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Any secular justification for "Defense of Marriage"?

Roonwit

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Marius27 said:
Where does Paul say men who sleep with men in Greek? The word Paul used has never in classical literature referred to that. And had Paul actually wanted to refer to same-sex behavior, he already had two perfectly good Greek words to use, yet he chose neither one of them. You have no clue what you're talking about.
Ummm, this thread does seem to have wandered off topic, but as a point of accuracy the two words used in 1 Cor 6 are, I understand, generally assumed to refer to the active and passive homosexual partners. Even if not, what do you think Paul is discussing in Romans 1? Moreover, the Jewish Law is pretty clearly against homosexual relations, and both Jesus and Paul do not depart from the Law on sexual ethics; if anything, they intensify it.

So, regardless of your attitude to homosexuality in the present, the claim that the Bible writers were not against it is on pretty dodgy ground.

Roonwit
 
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WindStaff

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Where does Paul say men who sleep with men in Greek? The word Paul used has never in classical literature referred to that. And had Paul actually wanted to refer to same-sex behavior, he already had two perfectly good Greek words to use, yet he chose neither one of them. You have no clue what you're talking about.

I don't believe you've ever made a post to me basically saying 'you don't know anything'.

And yet, every time you do, you fail to show it.
I put much more stock into the translators then liberals who, by trade, try to conform the scriptures to their beliefs.
That is exactly why liberals do not have one single thing, at all, period, nothing, contrary to their liberal beliefs and their religious beliefs.

It wouldn't matter even if the Bible had nothing to say at all about homosexuality. What matters very much is that Moses believed it was sinful, and all the descendants of the Israelites, the disciples, the saints, the church fathers, and all the theologians universally from then until now. They'd be appalled by an idea of same sex marriage. Stop fooling yourselves.

I don't actually need to prove it anymore then I need to prove the sky is blue, ALL OF HISTORY DICTATES THAT YOU ARE WRONG. Anyone who supports homosexual marriage is against the morals of God, plain and simple.

So crowd pleasing comments like this, which is a broken record across the board:

I disagree and I will continue to stand up against those who use the Bible and God as justification for their extreme hatred and bigotry.

mean absolutely jack to me, especially someone who claims to believe in the Abrahamic God. I rather find it a bit pathetic to be honest.
 
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WoundedDeep

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mean absolutely jack to me, especially someone who claims to believe in the Abrahamic God. I rather find it a bit pathetic to be honest.

If a person is not responding well to your words, walk away. Remember what the Lord said: "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
 
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Eudaimonist

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If a person is not responding well to your words, walk away. Remember what the Lord said: "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

Lovely. Let's compare others to dogs and pigs in "mixed company". That's real class.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ummm, this thread does seem to have wandered off topic, but as a point of accuracy the two words used in 1 Cor 6 are, I understand, generally assumed to refer to the active and passive homosexual partners. Even if not, what do you think Paul is discussing in Romans 1? Moreover, the Jewish Law is pretty clearly against homosexual relations, and both Jesus and Paul do not depart from the Law on sexual ethics; if anything, they intensify it.

So, regardless of your attitude to homosexuality in the present, the claim that the Bible writers were not against it is on pretty dodgy ground.

Roonwit

The relevant Greek words that Paul uses are arsenokoites and malakos. The former is a hapax legomenon, a word found so rarely that it occurs only occasionally within a single author's writings. There exists no contemporary writing or pre-Pauline writing that includes "arsenokoites". Commentators and translators have never had any agreement as to what this word meant as Paul used it. Hundreds of years after Paul the word is used in Christian penitentials in reference to what the people of the time regarded as an illicit sexual act between a man and a woman--referring to a man "arsenokoit-ing" his wife. Probably referring to anal penetration. Though this is, again, many hundreds of years after Paul.

In the Latin of the Vulgate the word arsenokoites is translated pretty literally as "masculorum concubitores", that is "male bedmates" or "concubining males", while in Martin Luther's German translation he renders it as "Knabenschander", that is "child molesters". In the Syriac translation (Peshitta) we find "ܫܳܟ݂ܒ݁ܰܝ ܥܰܡ ܕ݁ܶܟ݂ܪܶܐ" -- "[those that] lay down with males".

What's evident is that the word probably indicates a sexual activity involving men, which later is clearly associated with penetrative sex of the, ahem, back side (regardless of male or female). What is not clear, and some would want to suggest is clear, is that it condemns committed, monogamous romantic/sexual same-sex couples. That it would condemn pederasty, or even the taking of male prostitutes, seems quite likely given it likewise condemns porneia (prostitution). And further here seems to be something of a broad condemnation of Greco-Roman Pagan culture and religious practices, as it covers the worship of idols, prostitution (i.e. temple prostitution), the taking of male youths to bed (arsenokoites), and malakos.

