God's miracles and the apparent uniformity of dating methods

[Calminian]

This is something I can't answer. I don't the background to do so, but I have been wondering about it.

Can someone give me an example of a mechanism that God may have used that could throw off one specific dating method, but leave the rest in tact? For instance you have carbon dating, along with several others. If God did do something that affected one of those methods (indirectly) would the others likely be unaffected? Or would they all stay relatively uniform in their results? I suppose it would depend on what God actually did.

The key is, the mechanism in question can't be for the purpose of merely resetting a dating method It would have to be a mechanism God used in either brining about the Flood (or the end of the Flood) or the Fall, or for effecting changes that took place during and after these events, which then had the peripheral effect of somehow resetting only one time clock (if you will). It would be a miracle of course, but a purposeful one geared toward making changes in the world, not throwing off a particular time clock scientists use.

In essence, I'm asking even those that are not YEC's to think like YEC's for a moment. But I'd be curious what you may come up with given some of your backgrounds.

 

[Papias]

Good idea – maybe examples would be fun.


I’ve shifted into YEC mode – but please help me if you think of a better “miracle scenario” than I come up with.

So how about this scenario?

God miraculously creates the world 6,000 years ago, including a “vapor canopy”, which He miraculously holds up, until the flood, when it comes raining down. This is a scenario I’ve heard YEC’s propose to explain a number of things. For now I’ll skip any objections based on greenhouse warming, the gas law, or the latent heat of condensation, and assume that this vapor canopy idea not only works, but is what actually happened. These are my thoughts on each – I haven’t done the calculations like how fast the atmosphere mixes, etc, so the scaling could be off on some of them.

So, how would this affect the dating methods?

Let’s start with dendrochronolgy. This huge amount of water seems likely to form a thick enough layer to prevent the seasons, as on Venus (which has a very thick atmosphere). If so, dendrochronology would show normal dating from today back to the flood 4,500 years ago, then would show a blank (wood without rings).


Next, C14 – the water would block the process of N-14 to C14 in the upper atmosphere, which would only commence after the flood, and would take a while to reach today’s C14 levels. So anything from before the flood would give an “out of range” age of >50K, and those younger than the flood would be skewed to older ages (based on their actual age), up to around 2K years ago, after which they would match.

K-Ar dating would be unaffected, it would show all samples as their actual ages if in the range of K-Ar dating.

Obsidian dating would be affected by the warmth and humidity of the vapor, throwing off the dates to a set of old ages based on their location. After the flood, dating would be normal, leaving a “gap” in ages (few if any samples would date to ages for the period of several centuries before the flood).

Ice cores would show no record before the flood (they would be destroyed in the flood), but a normal record afterwards.

And so on.

Overall, they seem to fall into three main categories.

1. Methods that is unaffected by the flood, showing correct dates for all time periods. (examples: K-Ar, geomagnetism, more)
2. Methods that are “reset” by the flood, showing no record before the flood, but a correct record afterward. (ice cores, dendrochronolgy)
3. Methods that are thrown off to some other pattern by the flood, based on how they work. (C14 – changed based on how old the sample is, obsidian dating- changed based on where the sample sits, etc.)

What you think of that example? Maybe try some example instead of the vapor canopy?

Papias

 

[Calminian]

Good idea – maybe examples would be fun.


I’ve shifted into YEC mode – but please help me if you think of a better “miracle scenario” than I come up with.

So how about this scenario?

God miraculously creates the world 6,000 years ago, including a “vapor canopy”, .....

Most YEC's at this time seem to reject the vapor canopy theory. I would like to take that off the table also. I don't want to confuse the issue with a straw man argument that many if not most YEC's now have moved away from.

Let's just stick, if you don't mind, with things that are biblically verifiable. Also please stay away from other things that are no biblical, such as the light-in-transit theory.

Let's keep it real basic and biblical. That way I'll be able to analyze the answer better.

BTW, lest you think I'm being picky, AiG actually put out a list of creationists arguments to avoid and listed the vapor canopy theory under this heading.

Arguments that should be avoided (because further research is still needed, new research has invalidated aspects of it, or biblical implications may discount it)

I probably should have posted this list in the OP.

Arguments that should never be used
Moon dust thickness proves a young moon.
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall. (If so, how could Adam and Eve have eaten and digested their food that they were told to eat before the Fall?)
NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s “long day” (Joshua 10) and Hezekiah’s sundial movement (2 Kings 20).
There are no beneficial mutations.
Darwin recanted on his deathbed.
Woolly mammoths were flash frozen during the Flood catastrophe.
If we evolved from apes, apes shouldn’t exist today. (In an evolutionary worldview, mankind did not evolve from apes but from an apelike ancestor, from which both humans and apes of today supposedly evolved.)
No new species have been produced.
Ron Wyatt has found much archeological proof of the Bible.

Arguments that should be avoided (because further research is still needed, new research has invalidated aspects of it, or biblical implications may discount it)
Evolution is just a theory. (“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)
Microevolution is true but not macroevolution. (People usually mean that we see changes within a kind but not between kinds; however, the important distinction is that we observe changes that do not increase the genetic information in an organism.)
There was a water vapor canopy surrounding earth before the Flood.
Mitochondrial Eve is only 6000 years old.
The Gospel is in the stars.
The Japanese trawler Zuiyo Maru caught a dead plesiosaur near New Zealand. (Later research showed it to be a basking shark.)
The earth’s axis was vertical before the Flood. (Genesis 1:14 reveals seasons did exist prior to the Flood.)
Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.
Stars are closer than we are led to believe.
There was no rain before the Flood. (Genesis 2:4–6, a passage commonly used to support this, is speaking of Creation Week, prior to the creation of man. It may not be wise to assume this projects into the future until the Flood.)
The speed of light has decreased over time.
There are no transitional forms. (It would be better to say there are no intermediates between two different kinds. We find variant transitional fossils for animals within the same kind—horse to a horse for example but that is expected in a biblical worldview.)

