Have you had a yaoi temptation?

[ChloeJM]

I'm going through a battle with my heart at the moment, it's been going on for a while. I'm literally on a roller coaster. Some days I completely avoid temptation and don't look at any yaoi at all, but then sometimes I just don't care and get caught up in it! IT'S SUPER ANNOYING. I feel disgusting... I know that people might think it's funny that I'm stumbling from yaoi, but I am a girl and I am naturally attracted to that kind of thing... And what's worse is that, sometimes, I have dreams about it... >.<
Has anybody else ever gone through a similar thing? I just don't know how to deal with it. I'm doing okay with it now, I've been praying more and keeping away from worldly things. I'm just worried that I'm going to be tempted again.

 

[SarahsKnight]

I know that people might think it's funny that I'm stumbling from yaoi, but I am a girl and I am naturally attracted to that kind of thing...

... As us guys, whether we want to admit it or not, are commonly attracted to anime girls. I find it a funny thing about myself in that I can look back and poke fun at myself for being such a nerd in that respect, but in the way you obviously mean, Miss Chloe, no, it is not funny. It's a bigger temptation to admit to suffering than a lot of people are willing to admit. But I think you are safe here to confess without fear of judgment, and it's nice to hear that you do (as from my perspective, it seems like generally a lot more taboo for women to openly admit to sexual desires such as this than it is for guys to, because it seems less expected of women). So, I will pray for you, my younger sister. Do what you can to minimize the temptation if you do not want it, and we'll be hear for you to talk to about your struggles whenever you feel the need.

 

[ChloeJM]

... As us guys, whether we want to admit it or not, are commonly attracted to anime girls.
Do what you can to minimize the temptation if you do not want it, and we'll be hear for you to talk to about your struggles whenever you feel the need.

Thank you for your reply. I find it really hard to open up about my sexual struggles because I'm female and some think that it's strange that it happens to women as well... None of my Christian friends like anime or yaoi or any of these things, so I can't open up to them about it.

I kept having these annoying urges today, it was only from simple pictures that trigger nasty thoughts... But I've been shaking off my thoughts and have kept strong today.

Thank you so much for praying for me and talking, I have nobody else to talk to or ask for help from apart from God right now.

 

[SarahsKnight]

It's no problem. I will be here if you need me.

 

[Paradoxum]

Do you mind me asking why you think these thoughts are wrong? It's not as if such thoughts hurt others. I'm just saying.

 

[ChloeJM]

Do you mind me asking why you think these thoughts are wrong? It's not as if such thoughts hurt others. I'm just saying.

Thoughts aren't harmless just because they're not hurting others. These thoughts are lustful and only focus on pleasing oneself, often leading to unwholesome actions to fulfill one's desires with no regard to the consequences. Lust is about possession and greed. The Christian faith is about selflessness and is marked by holy living. The goal of each person who has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ is to become more and more like Him each day. This means putting off the old way of life of which sin was in control, and conforming one's thoughts and actions to the standard put forth in Scripture. Lust is in opposition to this ideal.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 teaches "God has called us to be holy, not to live impure lives. Anyone who refuses to live by these rules is not disobeying human rules but is rejecting God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you." We should come clean before God and ask for His intervention in our life if we struggle with lust, so that holiness can be a mark of our life as well.

And that's why I think these thoughts are wrong.

 

[Paradoxum]

Thoughts aren't harmless just because they're not hurting others. These thoughts are lustful and only focus on pleasing oneself,

If I eat an apple, that might be only about pleasing myself. Is that immoral?

How is having sex with someone any more selfish than playing badminton with someone?

often leading to unwholesome actions to fulfill one's desires with no regard to the consequences.

Really? That's quite vague. What unwholesome actions?

Most people don't have no regard to the consequences. For example, if wanted to have sex with a guy, that doesn't mean I'd murder to get what I wanted ('with no regard to the consequences').

Lust is about possession and greed. The Christian faith is about selflessness and is marked by holy living. The goal of each person who has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ is to become more and more like Him each day. This means putting off the old way of life of which sin was in control, and conforming one's thoughts and actions to the standard put forth in Scripture. Lust is in opposition to this ideal.

How is lust about possession and greed? And how is that different from hunger?

So, if you are against greed, and for selflessness, are you going to give give 90% of your wealth to the poor for the rest of your life? Or as much as you can? No nice house, car, food, technology? Living at the poorest end of society.

If not, then I don't think you actually care about constantly being selfless.

And that's why I think these thoughts are wrong.

Fair enough, but they sound like excuses to me. I don't think you can point to any harm.

Sex (for example) is no more harmful than playing badminton. It's also no more selfish.

I hope you don't mind me saying.

 

[ChloeJM]

If I eat an apple, that might be only about pleasing myself. Is that immoral?

How is having sex with someone any more selfish than playing badminton with someone?

I'm not saying that pleasing yourself is immoral or that sex is selfish (it's an amazing gift), I'm just trying to stress that lust and pleasing yourself from lust is something that can be sinful (in my opinion) if done in the way that God didn't intended it for (outside of marriage). Don't get me wrong, God wants us to enjoy sex and apples! You most likely don't think that it's a problem to please yourself outside of marriage, but the reason I do is because I believe sexuality is sacred, it's something I should be thankful for and I shouldn't abuse God's gift by lusting outside of marriage. He created sex and lust to be within marriage, and I wish to respect that. And I'm not talking about badminton because a game is different to sexuality, when I say pleasing yourself I mean pleasing yourself sexually.

Really? That's quite vague. What unwholesome actions?

Most people don't have no regard to the consequences. For example, if wanted to have sex with a guy, that doesn't mean I'd murder to get what I wanted ('with no regard to the consequences').