Malakos is another interesting word. Unlike arsenokoites it is extent in Greek literature of the time. It means "soft". Though in literary contexts tends to refer to cowardice and various "womanly" traits, as viewed from the perspective of Greek society. Women were "soft", that is they were weak, weak-willed, and cowardly (just a little bit of misogyny at work here). A man who exhibited such "womanly" traits was likewise "soft". Likewise, in Greek culture, male-male sexual pairing was not considered weak or soft, but considered strong and manly. A "real man" in that society was one who took both women and men to bed, because either way he could exhibit his masculine prowess. So attempting to treat malakos as a term to describe "gay-ness" is faulty since that word would almost certainly have never referred to any sort of male-male pairing, but would have probably been used to refer to certain men who adopted "feminine" (by the Greek definition) traits and thus became "soft" and ergo "unmanly". Those in the service of Adonis, as I recall, castrated themselves and offered themselves as androgynous prostitutes to others as just an example.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Marius27

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Even if not, what do you think Paul is discussing in Romans 1?
The Cybelen cult and sex orgies to satisfy the fertility goddesses. Saint Augustine said it refers to heterosexuals.

Moreover, the Jewish Law is pretty clearly against homosexual relations, and both Jesus and Paul do not depart from the Law on sexual ethics; if anything, they intensify it.
Actually no, Jewish law does not prohibit all homosexual relations. The world's leading expert on Leviticus said it didn't refer to modern day gays and it's in the context of pagan worship.
 
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Aldebaran

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Lovely. Let's compare others to dogs and pigs in "mixed company". That's real class.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Are the liberals feeling insulted now? Good grief, we can't have that! Ok, let the Christians sit back and be called names and have our faith insulted. That's what we're here for. :confused:
 
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David Brider

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Are the liberals feeling insulted now? Good grief, we can't have that! Ok, let the Christians sit back and be called names and have our faith insulted. That's what we're here for. :confused:

Even if we are being called names and having our faith insulted, I don't really think we should be responding in the same manner. Love our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, treat others the way we'd like them to treat us, and all of that...
 
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The Cybelen cult and sex orgies to satisfy the fertility goddesses. Saint Augustine said it refers to heterosexuals.

Actually no, Jewish law does not prohibit all homosexual relations. The world's leading expert on Leviticus said it didn't refer to modern day gays and it's in the context of pagan worship.

That's a bunch of bologna. I can guarantee as well the 'leading expert' is a flaming liberal, just like every other person who has justified 'modern ____' not the same as 'ancient ____'.

Sorry, but not everything revolved around pagan worship. People did things then, just as now, without excuse of a deity. It's called human nature, via the Fall.

The orthodox Jews today still see homosexuality the same as they did thousands of years ago. We can leave it to the new moderates like yourself to try and say otherwise, just like with liberal Christians- the proof of their dissent from the actual standards is plain as day, seen in their self-prescribed moral standards definitively not from their religion. You all are contrary to all three Abrahamic religions collectively- you have to prove realistically that they all, all through history, have had it wrong. Good luck with that.
 
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Marius27

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That's a bunch of bologna. I can guarantee as well the 'leading expert' is a flaming liberal, just like every other person who has justified 'modern ____' not the same as 'ancient ____'.
A flaming liberal? He's was a Conservative Rabbi and the world's leading authority on Leviticus. He wasn't a liberal.

But nice insults. Weren't you whining about people insulting you earlier?

Sorry, but not everything revolved around pagan worship.
Then you clearly haven't read the Bible you're attacking people with since it tells you it involves pagan worship.


The orthodox Jews today still see homosexuality the same as they did thousands of years ago. We can leave it to the new moderates like yourself to try and say otherwise.
Not quite. Even Orthodox views are changing today and they don't believe in forcing gays to marry the opposite sex. The Orthodox are having trouble over this issue due to Orthodox Rabbis coming out as gay.

Judaism is generally far ahead of Christianity on social issues, probably because Jews are often more intelligent and educated.

You all are contrary to all three Abrahamic religions collectively- you have to prove realistically that they all, all through history, have had it wrong. Good luck with that.
__________________

Uh, the Church supported the belief for hundreds of years that the Sun revolved around the Earth, because the Bible supports that view. Throughout most of the Church's history, they had that one wrong. And they can be wrong about this. The Church is controlled by fallible humans.
 
