us, if we will allow the refining influence of works to remove our pride. That joy will replace any and all desire to sin. Jesus said that when we sin, we are the servants of sin. That is bondage! We must be rescued or "saved" from that bondage!

I said that those who chose to believe, and demonstrate that belief by doing the will and works of God are separated by those who have wishy washy belief who deny that works are necessary. (No offense intended, as I realize it could come across that way. The real offense would be to not speak in truth, and this is what I understand as truth.)

We are not saved until the end, because enduring to the end is a written definition of salvation. We can have assurance that we are on the protected path that leads us to salvation, but we must remain on that path. Sin takes us off that path, and if not repented of will alter our understandings of the things of God as well.

you seem to mixing what gets you saved and what keeps you saved.

we are all tarnished as you said but only until we are cleaned by the blood then we have the righteousness of Jesus as a free gift, God sees us without blemish, the problem i see from your stand point is that we need to keep being perfect, without any sin, after being saved because sinning after being saved showed you were not truly saved.

that makes Grace pointless . if its a free gift but now you have to be perfect what was the free gift all about, what was it worth, what use and again we are reliant on keeping all the laws for our salvation which we know we cannot do, again that does not make the covenant of Grace any more glorious than the law.

so are we coming slowly to the real truth for lds which is, the blood of Jesus pays for all the original sin which is adams but we are accountable for our own sins and that is why we must live perfect and blameless life to remain saved and heading for the celestial kingdom.

 

[Norah63]

See how shying away from sin in any way seems to 'take something away from grace'?
They see no one as accountable for their own sins, or works, after they consider them selves saved by believing. The 'be ye perfect', to orthodox, means grace alone, no human part.
If it is a mis-communication or not I cannot say.
The division in the understanding of a joining of ourselves with the Holy Spirit guidance.

 

[peebly63]

See how shying away from sin in any way seems to 'take something away from grace'?
They see no one as accountable for their own sins, or works, after they consider them selves saved by believing. The 'be ye perfect', to orthodox, means grace alone, no human part.
If it is a mis-communication or not I cannot say.
The division in the understanding of a joining of ourselves with the Holy Spirit guidance.

Grace is knowing who saved you, how and a what cost, if you want to beat yourself up daily by doing your best, failing then crying woe is me you carry on.

Grace does not mean I will go out and sin because I can, Grace means I will do my best because i realise the price paid for me but i know ultimately what i do wrong will not separate me from the love of God.

the curtain has been torn apart, the separation from God removed, I no longer need a human high priest to say to God he is so sorry for sinning, no longer do I need to give a sacrifice to say sorry to God and please forgive me because the ultimate sacrifice, the once and for all sacrifice has been paid, the blood of bulls once paid for your sins for a year, if you sinned during that year you knew God forgave you, they were paid for, so how come suddenly the Blood of the saviour is so weak that we have to rely on our own behaviour in case it out weighs the blood of Jesus.

again if we can somehow damage our own salvation by behaviour how is the new covenant any more glorious.

Romans 8:38-39King James Version (KJV)

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Norah63]

See how the first two sentences are saying the same thing, in two diffrent ways?
When looking at the first one they see 'the other guy'.
In the second they see themselves.

 

[peebly63]

See how the first two sentences are saying the same thing, in two diffrent ways?
When looking at the first one they see 'the other guy'.
In the second they see themselves.

I haven't got a clue what you are on about but instead of the snide sniping you might try to explain yourself.

 

[RevelationTestament]

See how the first two sentences are saying the same thing, in two diffrent ways?
When looking at the first one they see 'the other guy'.

Grace is knowing who saved you, how and a what cost, if you want to beat yourself up daily by doing your best, failing then crying woe is me you carry on.

In the second they see themselves.

Grace does not mean I will go out and sin because I can, Grace means I will do my best because i realise the price paid for me but i know ultimately what i do wrong will not separate me from the love of God.

I think you are on to something!

 

[peebly63]

I think you are on to something!

still hiding.

is it the lds position that Jesus died for the sins of adam and the the individual is responsible for their own sins and the payment of those sins?

 

[peebly63]

See how the first two sentences are saying the same thing, in two diffrent ways?
When looking at the first one they see 'the other guy'.
In the second they see themselves.

didn't you say you was ex lds?