Actions like, say, having sex outside of marriage or masturbation.
When I say consequences, I mean the result of giving into immoral lust (lust outside of marriage) which would be betraying God and committing sin, and I guess the result of that sin depends on person to person (e.g. whenever I commit such a sin, I always feel very empty and lonely afterwards, I've pushed God away and most of the time I feel like crying). Some of course may not feel any remorse for lusting outside of marriage (mainly due to their own beliefs) but the consequence will always still be sin.

How is lust about possession and greed? And how is that different from hunger?

So, if you are against greed, and for selflessness, are you going to give give 90% of your wealth to the poor for the rest of your life? Or as much as you can? No nice house, car, food, technology? Living at the poorest end of society.

If not, then I don't think you actually care about constantly being selfless.

When you lust, you crave and want to please yourself. And yes, hunger is the same as this. It's natural and okay. But it's when you step over the boundaries of that greed that it can get out of control. God calls us to control ourselves so that we do not let it overpower us. This is why gluttony and lust outside of marriage is a sin, because that's the point when you let your desires take over your life instead of God.
Well personally I would be more than happy to give 90% of my wealth to the poor for the rest of my life (when I'm older of course, I have no money right now). You can still have a nice car, house etc. without being greedy whilst being selfless, but it becomes greed when that's all you desire and want to keep. If you are willing to give up your nice things, then you are not greedy. I mean, I know that I'm selfish and greedy because it's human nature, but I still strive to become selfless whilst still knowing that I can never be 100% selfless all my life. I'd be more than content though to live in the poorest end of society if I had to.

Fair enough, but they sound like excuses to me. I don't think you can point to any harm.

Sex (for example) is no more harmful than playing badminton. It's also no more selfish.

I hope you don't mind me saying.

I agree, sex is no more harmful than playing badminton and it's also no more selfish. But I believe that sex in other contexts (e.g. outside marriage, peer pressure, rape) is more harmful and selfish. And I guess badminton in other contexts can be harmful haha (like if your forced to play a game and the other team is constantly throwing balls at you). I know you won't agree with that, especially with the outside of marriage idea, but it's what I believe as a Christian.

Thank you for your feedback, it's really interesting to talk to you about this! I'm sure there's something here I've said that you could still question and disagree with, I'm not the most wisest person so I do come out with wrong things sometimes. :S

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm not saying that pleasing yourself is immoral or that sex is selfish (it's an amazing gift), I'm just trying to stress that lust and pleasing yourself from lust is something that can be sinful (in my opinion) if done in the way that God didn't intended it for (outside of marriage).

Why would it be wrong to lust (etc) be wrong outside marriage? Why would God have a problem with it? Again, no one is violated if it's consensual. So why would God randomly be against it?

Don't get me wrong, God wants us to enjoy sex and apples! You most likely don't think that it's a problem to please yourself outside of marriage, but the reason I do is because I believe sexuality is sacred, it's something I should be thankful for and I shouldn't abuse God's gift by lusting outside of marriage. He created sex and lust to be within marriage, and I wish to respect that. And I'm not talking about badminton because a game is different to sexuality, when I say pleasing yourself I mean pleasing yourself sexually.

Why is sexuality any more sacred than hunger or playing games? Why would God create sex only for marriage, if you can have sex outside marriage without hurting anyone?

Would you agree that sex outside marriage isn't immoral? Since it doesn't violate or hurt people?

Actions like, say, having sex outside of marriage or masturbation.
When I say consequences, I mean the result of giving into immoral lust (lust outside of marriage) which would be betraying God and committing sin, and I guess the result of that sin depends on person to person (e.g. whenever I commit such a sin, I always feel very empty and lonely afterwards, I've pushed God away and most of the time I feel like crying). Some of course may not feel any remorse for lusting outside of marriage (mainly due to their own beliefs) but the consequence will always still be sin.

I'm not sure it's correct to say that the consequence of sex outside marriage is sin. I'd think from your point of view, sex outside marriage IS sin... sin isn't the consequence.

Also, why is going against Gods will immoral? If he had a reason (like that it violates someone) then it makes sense... but if there is no good reason to think it's immoral, isn't it just arbitrary?

When you lust, you crave and want to please yourself. And yes, hunger is the same as this. It's natural and okay. But it's when you step over the boundaries of that greed that it can get out of control. God calls us to control ourselves so that we do not let it overpower us. This is why gluttony and lust outside of marriage is a sin, because that's the point when you let your desires take over your life instead of God.

I don't understand why'd think that. Having (outside marriage) because you desire sex is more comparable to eating because you are hungry. Becoming a sex addict is more comparable to gluttony.

You can be in control and not obsessed with lust, while acting on your desires outside marriage. It's no more 'taking over your life' than eating when you are hungry.

I totally understand that sex obsession can be a problem, like gluttony, but that goes far beyond simply having sex (outside marriage).

Well personally I would be more than happy to give 90% of my wealth to the poor for the rest of my life (when I'm older of course, I have no money right now). You can still have a nice car, house etc. without being greedy whilst being selfless, but it becomes greed when that's all you desire and want to keep. If you are willing to give up your nice things, then you are not greedy. I mean, I know that I'm selfish and greedy because it's human nature, but I still strive to become selfless whilst still knowing that I can never be 100% selfless all my life. I'd be more than content though to live in the poorest end of society if I had to.

It's all very well saying that you would... but I doubt that you will. I'd say there's nothing wrong with that. Giving to charity is good, but I don't think that means you have to give everything to be a good person.