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Skaloop

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That's a bunch of bologna. I can guarantee as well the 'leading expert' is a flaming liberal, just like every other person who has justified 'modern ____' not the same as 'ancient ____'.

I dunno, I hear that argument from conservative Christians a lot, using "slavery" in the blanks.
 
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A flaming liberal? He's was a Conservative Rabbi and the world's leading authority on Leviticus. He wasn't a liberal.

Yeah, a 'conservative Rabbi' is pretty liberal in my book- a nation of people who consistently look to support the minority because of their historical qualms.

They have a subtle racism against Slavics, but who would've guessed, seriously :D

But nice insults. Weren't you whining about people insulting you earlier?

Nope

Not quite. Even Orthodox views are changing today and they don't believe in forcing gays to marry the opposite sex. The Orthodox are having trouble over this issue due to Orthodox Rabbis coming out as gay.

Yeah, the conversion of a small handful of orthodox Jews does not justify your statement.
They all still very much would never marry two men in a synagogue, and have the same problem that the orthodox Christian churches are having. You see the strength where it is most applicable- the UK's English Communion is caving in, as the UK is absurdly socialistic and liberal. But out in Greece and Rome, you don't see them negotiating with squat- they tell the truth for what it is.

Judaism is generally far ahead of Christianity on social issues, probably because Jews are often more intelligent and educated.

Lol, they are quick to conform to standards, that's all. Just as they always have.
 
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Aldebaran

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I personally trust information coming from people that are on fire than those who are not.

Why would someone burning tell a lie? :p

For the same reason a person being tortured would. To get out of it! :doh:

Now a burning liberal--well, they have even more reasons! :D
 
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I dunno, I hear that argument from conservative Christians a lot, using "slavery" in the blanks.

That's because slavery isn't as bad as it's deemed today. Liberal guilt has simply made it synonymous to a holocaust.

There's never been a time in history where slavery was abolished for moral reasons, it's always been straight out of necessity, or in America's case, industrial progress.

People today have a hard time dealing with historical reality, however. If you go down to the real south, you don't see nearly as many people, of all ethnicities, making as big a deal of it as the liberal north.
Kind of lines up with homosexual rights- the one's on the front lines of it aren't even the subjects of the cause :D
 
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Aldebaran

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That's because slavery isn't as bad as it's deemed today. Liberal guilt has simply made it synonymous to a holocaust.

I kind of had this kind of thought when I recently watched the movie called 12 Years a Slave. Some things there and often referenced as to how things were don't make a whole lotta sense. I mean, what if you were a slave owner and had a slave that did more work and got more results than your other slaves? How would you treat that slave to continue getting those results? Would you whip them until they were nearly dead? Remember, you PAID for that slave and want to get results. Would whipping them nearly to death get you those results? Nope!

If you were a business owner today and had a great employee, you do what it takes to keep them around. You don't give them a hard time or threaten them or make them wish they didn't work for you. That's how you keep good employees around and keep your business running smoothly. I don't think slave owners (who obviously had money) were so dumb that they couldn't see this.

I'm not saying slavery was a good thing. I'm just saying that I don't believe everything I hear about how it was.
 
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Skaloop

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That's because slavery isn't as bad as it's deemed today. Liberal guilt has simply made it synonymous to a holocaust.

There's never been a time in history where slavery was abolished for moral reasons, it's always been straight out of necessity, or in America's case, industrial progress.

People today have a hard time dealing with historical reality, however. If you go down to the real south, you don't see nearly as many people, of all ethnicities, making as big a deal of it as the liberal north.
Kind of lines up with homosexual rights- the one's on the front lines of it aren't even the subjects of the cause :D

So you're doing the exact same thing you were complaining about. Saying slavery now isn't the same, or doesn't mean the same thing, as in the past. Are you a flaming liberal?
 
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So you're doing the exact same thing you were complaining about. Saying slavery now isn't the same, or doesn't mean the same thing, as in the past. Are you a flaming liberal?

There hasn't been a single nation on Earth which didn't get it's prosperity at some point through slavery.

Mankind is an adversarial species, always had and always will. Liberals labor under the delusion that man is not.

I am not doing anything of the sort, if slavery were enacted again it would be the same as it always was- it's not something that changes, it rather is what it is. The only thing that does change is if it's a necessity or not.
You want cold, hard fact, well there it is. I'm not going to sit here and sensationalize it and take some uber high road, I leave that to the rest of society who wants to be guilty or a victim of something they had no part of.
 
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