When do we go from innocent to wicked?

[Neogaia777]

When do we go from innocent to wicked, at what age or what point in life do we start to be held responsible by God for our actions or inactions

We say that babies and infants and some children are "innocent" What I want to know, is at which point in our lives can we be declared "guilty" or become wicked? At what point does that happen?

God Bless!

 

[Davian]

Never, if gods are only characters in books. It does appear that way.

 

[Neogaia777]

Never, if gods are only characters in books. It does appear that way.

So, your innocent of any wrongdoing then?

 

[Davian]

So, your innocent of any wrongdoing then?

From a theological standpoint, yes.

 

[Neogaia777]

From a theological standpoint, yes.

What do you mean "From a theological standpoint, yes" How are you innocent from a theological standpoint? You don't even believe in God or the Bible, do you?

Also, if you have done any wrongdoing FROM ANY STANDPOINT, then you're guilty of something that has to be accounted for...

God Bless!

 

[Davian]

What do you mean "From a theological standpoint, yes" How are you innocent from a theological standpoint? You don't even believe in God or the Bible, do you?

Also, if you have done any wrongdoing FROM ANY STANDPOINT, then you're guilty of something that has to be accounted for...

God Bless!

I am not accountable to gods that do not exist.

 

[Neogaia777]

I am not accountable to gods that do not exist.

Then how can you say you are innocent from a theological standpoint, you don't believe in, or have a theology, do you?

Then I'll ask you the same questions that I asked and posted in "Ask an Atheist anything" thread:

Do you believe Jesus was a real person, that he existed and walked the earth in the time period that history records, and performing miralces, and signs and wonders...

Do you believe Jesus was a real person and had supernatural abilities, the power of God?

Do you believe all the witnesses who testify about Jesus are all involved in some kind of divine conspiracy, or something. Do you think they had reason to lie about the things they saw and heard about Jesus?

God Bless!

 

[Davian]

Then how can you say you are innocent from a theological standpoint, you don't believe in, or have a theology, do you?

I do have a theological position, which is that the only gods that I am aware of are characters in books. Ignosticism, if you like.

Then I'll ask you the same questions that I asked and posted in "Ask an Atheist anything" thread:

Do you believe Jesus was a real person, that he existed and walked the earth in the time period that history records, and performing miralces, and signs and wonders...

I do not accept the premise that "history records" any of that. It is my understanding that the bible does not meet the criteria for being a "historical document".

Do you believe Jesus was a real person and had supernatural abilities, the power of God?

I will grant you that the "Jesus" character in the bible was probably based on a real person, or an amalgamation of several real persons that lived at that time. What this person or persons were capable of is a matter of speculation.

Do you believe all the witnesses who testify about Jesus are all involved in some kind of divine conspiracy, or something. Do you think they had reason to lie about the things they saw and heard about Jesus?

It is my understanding that we do not have the testimony of these alleged witnesses; all we have a stories handed down orally, only to be written down anonymously many years after the alleged events. Even today, in current courtrooms, witness' testimony is considered unreliable without corroborating empirical evidence.

 

[Smidlee]

When do we go from innocent to wicked, at what age or what point in life do we start to be held responsible by God for our actions or inactions

We say that babies and infants and some children are "innocent" What I want to know, is at which point in our lives can we be declared "guilty" or become wicked? At what point does that happen?

God Bless!

Are you referring to the age of accountability? When it comes to USA it's the age of 18. When it comes to when someone is required personally to accept Christ that age is determine by God on an individual bases. The more given unto you the more that is required.

 

[Neogaia777]

I do have a theological position, which is that the only gods that I am aware of are characters in books. Ignosticism, if you like.

I do not accept the premise that "history records" any of that. It is my understanding that the bible does not meet the criteria for being a "historical document".

I will grant you that the "Jesus" character in the bible was probably based on a real person, or an amalgamation of several real persons that lived at that time. What this person or persons were capable of is a matter of speculation.