I agree, sex is no more harmful than playing badminton and it's also no more selfish. But I believe that sex in other contexts (e.g. outside marriage, peer pressure, rape) is more harmful and selfish. And I guess badminton in other contexts can be harmful haha (like if your forced to play a game and the other team is constantly throwing balls at you). I know you won't agree with that, especially with the outside of marriage idea, but it's what I believe as a Christian.

I obviously agree that rape and peer pressure are harmful, but I stil don't see why you think sex outside marriage is harmful. If it's consensual, it literally doesn't harm anyone.

Thank you for your feedback, it's really interesting to talk to you about this! I'm sure there's something here I've said that you could still question and disagree with, I'm not the most wisest person so I do come out with wrong things sometimes. :S

I disagree with you, but I still think you gave decent answers. I'm trying not to be annoying, keeping questioning you.

 

[ChloeJM]

Hey, sorry I haven't replied in ages, I've been overloaded with work and haven't had the chance to reply until now.
In regards to most of what you say though...
(Side note: I don't think sexuality is any more sacred than hunger or badminton.)
On the topic of sex obsession, I think that having sex outside of marriage can act as a catalyst for it BUT ONLY FOR SOME PEOPLE, I do agree that sex outside of marriage is not the main cause of sex obsession. When it comes to the idea of control, I believe that we must control how we use sex by using it in the way God wants and not for the way we want (which would be outside of marriage). So we need control to avoid both obsession and sex outside of marriage.
Sex outside of marriage promotes promiscuity, can lead to emotional scarring, may result in unwanted pregnancies and, most importantly, tarnishes the sanctity of marriage. I understand that sex outside of marriage is viewed as 'harmless', even beneficial for people; but as a Christian I still stand against it because I believe that sex should only be purely for marriage, why, because God created it for that purpose, why, because He knows what's best for us as humans even when it seems like it isn't. It might seem that sex outside of marriage is completely unharmful for everybody if done in the right way, but I'm very skeptical about that, I think the action goes deeper than what the eye see's and the consequences shouldn't always be the judge or whether something is okay (humans are rubbish when it comes to knowing whats good for them imo).
The way I worded the sin and consequence was silly of me too haha, I think I meant that from acting immorally, the result is that sin has been laid upon you (but Jesus takes that away for people who believe in Him).
I pretty much agree with the charity thing too.
God puts all of these teachings about sex and whatever else into place for a reason that sometimes we don't understand, but I trust in His reason and plan. It can be understandable why people view them as random and unnecessary, but I think they are all necessary because I trust God in being right about what He's laid out for us.

Most people could probably question my views all day, but at the end of it my religion is pretty much based on faith, including the faith in His word. Thanks again for your response, your questions are great! ^.^

 

[Paradoxum]

Hey, sorry I haven't replied in ages, I've been overloaded with work and haven't had the chance to reply until now.
In regards to most of what you say though...
(Side note: I don't think sexuality is any more sacred than hunger or badminton.)

That's okay.

On the topic of sex obsession, I think that having sex outside of marriage can act as a catalyst for it BUT ONLY FOR SOME PEOPLE, I do agree that sex outside of marriage is not the main cause of sex obsession.

I agree, but the same could be said of chocolate.

When it comes to the idea of control, I believe that we must control how we use sex by using it in the way God wants and not for the way we want (which would be outside of marriage). So we need control to avoid both obsession and sex outside of marriage.

Even if there were a God, I don't see why restricting sex like that would be morally required.

Sex outside of marriage promotes promiscuity, can lead to emotional scarring, may result in unwanted pregnancies and, most importantly, tarnishes the sanctity of marriage.

I agree there can be problems... so it's up to each person what they want to do (and risk) in their lives.

I'm not sure priorities are right putting the 'sanctity of marriage' above emotional scarring, STD's, and unwanted pregnancies.

I understand that sex outside of marriage is viewed as 'harmless', even beneficial for people; but as a Christian I still stand against it because I believe that sex should only be purely for marriage, why, because God created it for that purpose, why, because He knows what's best for us as humans even when it seems like it isn't. It might seem that sex outside of marriage is completely unharmful for everybody if done in the right way, but I'm very skeptical about that, I think the action goes deeper than what the eye see's and the consequences shouldn't always be the judge or whether something is okay (humans are rubbish when it comes to knowing whats good for them imo).

I see no reason for God to make it for that purpose alone, and I don't think the Bible is trustworthy, so I wouldn't think basing morals on that is a good idea (in my opinion).

Even if sex in marriage were ideal, that wouldn't mean sex outside marriage was immoral... it would just be less than ideal.

The way I worded the sin and consequence was silly of me too haha, I think I meant that from acting immorally, the result is that sin has been laid upon you (but Jesus takes that away for people who believe in Him).
I pretty much agree with the charity thing too.
God puts all of these teachings about sex and whatever else into place for a reason that sometimes we don't understand, but I trust in His reason and plan. It can be understandable why people view them as random and unnecessary, but I think they are all necessary because I trust God in being right about what He's laid out for us.

If you believe the Bible (for some reason) I kinda get that... I still think it's potentially dangerous to have beliefs like that though.

If you don't know know why something is wrong or right, but you're just doing what an authority told, it could lead to bad things happening. Of course it would be okay if that authority is perfect, but what if you misinterpret the authority? Christians have done terrible things in the name of God in the past.

So, I think it's safer and more reasonable to try to understand morality for myself.

Most people could probably question my views all day, but at the end of it my religion is pretty much based on faith, including the faith in His word. Thanks again for your response, your questions are great! ^.^

Why do you think faith is an okay thing to base your life on? People used to think the Sun went round the Earth because of the Bible, yet it isn't true.

Again, I hope my questions and comments are okay.