 

[Norah63]

You picked right up on that Revelation.
I thought it was pretty clear to see.
We tend to see ourselves in a much different light than how we see the 'other fellow'.
I don't think a title has to be put on Christians. Fellowship is important in many places.

 

[MormonFriend]

...

Grace does not mean I will go out and sin because I can, Grace means I will do my best because i realise the price paid for me ...

But the problem is that we do not know or understand what our best is! We have never done this before. We must face our weaknesses with faith and belief, because as Jesus said, all things are possible to those who believe. We deny faith when we conclude that it is impossible to do what God has asked (required actually) of us. God gave us two important promises. He will never allow us to be tempted greater than we can bear, and He has prepared a way that we can escape any temptation. So what excuse do we really have?

... but i know ultimately what i do wrong will not separate me from the love of God.
...

It is not God's love for us that is in question for our separation. It is our love for God that needs some improvement. If we follow His Word, our love can become perfect. And Grace protects us as we fail at time in that pursuit, if we acknowledge our sins and forsake them.

Love is grand when it is given. Love is supreme when it is returned, and that is what brings God the greatest joy. We couldn't love Him if He did not love us first.

It is clear that there are standards and expectations for dwelling with the Father in His glory. Jesus declared one of them in Luke 9: 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (Does that sound like Grace alone?) If we do not take full advantage of life's opportunities to perfect our love (even if we do not finish the task as long as we do not give up by saying "we can't do that", our devotion to improvement will eventually take us to that perfection), if we do not utilize this advantage of learning as we dwell on earth, we will not be fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[MormonFriend]

you seem to mixing what gets you saved and what keeps you saved. ...

We are saved from evil, all aspects and results of it. We are freed from it. We are not free if we are in bondage to it. To say our sins are somehow absorbed by the righteousness of Jesus does not unbind that bondage if we are still sinning. His gift of free will is one of the fruits of His Grace. That free will enables us to turn from sin, but we must choose which we love more. The sin or Jesus. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." We love Him when we serve Him.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

We cannot serve two masters, we must choose. That choice defines our belief, the very belief that produces a saving fatih!

His Grace enables us to overcome sin. His Grace does NOT mask our sins.

(Comments removed in edit for re clarification)

... that makes Grace pointless . if its a free gift but now you have to be perfect what was the free gift all about, what was it worth, what use and again we are reliant on keeping all the laws for our salvation which we know we cannot do, again that does not make the covenant of Grace any more glorious than the law. ...

The works that Jesus requires of us do not make Grace any less free. How could it when Jesus declared the requirement of these works, and taught that His Grace is free? Works have no saving properties. But they do prepare us to receive His Grace and salvation.

Dad buys a new car for his son, all paid for. He says this car is for you, but you must learn to drive it properly before you receive the keys. I am requiring you to take a special driving course that will assure your commitment to use this car within the parameters by which it was designed. This will assure that you will not damage the car, yourself, and others around you. It is evil to stray out of the parameters that are designed in this car. When you get an A+ in the driving course, both written and hands on training, the keys are yours. If you fail, I will be merciful and allow you to repeat the course and I will pay for as many courses as it takes for you to get it right. If you truly value this gift, you will make any and all personal sacrifices to pass the course.

Does the son's efforts to pass the course in any way pay for the car?

 

[Norah63]

The 'we' and 'us' gets the discussion back into a united effort to comprehend the truth that can set us free.
If 'we' will. And that is daily displaying our love of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Grace is a gift. Allowing its fruit in 'us' is our choice or will.

 

[peebly63]

So again if we are not freed from the results of our sin , what did the blood of Jesus pay for?

do the lds really believe the blood of Jesus atones for the sins of adam but the individual has to atone for his own sins by doing works.

that seems to be the crux of it.

 

[Norah63]

May I ask, is displaying our love and devotion to our Lord Jesus considered a 'work'?
If it is not a 'work' but a fruit of the grace in us, then our producing it comes from us.
It is very hard to take one partner out of a marriage and still have union.
If this doesnt make sense then I shall bow out gracefully.

 

[MormonFriend]

So again if we are not freed from the results of our sin , what did the blood of Jesus pay for?

do the lds really believe the blood of Jesus atones for the sins of adam but the individual has to atone for his own sins by doing works.

that seems to be the crux of it.