Common misconceptions/misunderstandings
Earth’s division in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25) refers to catastrophic splitting of the continents. (How could the mountains of Ararat in Genesis 8:4 have existed on Day 150 of the Flood for the Ark to land in, if the Eurasian, African, and Arabian plates had not collided to form these mountains yet?)
The Septuagint records the correct Genesis chronology. (Methuselah would have lived 17 years after the Flood without being on the Ark. This is a problem.)
The phrase “science falsely so called” in 1 Timothy 6:20 (KJV) refers to evolution.
Man could only live to 120 years as per Genesis 6:3. (Then how could many of Noah’s descendants outlive 120 years, including Abraham? This makes better sense as a countdown to the Flood.)
The Intelligent Design Movement is a Christian movement.
Women have one more rib than men.
Archaeopteryx is a fraud.
The Geneva Bible Society used Voltaire’s house to produce Bibles. (This has never been verified.)​

 

[Papias]

Cal wrote:

vapor canopy theory. I would like to take that off the table also.

No problem. I'm not a proponent of the canopy idea either. So, is there an event you consider "Biblical"? I'm guessing you can come up with one better, since you know YEC thought better than I.

I used the canopy idea because it was mostly physically described, and could therefore affect dating methods. Obviously, if one were to pick an "event" that could be completely spiritual, like "the spirit of the alien ubosnoios permeated the earth", it's not clear how it would affect the physical world.

ideas?

Papias

 

[Aman777]

Cal wrote:

vapor canopy theory. I would like to take that off the table also.

Pap:>>No problem. I'm not a proponent of the canopy idea either. So, is there an event you consider "Biblical"? I'm guessing you can come up with one better, since you know YEC thought better than I.

Dear Friends, I'm the youngest of the young earthers. God made everything in less than 6 Days and today is the 6th Day. The event you should consider Biblical is found in Genesis 2:4. It tells us the Day of the Big Bang of our Cosmos. It was the 3rd Day, 3 Days ago in God's time and some 13.7 Billion years in man's time. This reveals that each of God's Days or Ages is some 4.5 Billion years lin length, in man's time.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Papias]

Aman-


That's nice that you are the youngest of YECs, but your day interpretation seems a bit off-topic here. After all, you've already got two whole threads on it for people to discuss, as well as the many times you've brought it up on additional threads. Let's keep this thread about looking at a hypothetical YEC event, and how that might affect various dating methods.

Thanks-

Papias

 

[SkyWriting]

Aman-


That's nice that you are the youngest of YECs, but your day interpretation seems a bit off-topic here. After all, you've already got two whole threads on it for people to discuss, as well as the many times you've brought it up on additional threads. Let's keep this thread about looking at a hypothetical YEC event, and how that might affect various dating methods.

Thanks-

Papias

I'm comfortable with my current process. But thanks!

 

[dull bot]

This is something I can't answer. I don't the background to do so, but I have been wondering about it.

Can someone give me an example of a mechanism that God may have used that could throw off one specific dating method, but leave the rest in tact? For instance you have carbon dating, along with several others. If God did do something that affected one of those methods (indirectly) would the others likely be unaffected? Or would they all stay relatively uniform in their results? I suppose it would depend on what God actually did.

The key is, the mechanism in question can't be for the purpose of merely resetting a dating method It would have to be a mechanism God used in either brining about the Flood (or the end of the Flood) or the Fall, or for effecting changes that took place during and after these events, which then had the peripheral effect of somehow resetting only one time clock (if you will). It would be a miracle of course, but a purposeful one geared toward making changes in the world, not throwing off a particular time clock scientists use.

In essence, I'm asking even those that are not YEC's to think like YEC's for a moment. But I'd be curious what you may come up with given some of your backgrounds.

Well we know divine judgment can sorta bend the fabric of creation (Genesis 3:7). Maybe events such as the deluge, or fire from heaven, etc. have similar side effects.

-Tim

 

[SkyWriting]

Well we know divine judgment can sorta bend the fabric of creation (Genesis 3:7). Maybe events such as the deluge, or fire from heaven, etc. have similar side effects.

-Tim

That passage refers to The Fall when people stopped seeing outward only, as God does, and changed into humans who had an understanding of "self."

At that moment, people became "SELF conscience."

You'll notice that when you have sex with somebody, you are self-conscience.
This is why Adam and Eve suddenly covered themselves to hide embarrassment.

 

[jacksonduluth]

Can you please explain the self-conscious aspect? I always thought they just became aware of the need for modesty, which they had not known before?

 

[wisaak]

That passage refers to The Fall when people stopped seeing outward only, as God does, and changed into humans who had an understanding of "self."

At that moment, people became "SELF conscience."

I assume you mean self-conscious.
Interesting idea, but God does not only see outward, He sees Himself too. In John 12:28 Jesus asks God to glorify His name and God replies, "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
In John 17:5, Jesus asks God to glorify himself with the glory He had with God before creation. Self-consciousness is a communicable divine attribute.

 

[SkyWriting]

Can you please explain the self-conscious aspect? I always thought they just became aware of the need for modesty, which they had not known before?

You are aware of the personality trait that some people are focused outwardly.
As an example, Mother Theresa does not wear fashion clothes or makeup.

So let's say that originally mankind was like a Mother Theresa and was as plain as can be and after becoming self-aware, saw bare skin and had to put on makeup.

Man was originally blind to self. After the fall, he was aware of self as an entity separate from God. They no longer walked together, as the story reads.