 

[AntiVillain]

Actually, masturbation by itself isn't an unwholesome action, just pornography, fornication, etc.

Unless you believe God's also angry with us whenever we have to go to the bathroom (in which case, why make us that way in the first place?).

P.S.: To the OP, minimizing your exposure to yaoi as much as possible is a great start; the Bible itself even recommends avoidance.

 

[LittleQin]

Sorry to disturb the thread so suddenly, but I feel the need to speak.

To understand Yaoi one needs to understand Japanese pop-culture.

Nearly everyone in Japan reads comic books, so there are many many genres of comic book. Within the romance genre, there are many sub-genres, Yaoi is one of them.
The psychology: Some women have trouble getting into a said story if there is a female character involved involved in the fictional relationship.
Since Yaoi is man + man there is no female involved in the relationship to incite feelings of low self worth or whatever it may be. So these women who are reading the Yaoi can more easily put themselves in the story.

From a Christian point of view:

If one on the path of Christianity is having a fascination with Yaoi, it is likely a sign that there is something we must learn about ourselves from the Yaoi.
One must be an observer over their life, seeing all that is coming and going from their soul.
When the Yaoi is being read, pay close attention to what is happening in the story, and what feelings you are experiencing, this will likely point to the root of the 'temptation'.

After one finds the root of a problem they are facing, they can tackle it with the wisdom of the bible and the holy spirit.
Christians can transform nearly any force that not serving them into a new force that does serve them.

Never give up!

 

[The Bunny Rabbit]

I honestly think that feeling sexual desires is only natural and can't really be helped though it's only right to have sex with someone you truly love and not to just abuse it like a game. Also I'm really not sure if homosexuality is right or wrong, but I'll just watch whatever Anime that I want nowadays and I watch a lot of Yuri, because I think it's just totally cute and I'm kind of wanting to get into Yaoi and am curious. I think that watching Anime with a different way of love styles besides heterosexual is quite interesting, but I love heterosexual Anime too. Do what you believe is right and that makes you comfortable though. Only you can decide what is the best thing to do. So just go with what you feel and keep praying about it and I'm sure you will know what to do. In the past I used to have problems deciding if I should watch some certain Animes or not. So you're not alone.

 

[ChloeJM]

That's okay.

It's been so long o.o ah why not carry this discussion on haha sorry

I agree, but the same could be said of chocolate.

Hmm I don't really get this point, but I guess I'll just point out that chocolate can lead to sin if you overeat because you love eating it so much... So I guess in comparison sex would be the chocolate and it can lead to sin if used in the wrong way which would be outside of marriage.

Even if there were a God, I don't see why restricting sex like that would be morally required.

Well it is a reoccurring issue unbelievers have about Christian morality. But I don't think it's restricting at all, it's wasting the full potential of a gift. It's moral because God created sex for marriage, for couples to connect and make beautiful babies! Using it for another purpose is not right because He deemed it to be that way.

I agree there can be problems... so it's up to each person what they want to do (and risk) in their lives.

I'm not sure priorities are right putting the 'sanctity of marriage' above emotional scarring, STD's, and unwanted pregnancies.

I guess I was just trying to highlight why marriage is important. But I also think that having that sanctity in the first place is what stops things like emotional scarring, STD's etc. Of course the others are just as important, but I guess cause' we were on the topic of marriage I wanted to stress the importance.

I see no reason for God to make it for that purpose alone, and I don't think the Bible is trustworthy, so I wouldn't think basing morals on that is a good idea (in my opinion).

Even if sex in marriage were ideal, that wouldn't mean sex outside marriage was immoral... it would just be less than ideal.

Well for me anyway, I'd rather base my morals on an experience that I've had personally then on the constantly changing society around me (not to say that it primarily affects you, but it affects the majority of people anyway imo). The Bible speaks about things that have changed my life in so many good ways, and I think even the views of the Bible that are criticised by the community everyday can help lives if people tried to understand and try them out. Sometimes 'religious' people abuse them of course, assuming it gives them a reason to hate people and whatever more... But living by them with a view of love and grace for all people is what is right.

If you believe the Bible (for some reason) I kinda get that... I still think it's potentially dangerous to have beliefs like that though.

I see why you think that, but I could say the same for your views.

If you don't know know why something is wrong or right, but you're just doing what an authority told, it could lead to bad things happening. Of course it would be okay if that authority is perfect, but what if you misinterpret the authority? Christians have done terrible things in the name of God in the past.

So, I think it's safer and more reasonable to try to understand morality for myself.

Well personally I do know why God's word is right... because the right he has put out creates love and the wrong spreads evil and complications. Yes, religion has done many terrible things, heck even Jesus saw religious people who used His Father's name to do terrible things.
If you think that I've misinterpreted the authority, how would you say I've done this?
I could ask you if you've possibly misinterpreted the world and life or what ever authority you might believe in, cause' you might have too. Atheism and other non-religious peps have done just as many terrible things in the name of their beliefs.

Why do you think faith is an okay thing to base your life on? People used to think the Sun went round the Earth because of the Bible, yet it isn't true.

Well surely your morality is faith as well? Not everyone believed that though, what verses are you talking about in particularly? Some have been misinterpreted a lot so it's hard for me to answer. I think a lot of the Bible's description of Earth is not just about this logical science, but more about symbolism and imagery. The descriptions of the sun moving is more about our own perception of the sun, like we say 'sunrise' even though it doesn't rise, it's just how we describe it when we see it (like in Job 9).

Again, I hope my questions and comments are okay.

Yeah, they're great! Thanks for always replying, even when I take 1,000 years to reply. I hope my answers are okay too

 

[ChloeJM]

Actually, masturbation by itself isn't an unwholesome action, just pornography, fornication, etc.