Answer my last question in post #212, and your question here is answered.

 

[peebly63]

We are saved from evil, all aspects and results of it. We are freed from it. We are not free if we are in bondage to it. To say our sins are somehow absorbed by the righteousness of Jesus does not unbind that bondage if we are still sinning. His gift of free will is one of the fruits of His Grace. That free will enables us to turn from sin, but we must choose which we love more. The sin or Jesus. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." We love Him when we serve Him.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

We cannot serve two masters, we must choose. That choice defines our belief, the very belief that produces a saving fatih!

His Grace enables us to overcome sin. His Grace does NOT mask our sins.

(Comments removed in edit for re clarification)



The works that Jesus requires of us do not make Grace any less free. How could it when Jesus declared the requirement of these works, and taught that His Grace is free? Works have no saving properties. But they do prepare us to receive His Grace and salvation.

Dad buys a new car for his son, all paid for. He says this car is for you, but you must learn to drive it properly before you receive the keys. I am requiring you to take a special driving course that will assure your commitment to use this car within the parameters by which it was designed. This will assure that you will not damage the car, yourself, and others around you. It is evil to stray out of the parameters that are designed in this car. When you get an A+ in the driving course, both written and hands on training, the keys are yours. If you fail, I will be merciful and allow you to repeat the course and I will pay for as many courses as it takes for you to get it right. If you truly value this gift, you will make any and all personal sacrifices to pass the course.

Does the son's efforts to pass the course in any way pay for the car?

here we go again, you are saying we are only free from sin if we stop sinning, so you are relying on your own works, you are relying on your ability to never sin, ever again because if you do any sin will separate you from God.

you are still in law.

it is exactly as I said you think the blood of Jesus atones for the sin of adam but your own behaviour must account for the atonement of the rest of your sins.

Again how is this any better than the law covenant, how is that in any way any more glorious.

why doesn't the blood pay for all sins, how come it only atones for adam's sin?

by the way your car analogy is a little odd because Jesus has given us an instant pass, his blood his sacrifice.

going back to the car though, if the son felt guilty about his dad buying him this car and went back to the car dealer and said "hey i would like too pay for this car myself", what would they say, "that's not possible the car is paid for, its yours" , the son can wreck the car, he could push it off a cliff if he wanted, he could sell it and put it towards another car but the car would always have been paid for in full, the person gives the gift, it is up to the person what they do with the gift, you cannot legally bind someone to look after something you give them.

 

[MormonFriend]

here we go again, you are saying we are only free from sin if we stop sinning, so you are relying on your own works, you are relying on your ability to never sin, ever again because if you do any sin will separate you from God.

you are still in law.

it is exactly as I said you think the blood of Jesus atones for the sin of adam but your own behaviour must account for the atonement of the rest of your sins.

Again how is this any better than the law covenant, how is that in any way any more glorious.

why doesn't the blood pay for all sins, how come it only atones for adam's sin?

by the way your car analogy is a little odd because Jesus has given us an instant pass, his blood his sacrifice.

going back to the car though, if the son felt guilty about his dad buying him this car and went back to the car dealer and said "hey i would like too pay for this car myself", what would they say, "that's not possible the car is paid for, its yours" , the son can wreck the car, he could push it off a cliff if he wanted, he could sell it and put it towards another car but the car would always have been paid for in full, the person gives the gift, it is up to the person what they do with the gift, you cannot legally bind someone to look after something you give them.

How can we discuss this issue if you will not respond and address the many scriptures I have already presented, and that do not fit the conclusions you draw?

Perhaps we should do one scripture at a time, and you tell me how it harmonizes instead of clashes with your beliefs.

Jesus said ALL things are possible to those who believe.
You declare that it is NOT possible to keep all of His commandments.

I see a clashing discrepancy there. Please discuss this issue.

 

[drstevej]

ALL things are possible to those who believe

• Can you high jump 12 feet?
• Run a mile in 12 seconds?
• Memorize the entire Salt Lake City phone book in an afternoon?

If not, then shall we conclude you are not a believer?

 

[drstevej]

The BoM says we are saved by grace after ALL we can do. If a believer can do all things including perfect obedience... then if you ever sin you are excluded from grace and salvation.

Your view is self defeating.