It is my understanding that we do not have the testimony of these alleged witnesses; all we have a stories handed down orally, only to be written down anonymously many years after the alleged events. Even today, in current courtrooms, witness' testimony is considered unreliable without corroborating empirical evidence.

Well, I disagree with you on many points, but I want to concentrate on one area: Your "theology"...

I would like you to clarify something about your beliefs, Ignosticism, am I right in assuming that they believe in a God, but they reject...

Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that every theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts;

They reject almost all writings about him as human assumptions, and therefore, they could be in error, still doesn't explain away (disprove) the existence of Jesus Christ, nor his supernatural abilities that no one was lying about...

Do you believe or not that JESUS WORDS assumed to much, or that he lied or was making assumptions about God, (or anything for that matter)?

If you believe in God and you just believe that some of the writers had it wrong, then what is your God like, and how do you know (him)? Can your god be known? If so, how?

God Bless!

 

[Davian]

Well, I disagree with you on many points, but I want to concentrate on one area: Your "theology"...

I do not have a theology, I have a theological postion.

I would like you to clarify something about your beliefs, Ignosticism, am I right in assuming that they believe in a God, but they reject...

Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that every theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts;

Ignosticism is an atheistic position.

They reject almost all writings about him as human assumptions, and therefore, they could be in error, still doesn't explain away (disprove) the existence of Jesus Christ, nor his supernatural abilities that no one was lying about...

Ignosticism puts the burden of proof on the religionist to define and substantiate what they mean by "god/God".

Do you believe or not that JESUS WORDS assumed to much, or that he lied or was making assumptions about God, (or anything for that matter)?

It is my understanding that scholars are unable to agree upon what words in the bible are actually those of Jesus, from what I gather from works such as the Jesus project and Jesus Seminar; some of what Jesus has been claimed to have said may be complete fabrications or a compilation of stories of multiple individuals.

For scholars, a combustible question: Was Christ real? | Toronto Star

If you believe in God and you just believe that some of the writers had it wrong, then what is your God like, and how do you know (him)? Can your god be known? If so, how?

I do not "believe" in a god. The only gods that I am aware of are characters in books.

 

[Neogaia777]

I do not have a theology, I have a theological postion.

Ignosticism is an atheistic position.

Ignosticism puts the burden of proof on the religionist to define and substantiate what they mean by "god/God".


It is my understanding that scholars are unable to agree upon what words in the bible are actually those of Jesus, from what I gather from works such as the Jesus project and Jesus Seminar; some of what Jesus has been claimed to have said may be complete fabrications or a compilation of stories of multiple individuals.

For scholars, a combustible question: Was Christ real? | Toronto Star

I do not "believe" in a god. The only gods that I am aware of are characters in books.

I will pray that you have an undeniable encounter in this life with God in your life. an encounter that will give you clear evidence of the supernatural, so that you cannot deny it, just as I had in my life...

God Bless!

 

[Davian]

I will pray that you have an undeniable encounter in this life with God in your life. an encounter that will give you clear evidence of the supernatural, so that you cannot deny it, just as I had in my life...

God Bless!

I do not deny it, I am just not convinced. Do not put words in my mouth.

 

[Neogaia777]

Could we get back to the original question please...

God Bless!

 

[True Scotsman]

When do we go from innocent to wicked, at what age or what point in life do we start to be held responsible by God for our actions or inactions

We say that babies and infants and some children are "innocent" What I want to know, is at which point in our lives can we be declared "guilty" or become wicked? At what point does that happen?

God Bless!

We become wicked the precise moment when we consciously do something that we know to be wrong. We are not accountable as Davian said to imaginary supernatural beings.

 

[RDKirk]

When do we go from innocent to wicked, at what age or what point in life do we start to be held responsible by God for our actions or inactions

We say that babies and infants and some children are "innocent" What I want to know, is at which point in our lives can we be declared "guilty" or become wicked? At what point does that happen?

God Bless!