Unless you believe God's also angry with us whenever we have to go to the bathroom (in which case, why make us that way in the first place?).

P.S.: To the OP, minimizing your exposure to yaoi as much as possible is a great start; the Bible itself even recommends avoidance.

Well sure, but doesn't masturbation cause unwholesome thoughts a lot of the time? I don't have much experience in that area per say, but I'd say yeah it's fine if it's to release from built up hormones or what ever but for the majority of people in the world, masturbation can become an addiction.
Yeah, I've been reminding myself about the gouging out my eye verse a lot... thanks for the advice!

Sorry to disturb the thread so suddenly, but I feel the need to speak.

To understand Yaoi one needs to understand Japanese pop-culture.

Nearly everyone in Japan reads comic books, so there are many many genres of comic book. Within the romance genre, there are many sub-genres, Yaoi is one of them.
The psychology: Some women have trouble getting into a said story if there is a female character involved involved in the fictional relationship.
Since Yaoi is man + man there is no female involved in the relationship to incite feelings of low self worth or whatever it may be. So these women who are reading the Yaoi can more easily put themselves in the story.

From a Christian point of view:

If one on the path of Christianity is having a fascination with Yaoi, it is likely a sign that there is something we must learn about ourselves from the Yaoi.
One must be an observer over their life, seeing all that is coming and going from their soul.
When the Yaoi is being read, pay close attention to what is happening in the story, and what feelings you are experiencing, this will likely point to the root of the 'temptation'.

After one finds the root of a problem they are facing, they can tackle it with the wisdom of the bible and the holy spirit.
Christians can transform nearly any force that not serving them into a new force that does serve them.

Never give up!

Wow, that was amazing advice! Thanks! I think the main thing with yaoi for me is just simply the attraction towards the males and the sexual actions... I wouldn't read or watch any of it if I hadn't been opened up to it by society or if my hormones hadn't exploded. >.<

I honestly think that feeling sexual desires is only natural and can't really be helped though it's only right to have sex with someone you truly love and not to just abuse it like a game. Also I'm really not sure if homosexuality is right or wrong, but I'll just watch whatever Anime that I want nowadays and I watch a lot of Yuri, because I think it's just totally cute and I'm kind of wanting to get into Yaoi and am curious. I think that watching Anime with a different way of love styles besides heterosexual is quite interesting, but I love heterosexual Anime too. Do what you believe is right and that makes you comfortable though. Only you can decide what is the best thing to do. So just go with what you feel and keep praying about it and I'm sure you will know what to do. In the past I used to have problems deciding if I should watch some certain Animes or not. So you're not alone.

I get you, I do. but I don't think certain sexual desires should be right just because it comes to us by human nature. Human nature makes us hate and lust immorally and kill etc. Our nature is so unholy, which is the whole point of why Jesus had to die for our, because we won't stop sinning from our nature.

Please, I am warning you, DON'T get into yaoi. It actually destroyed me, it's horrible. I became addicted and I couldn't stop. Society puts the harmless label on such things, but it is SO harmful. It doesn't honour God at all! In the end it all comes down to WWJD. And Jesus would never in his right mind watch yaoi... I don't mean to be so violent, I just don't want you to struggle as I have been for so long.

Thanks though for your lovely suggestion!

 

[Paradoxum]

It's been so long o.o ah why not carry this discussion on haha sorry

Lazy.

Hmm I don't really get this point, but I guess I'll just point out that chocolate can lead to sin if you overeat because you love eating it so much... So I guess in comparison sex would be the chocolate and it can lead to sin if used in the wrong way which would be outside of marriage.

I don't know what my point was either... it was too long ago.

Well it is a reoccurring issue unbelievers have about Christian morality. But I don't think it's restricting at all,

Well I suppose there are some Christians who wouldn't agree with you either.

I don't think you can reasonably say it isn't restricting. If you aren't meant to do X, then you are restricted from doing X. It's by definition restrictive.

You might not want to have sex outside marriage for personal reasons, and their a fair opinion to have. My problem is claiming that it's to do with morality.

it's wasting the full potential of a gift.

Well you can still have sex in marriage too.

It's moral because God created sex for marriage, for couples to connect and make beautiful babies! Using it for another purpose is not right because He deemed it to be that way.

But why would God creating sex for that make it moral only for sex to be used for that? Imagine if you used that reasoning for something else. If someone makes a pen to write, is it immoral to use it to scratch you back with? Of course not.

The opinion of the creator is irrelevant to whether something is immoral. If it's yours, then you can do with it what you wish (as long as you don't violate others).

Also, why would God say sex could only be used like that? If someone is having sex safely and consensually, and having fun, why would God say that they shouldn't? There's no reason to claim that sex in marriage is more important than sexual freedom. There is nothing to back up that claim... it comes down to the feelings of each individual. Though I'm not saying morality is subjective. Sex in marriage isn't better, just like chocolate isn't better than vanilla... it's individual preference.

I guess I was just trying to highlight why marriage is important. But I also think that having that sanctity in the first place is what stops things like emotional scarring, STD's etc. Of course the others are just as important, but I guess cause' we were on the topic of marriage I wanted to stress the importance.

It's up to people what they want to risk. Risking STD's isn't immoral, like risking injury from sport isn't immoral.

Well for me anyway, I'd rather base my morals on an experience that I've had personally then on the constantly changing society around me (not to say that it primarily affects you, but it affects the majority of people anyway imo). The Bible speaks about things that have changed my life in so many good ways, and I think even the views of the Bible that are criticised by the community everyday can help lives if people tried to understand and try them out. Sometimes 'religious' people abuse them of course, assuming it gives them a reason to hate people and whatever more... But living by them with a view of love and grace for all people is what is right.

