Calvinism makes sense

[mickyd1961]

I am certain of it' truth.

 

[mickyd1961]

If Christ's atonement were unlimited then all would be saved. No his atonement is limited. Free will suggests merit on the part of the believer. Faith becomes works. No it is God who chooses the elect. Not the other way around.

 

[St_Worm2]

I am certain of its truth.

And yet you appear to be Roman Catholic .. Hmmm ..

 

[mickyd1961]

And yet you appear to be Roman Catholic .. Hmmm ..

So WAS John Calvin. A Catholic yes but appreciative of 5 points of Calvinism nonetheless.

 

[St_Worm2]

So WAS John Calvin. A Catholic yes but appreciative of 5 points of Calvinism nonetheless.

Wow, well ok then .. So how has this knowledge/belief affected your life as a RC? Do you simply continue to practice the one while acknowledging the truth of the other ..

Also, sola fide and sola Scriptura, the material and formal causes of the Reformation, are you also embracing them in some manner or another?

If you do not feel comfortable answering any of this online, that's ok, but if you don't mind, I'd love to know.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - BTW, I see that you are still pretty new here, so WELCOME TO CF ..

 

[BryanW92]

Wow, well ok then .. So how has this knowledge/belief affected your life as a RC? Do you simply continue to practice the one while acknowledging the truth of the other ..

Also, sola fide and sola Scriptura, the material and formal causes of the Reformation, are you also embracing them in some manner or another?

If you do not feel comfortable answering any of this online, that's ok, but if you don't mind, I'd love to know.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - BTW, I see that you are still pretty new here, so WELCOME TO CF ..

I started becoming a Calvinist almost a year ago while I was still a Methodist. The more I studied it, the more sense it made. I finally quit the UMC just a couple months ago.

 

[mickyd1961]

Wow, well ok then .. So how has this knowledge/belief affected your life as a RC? Do you simply continue to practice the one while acknowledging the truth of the other ..

Also, sola fide and sola Scriptura, the material and formal causes of the Reformation, are you also embracing them in some manner or another?

If you do not feel comfortable answering any of this online, that's ok, but if you don't mind, I'd love to know.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - BTW, I see that you are still pretty new here, so WELCOME TO CF ..

Thanks for the welcome. It's a bit of a conundrum. A Process of discovery. Christ speaks to our hearts so I try to keep myself open to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. God brought me here. Where He will lead? I don't know.

 

[BryanW92]

Thanks for the welcome. It's a bit of a conundrum. A Process of discovery. Christ speaks to our hearts so I try to keep myself open to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. God brought me here. Where He will lead? I don't know.

Have you read R. C Sproul's "What is Reformed Theology"? Its a great introduction written by a very knowledgable man who can speak to the laity very well.

 

[mickyd1961]

Have you read R. C Sproul's "What is Reformed Theology"? Its a great introduction written by a very knowledgable man who can speak to the laity very well.

I will have to put that on my reading list. Funny I picked up his "Essential Truths of the Christian Religion" today. Also I have J.L. Packers' "Knowing God" which has sat on a book shelf for many years and I have never read.

 

[Daniel924927]

Of what little I know of Calvinism I am not so sure it makes any real sense to me , in a way it does and in a way it does not .
I sort of hope it is not the way it is , seems a bit futile and maybe somewhat senseless .
I am not absolutely certain either way , only that either things are etched in stone , a done deal so to speak or they are random or maybe a little of both .
I just can not picture how God would know all the future , I think maybe it would make him subject to things he can not change for a starter .
that would mean he was not in full control and could not save or dam anyone he was not already meant to save or dam .

Got to remember even if God changed his mind about this or that he would have already have known from the very beginning that he was going to change it .
Therefore all occurrences are in a fixed state for him as well and therefore makes him completely powerless to do anything he was not meant to do .
That is merely one of many problems I see with that philosophy .

On the other hand sadly it does seem sort of logical in a way that things can only take one path , one course per instance ( God or no God) . ( I state here I do believe in the existence of God , only pointing out that either way it could still be the case .
I sure hope not though .

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Daniel, if you have a problem with God being immutable (Numbers 23:19), or His knowing the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), or with His absolute sovereignty (Daniel 4:34), etc., your problem really doesn't rest with Calvinism, but with orthodoxy itself (and, of course, the Bible). These things are not unique/specific to Reformed theology, but are parts of the faith which are held in common among us.

Here is something to consider, if anything is outside the purview of God, if there is a "maverick molecule" floating around somewhere that is out of His reach or control (His ordination), could He rightly be called "God" .. Could anything He has promised us, then, ever be counted on as something we "know" will come to pass, or would it actually become something we could only "hope" would come to pass?

BTW, WELCOME TO CF ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[Skala]

And yet you appear to be Roman Catholic .. Hmmm ..

So WAS John Calvin. A Catholic yes but appreciative of 5 points of Calvinism nonetheless.

Surely you realize that Catholic soteriology is 100% opposite that of Reformed/Catholic soteriology?

So far this post is like saying you are a vegetarian who loves to eat steak, lol.

 

[Randomelement]

Hi Daniel, if you have a problem with God being immutable (Numbers 23:19), or His knowing the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), or with His absolute sovereignty (Daniel 4:34), etc., your problem really doesn't rest with Calvinism, but with orthodoxy itself (and, of course, the Bible). These things are not unique/specific to Reformed theology, but are parts of the faith which are held in common among us.