"Age of innocence" appears to be one of those urban legends of Christianity. I've never seen anywhere in scripture where it was asserted that babies are born innocent. Rather:

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. --Psalm 51

Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward -- Psalm 58

We bear the sin of self-worship from Adam.

...you are slaves of the one you obey. -- Romans 16

A newborn baby is already a slave--already obedient to and mastered by--its flesh. It's born with its flesh as its own idol. So, no, not even the newborn is "innocent." It still needs a savior from its idolatry to its own flesh.

However, it also appears clear to me from many passages that God takes a person's knowledge of Him into account in His judgments. IOW, God judges "how you walked in the light that you had."

And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left.-- Jonah 4

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. -- Luke 12

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would be innocent; but because you claim you can see, your guilt remains." -- John 9:41

This contrasts with the doomed inhabitants of Jericho--who had knowlege of God that they refused to heed:

Before the men lay down, Rahab came up to them on the roof 9 and said to the men, “I know that the Lord has given you the land, and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you.

For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction.

And as soon as we heard it, our hearts melted, and there was no spirit left in any man because of you, for the Lord your God, he is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. -- Joshua 2

So we can't say that infants are innocent, not even from birth. But we can say that they are ignorant of God, and that God does not destroy the ignorant.

 

[Neogaia777]

We become wicked the precise moment when we consciously do something that we know to be wrong.

When we make a true free will "choice", of consciously doing something that we know to be wrong (I guess your saying in your heart or in your conscience), making a choice to do bad, at what age does this start happening, can a child become guilty?

Now we know we all become guilty eventually, but thanks to Jesus it's all paid for and forgiven, and you get to choose a new personality, perhaps one that is innocent and pure out of gratitude, becoming born again...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

A newborn baby is already a slave--already obedient to and mastered by--its flesh. It's born with its flesh as its own idol. So, no, not even the newborn is "innocent." It still needs a savior from its idolatry to its own flesh.


So we can't say that infants are innocent, not even from birth. But we can say that they are ignorant of God, and that God does not destroy the ignorant.

You have shown that we are sinful from birth and that all are in the need of a savior to redeem us. and answered my question from scripture, thanks

Does that mean babies make conscious choices then? Can a baby be judged?

Maybe god tolerates sin more as we are immature, and less as we mature.

age of innocence should be referred to as age of accountability Can a baby be held accountable? At what age or stage are we held accountable?

God Bless!

 

[RDKirk]

You have shown that we are sinful from birth and that all are in the need of a savior to redeem us. and answered my question from scripture, thanks

Does that mean babies make conscious choices then? Can a baby be judged?

Maybe god tolerates sin more as we are immature, and less as we mature.

age of innocence should be referred to as age of accountability Can a baby be held accountable? At what age or stage are we held accountable?

God Bless!

Given that all are sinful from birth, yes, an infant would be judged. But as I pointed, out, God's judgment is termpered by His mercy toward ignorance.

Since God refused to judge the Ninevites--who had actually done considerable evil--before they had a chance to hear a witness of Him, then we can expect that He would show at least the same mercy to an infant.

There is no "point" of accountablity for a given person that we as humans can detect. As Jesus said:

The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. -- Luke 12

 

[Neogaia777]

Since God refused to judge the Ninevites--who had actually done considerable evil--before they had a chance to hear a witness of Him, then we can expect that He would show at least the same mercy to an infant.
[/COLOR] -- Luke 12

We must keep in mind what really saved Ninevah, was that all of them from the least to the greatest, took the warning of Jonah to heart, (and probably acknowledged that Jonah's God was the superior to their god's for the God of Israel had a reputation by then, and they feared Jonah's Israelite God) and put on sackcloth and ashes, fasted, and repented from the smallest to the greatest of them, of all the bad deeds they have done...

My question would be though, how long did the repentance of Ninevah last, did some go immediately back to their sins, Did some, or all truly change their ways? Does the Bible tell us, if it does I can't find it...

God Bless!