I agree that there are some nice bits in the Bible... I just don't think it's more than that.

Some people would claim that they have personal experience that the Quran has changed their life for the better.

That isn't a good way to get morals. It can justify anything.

I see why you think that, but I could say the same for your views.

Why you think me using reason to figure out what is moral is potentially dangerous?

If morality is real, then there must be reasoning behind it.

Well personally I do know why God's word is right... because the right he has put out creates love and the wrong spreads evil and complications. Yes, religion has done many terrible things, heck even Jesus saw religious people who used His Father's name to do terrible things.
If you think that I've misinterpreted the authority, how would you say I've done this?

Assuming the Bible is perfect. Even if there's a God, the Bible could be fallible, or only relevant to the time it was written.

I could ask you if you've possibly misinterpreted the world and life or what ever authority you might believe in, cause' you might have too. Atheism and other non-religious peps have done just as many terrible things in the name of their beliefs.

I could be wrong, but I try to use reason to figure out what is right. That's more reliable than just believing a book.

I don't think many atheists have killed in the name of atheism. They might have for fascism, or communism, but those are their motivations. But many Christians have killed for their religion. Not that I'm saying all Christians are murderers.

Well surely your morality is faith as well?

I try to base it on reason, so I can try to give a reason why X is wrong... not just because someone said so.

Not everyone believed that though, what verses are you talking about in particularly? Some have been misinterpreted a lot so it's hard for me to answer. I think a lot of the Bible's description of Earth is not just about this logical science, but more about symbolism and imagery. The descriptions of the sun moving is more about our own perception of the sun, like we say 'sunrise' even though it doesn't rise, it's just how we describe it when we see it (like in Job 9).

Well most people probably did believe the Sun went round the Earth at one point. I think some religious people pointed to the bit in the Bible where it says that God stopped the Sun moving (during a fight in the OT).

I agree there are different ways of interpreting the Bible. That's why it might be best to not to always rely on the Bible... use evidence and reason.

Yeah, they're great! Thanks for always replying, even when I take 1,000 years to reply. I hope my answers are okay too

Yeah, you make good points. I try not to be harsh in my replies by accident.

Sorry for writing alot.

 

[ChloeJM]

Lazy.

I don't think you can reasonably say it isn't restricting. If you aren't meant to do X, then you are restricted from doing X. It's by definition restrictive.

You might not want to have sex outside marriage for personal reasons, and their a fair opinion to have. My problem is claiming that it's to do with morality.

When I say restricting I meant negatively, but you are right I put that wrong. I just don't think that restriction (in this case) is bad.
I totally understand you, it is important for a person not to be too deontological sometimes. But I don't see why sex outside of marriage needs to be done anyway because it's desirable, I think it's so much better and more appropriate for people to develop the relationship and make a promise in front of the Lord before approaching sex.

But why would God creating sex for that make it moral only for sex to be used for that? Imagine if you used that reasoning for something else. If someone makes a pen to write, is it immoral to use it to scratch you back with? Of course not.

The opinion of the creator is irrelevant to whether something is immoral. If it's yours, then you can do with it what you wish (as long as you don't violate others).

I don't think you can compare a man-made invention with God's morals, they hold completely different aspects. A pen can have flexible uses, but morality is about behaviour and guidance.
Why does the opinion of the creator have to be irrelevant?

Also, why would God say sex could only be used like that? If someone is having sex safely and consensually, and having fun, why would God say that they shouldn't? There's no reason to claim that sex in marriage is more important than sexual freedom. There is nothing to back up that claim... it comes down to the feelings of each individual. Though I'm not saying morality is subjective. Sex in marriage isn't better, just like chocolate isn't better than vanilla... it's individual preference.

Sex is so powerful in creating intimacy that God knew there must be some constraints on how it was to be used, so He specifically relegated sex to the arena of marriage. It's logical as to why God would enforce this, without it the use of sex would be abused a lot more.
Having non-marriage sex through safety and consent does not make it harmless, there are so many relational consequences people turn a blind eye towards, they pre-harm marital sex. I would give you a whole list of reasons but I'm sure a quick google search will do that for you.
The constraint on sex is about true love, true love would be patient in waiting for the proper time for sex because it is patient and kind.
Well I kinda have a problem with preference, it's just about leaning towards what you like and it shouldn't be about that because our human nature in many ways is twisted.

It's up to people what they want to risk. Risking STD's isn't immoral, like risking injury from sport isn't immoral.

Yeah, it is up to people what they risk, but that doesn't make it right (morally speaking). Why would you even choose to risk STD's? Risking injury for sports makes sense because the benefits of sport are substantially more that what you would get from having sex before they get treatment.

That isn't a good way to get morals. It can justify anything.

Well I'm sure if people were clever enough by using their own logic, they could justify anything about the world too. But one of the main points of the Bible is that right from the beginning of life, there are things that can never be justified, so this teaching would contradict its only teachings if the Bible did end up starting to justify everything.

Why you think me using reason to figure out what is moral is potentially dangerous?

If morality is real, then there must be reasoning behind it.

Because human logic is prone to so many factors in life, I have never met a person who can use logic objectively without looking towards societies ways and human nature and their own conditioning from growing up to figure out what is moral. Of course you can argue though that that also applies to me as well.

Assuming the Bible is perfect. Even if there's a God, the Bible could be fallible, or only relevant to the time it was written.