Here is something to consider, if anything is outside the purview of God, if there is a "maverick molecule" floating around somewhere that is out of His reach or control (His ordination), could He rightly be called "God" .. Could anything He has promised us, then, ever be counted on as something we "know" will come to pass, or would it actually become something we could only "hope" would come to pass?

BTW, WELCOME TO CF ..

Yours and His,
David

Thank you for the greeting David ( incidentally , I am the original poster but could not remember my passwords so I had to make a new account and email as well. ) .

If all of mainstream Christendom belives that God must know each and every moment of every sub- atomic patical in all universes - dimsions ( or whatever does actually exist - everywhere - throughout all time then yes I believe a bit unorthodox .

I think that introduces senselessness - meaninglessness - purposelessness as well as being rife with paradox , though I do believe he is sovereign and all knowing and all powerful . .

Daniel

 

[Randomelement]

Here is something to consider, if anything is outside the purview of God, if there is a "maverick molecule" floating around somewhere that is out of His reach or control (His ordination), could He rightly be called "God" .. Could anything He has promised us, then, ever be counted on as something we "know" will come to pass, or would it actually become something we could only "hope" would come to pass?


quote]

God can make anything he wants to occur to happen .
God can know anything he wants to know .

See , the way I see it - if God ' Must Know' ; he is then FORCED to know ( with no other alternative but to know ) and is therefore is subject to another power.

 

[Randomelement]

Here might be something for you to consider David .
If God must know all the future then he ' must know ' - all that he himself will think , feel and do .
that means he could not change his mind or change anything that must occur .
If he did change it , he would have already have known he would have changed it before he did .
This also mean he can not feel some things - ... God felt " remorse " at having created the world.
Genesis 6:6King James Version (KJV)

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Randomelement, welcome back .. Bummer on the password thing ..

You make some good points which I will be happy to discuss with you a little later today (gotta go right now).

I must say though that I find your new user name humorous, especially considering the subject we are discussing at the moment ..

I'll be back.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Randomelement]

Hi Randomelement, welcome back .. Bummer on the password thing ..

You make some good points which I will be happy to discuss with you a little later today (gotta go right now).

I must say though that I find your new user name humorous, especially considering the subject we are discussing at the moment ..

I'll be back.

Yours and His,
David

Ha Ha David , yes my user name is sort of ironic isn't it .
But that is the real question at the heart of the matter isn't , does random element exist or doesn't it ??
Obviously we are both believers in the existence of a God but even if someone was not a believer the answer to that question is still unprovable and maybe a bit elusive .

I personally believe random element does exists but I can not prove it conclusively , I do think it is implied though .

It seems senseless to me if all we say and do is already written in stone , A done deal , no hope of changing even a single thing .

After all those void of belief are only so because they have no other alternative but to carry out the will of God , even if it is by not doing his will.
I mean if someone sins it is against will and yet it must be his will if they are sinning . (That is IF void of all random element ).

 

[St_Worm2]

It seems senseless to me if all we say and do is already written in stone , A done deal , no hope of changing even a single thing.

I understand what you're saying, but do you .. If things we have already chosen to do "change", would that not be conclusive evidence that our wills are not free? Would that not prove once and for all that we are truly nothing but marionettes with our Master Puppeteer pulling our strings in absolute control of our every action ..

You also speak of things, "written in stone" (and in a sense, all things are), but again, what we are "locked into" is the result of our free choices and God's "permission" to carry them out, even when they don't meet with His moral approval.

I'll stop here for now to see if any of this makes sense to you.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

--David

 

[Randomelement]

I understand what you're saying, but do you .. If things we have already chosen to do "change", would that not be conclusive evidence that our wills are not free? Would that not prove once and for all that we are truly nothing but marionettes with our Master Puppeteer pulling our strings in absolute control of our every action ..

You also speak of things, "written in stone" (and in a sense, all things are), but again, what we are "locked into" is the result of our free choices and God's "permission" to carry them out, even when they don't meet with His moral approval.

I'll stop here for now to see if any of this makes sense to you.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

--David

That is very profound David so I have to think this out awhile before responding .
I have a lot of things I must do and that response certainly deserves much thought and serious consideration.
Though I will say upfront I think if that is the case then all is inevitable and unchangeable anyway , that God allows our choices to be made would mean he already did so , in fact he has always done so already and he himself can not change anything without ALREADY knowing he had changed it .
Would that not also mean that the puppeteer also is an automaton as well and trapped in what must be / as with all things a mere reactor to his very nature ?

 

[St_Worm2]

That is very profound David so I have to think this out awhile before responding .
I have a lot of things I must do and that response certainly deserves much thought and serious consideration.
Though I will say upfront I think if that is the case then all is inevitable and unchangeable anyway , that God allows our choices to be made would mean he already did so , in fact he has always done so already and he himself can not change anything without ALREADY knowing he had changed it .
Would that not also mean that the puppeteer also is an automaton as well and trapped in what must be / as with all things a mere reactor to his very nature ?

Hi Daniel, something to consider as you are thinking about this is the different perspective we have as beings who exist within linear time from God who does not. He is "omnipresent", meaning that He is present everywhere at all times, past, present, and future.

As to God being an "automaton", again, like us, His choices are His own and they are freely made (something automatons do not do). He makes them based upon His character (His goodness, His love, His holiness, Hi justice, His patience, etc.) and upon His present and infinite knowledge of all things, so His choices, unlike ours, are always perfect. To choose differently than He does would result in Him making a bad choice. Why would He want to do that .. Just to prove to us that He can ..

Yours and His,
David