Yep that's true, translations can be wobbily and there are parts of the Bible that only specifically apply to society back then. But it specifically talks about the future and humanity as a whole throughout the ages, not just for that time. As for the translations, I just fully trust in the Lord that the original Hebrew/Aramaic/whatever Bible is true to its word, He didn't gain my belief through me reading the Bible, but by changing my life around when I was younger and rapped in evil. I prayed, and He answered, and so I prayed again and it worked again, in time.

I could be wrong, but I try to use reason to figure out what is right. That's more reliable than just believing a book.

But I don't just believe in a book! My whole belief is in GOD! I don't just understand human behaviour and morals from His word, but through prayer and miracles and testimonies and observation of the world. I don't just read the Bible and that's the be all and end all of my existence.

I don't think many atheists have killed in the name of atheism. They might have for fascism, or communism, but those are their motivations. But many Christians have killed for their religion. Not that I'm saying all Christians are murderers.

Yeah you're right... I just don't want people to assume that just because other religious people have twisted the scripture for their own crimes, doesn't make it bad scripture.

I try to base it on reason, so I can try to give a reason why X is wrong... not just because someone said so.

I agree there are different ways of interpreting the Bible. That's why it might be best to not to always rely on the Bible... use evidence and reason.

I don't always rely on the Bible though, I use reason through what I have observed through miracles, prayer and the behaviour of humans in general. I read that God has said X is wrong, and then I go on to discover why (which cannot be agreed by everyone because of various factors).
Mind if I ask, what kind of logic do you like to use for yourself?

Too be very honest with you, I've hardly read the Bible. Most of my faith is built upon my experience with being a Christian and the things I've questioned myself.

[/QUOTE]Yeah, you make good points. I try not to be harsh in my replies by accident.

Sorry for writing alot.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, you too!

 

[Paradoxum]

When I say restricting I meant negatively, but you are right I put that wrong. I just don't think that restriction (in this case) is bad.
I totally understand you, it is important for a person not to be too deontological sometimes. But I don't see why sex outside of marriage needs to be done anyway because it's desirable, I think it's so much better and more appropriate for people to develop the relationship and make a promise in front of the Lord before approaching sex.

I wouldn't claim that sex outside marriage NEEDS to be done because its desirable. You don't NEED to be chocolate, but if you desire to do it, it isn't wrong. I'd say the same about sex.

I don't think you can compare a man-made invention with God's morals, they hold completely different aspects. A pen can have flexible uses, but morality is about behaviour and guidance.
Why does the opinion of the creator have to be irrelevant?

Why are the different? God is just a guy with an opinion on what other people should do with their private lives. Why would his subjective opinion be relevant?

There's a guy called Bob. Bob made the universe. Bob says kissing is wrong. Why does it matter what Bob says?

Sex is so powerful in creating intimacy that God knew there must be some constraints on how it was to be used, so He specifically relegated sex to the arena of marriage. It's logical as to why God would enforce this, without it the use of sex would be abused a lot more.

But if sex is 'abused', isn't that up to those involved?

Perhaps you could try to say that lots of meaningless sex is unwise... but you can't jump from something being unwise to it being wrong. That is what you seem to be doing.

Something seeming like a bad idea doesn't make it immoral.

Having non-marriage sex through safety and consent does not make it harmless, there are so many relational consequences people turn a blind eye towards, they pre-harm marital sex. I would give you a whole list of reasons but I'm sure a quick google search will do that for you.

If I say harm, I mean a non-consensual violation. What matters is if someone consents, not whether they are harm. Punching yourself isn't immoral (and nor is boxing).

The constraint on sex is about true love, true love would be patient in waiting for the proper time for sex because it is patient and kind.

There's alot of assumptions there. I say there is no objective 'proper time'. You assume that only having sex with your 'true love' is ideal. I don't agree. There's nothing wrong with sex before true love, just like there's nothing wrong with hugging, kissing, or talking before true love.

Well I kinda have a problem with preference, it's just about leaning towards what you like and it shouldn't be about that because our human nature in many ways is twisted.

So you disagree with someone eating chocolate, because they like it? I don't think you have a problem with personal preference.

Of course preference isn't always right. If someone annoys you, and you imagine shooting them... you probably shouldn't actually do it. But that's about violating someone. Consensual sex doesn't violate anyone.

Yeah, it is up to people what they risk, but that doesn't make it right (morally speaking). Why would you even choose to risk STD's? Risking injury for sports makes sense because the benefits of sport are substantially more that what you would get from having sex before they get treatment.

Because someone values the benefits of sex are more than the risk.

I once asked someone why they smoked, consider the risk. Clearly the risk is huge, and they don't appear to gain anything (and it costs alot). They told me that they valued the quality of their life, more than the quantity of it. They enjoy smoking, and that's the way they are happy living and risking dying.

You might not do the same thing, but you can't objectively say that they are incorrect to value things that way.

Well I'm sure if people were clever enough by using their own logic, they could justify anything about the world too. But one of the main points of the Bible is that right from the beginning of life, there are things that can never be justified, so this teaching would contradict its only teachings if the Bible did end up starting to justify everything.

There are things that can't be justified according to the Bible? Like what? Genocide and slavery (which are in the Bible)?

Because human logic is prone to so many factors in life, I have never met a person who can use logic objectively without looking towards societies ways and human nature and their own conditioning from growing up to figure out what is moral. Of course you can argue though that that also applies to me as well.

People are biased, but I think that coming to your own conclusions is safer than following an old book.

Yep that's true, translations can be wobbily and there are parts of the Bible that only specifically apply to society back then. But it specifically talks about the future and humanity as a whole throughout the ages, not just for that time. As for the translations, I just fully trust in the Lord that the original Hebrew/Aramaic/whatever Bible is true to its word, He didn't gain my belief through me reading the Bible, but by changing my life around when I was younger and rapped in evil. I prayed, and He answered, and so I prayed again and it worked again, in time.

I've had 'religious experiences'... I just don't think they were God now. Coincidence and psychology.

But I don't just believe in a book! My whole belief is in GOD! I don't just understand human behaviour and morals from His word, but through prayer and miracles and testimonies and observation of the world. I don't just read the Bible and that's the be all and end all of my existence.

Prayer seems even less reliable. People don't get clear and always correct information from prayer.

I don't always rely on the Bible though, I use reason through what I have observed through miracles, prayer and the behaviour of humans in general. I read that God has said X is wrong, and then I go on to discover why (which cannot be agreed by everyone because of various factors).
Mind if I ask, what kind of logic do you like to use for yourself?

What do you mean?

Too be very honest with you, I've hardly read the Bible. Most of my faith is built upon my experience with being a Christian and the things I've questioned myself.

So why do you think sex outside marriage is wrong? Because it can sometimes be harmful? So is boxing wrong?

Because it's not always done in true love? Is playing tennis with someone who isn't your true love wrong?

Because sex can connect people, so it should only connect you with your true love? But deep and personal discussions with a friend can connect you. So is deep friendship wrong?

Thank you, you too!

 

[ChloeJM]

I wouldn't claim that sex outside marriage NEEDS to be done because its desirable. You don't NEED to be chocolate, but if you desire to do it, it isn't wrong. I'd say the same about sex.

Okay, I'll put it another way for fit the chocolate scenario. For believers, it is okay to desire sex inside of marriage and it's okay to desire chocolate to eat in moderation. But it would be wrong to desire sex outside of marriage and to desire chocolate to eat in excessive amounts (i.e. gluttony). I understand that you would disagree that it isn't wrong to do either because it comes down to the person, and yes it does, but because we believe in the Bible we don't believe it's right.

Why are the different? God is just a guy with an opinion on what other people should do with their private lives. Why would his subjective opinion be relevant?

There's a guy called Bob. Bob made the universe. Bob says kissing is wrong. Why does it matter what Bob says?

God is not just a guy with an opinion on what other people should do with their private lives. You're comparing God to a human, but he's a divine being! His nature and works are so different to ours, he can literally do and make and be anything, so of course it would be possible for him to issue laws for us without being subjective. It wouldn't be for us arguably, but that's because we're only human. It matters what he said because the whole purpose of creating us and giving us this world was to follow His purpose for us. People don't like that purpose because they're caught up in love with their own evil.

John 3: 19-21 "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.”

But if sex is 'abused', isn't that up to those involved?

Perhaps you could try to say that lots of meaningless sex is unwise... but you can't jump from something being unwise to it being wrong. That is what you seem to be doing.

Something seeming like a bad idea doesn't make it immoral.

It is, which is why we have free will. But if we knew what was right, we would choose not to abuse sex. I'm not saying that sex outside of marriage is meaningless, instead that it is wrong because it is clearly a law in the Bible. Unless there is some kind of extreme scenario where a couple must save their lives or another person's life by having sex outside of marriage... A bit like the Bible story of the women who saved a group of lives by lying. God did not approve of those who lied, but did not rebuke or punish them. So there are exceptions when it comes to saving a life because that is the ultimate love you can have for a friend, to give ones life or save theirs.

If I say harm, I mean a non-consensual violation. What matters is if someone consents, not whether they are harm. Punching yourself isn't immoral (and nor is boxing).

That's an understandable opinion. Of course, I disagree though. For me, consensual violation (against God) is wrong, and sure consent is very important, but so is God's laws.

There's alot of assumptions there. I say there is no objective 'proper time'. You assume that only having sex with your 'true love' is ideal. I don't agree. There's nothing wrong with sex before true love, just like there's nothing wrong with hugging, kissing, or talking before true love.

Having sex is a whole new level compared to hugging, kissing and talking though. It's okay to do the latter with others because they don't have to be sexual/intimate, but God created sex purely for intimacy and procreation and for it to be done between a couple that has established a promise and trust through marriage.

So you disagree with someone eating chocolate, because they like it? I don't think you have a problem with personal preference.

Of course preference isn't always right. If someone annoys you, and you imagine shooting them... you probably shouldn't actually do it. But that's about violating someone. Consensual sex doesn't violate anyone.

No no no, what I disagree with is to base your life decisions just on your preferences. You need to take into account whether or not it is right. Which is why it's okay for someone to eat chocolate, because it isn't wrong and so the preference is fine.
Consensual sex violates God and His law if committed outside of marriage.

Because someone values the benefits of sex are more than the risk.

I once asked someone why they smoked, consider the risk. Clearly the risk is huge, and they don't appear to gain anything (and it costs alot). They told me that they valued the quality of their life, more than the quantity of it. They enjoy smoking, and that's the way they are happy living and risking dying.

You might not do the same thing, but you can't objectively say that they are incorrect to value things that way.

You're right, I can't. But subjectively speaking then, I do.

There are things that can't be justified according to the Bible? Like what? Genocide and slavery (which are in the Bible)?

No, genocide was justifiable because of the evil doings of the people. Israel would NOT have been justified in their attack had God not commanded it of them…and the Bible indicates that God had morally sufficient reason to do so. But God never said in the Bible that he approved of slavery. The slavery of the Bible is much different to the slavery we think of nowadays. In fact, anybody who was caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed. However, since voluntary slavery was widely practiced during biblical times, the Bible proscribes laws to protect the lives and health of slaves. Paul virtually ordered the Christian Philemon to release his Christian slave from his service to "do what is proper". In addition, numerous verses from the New Testament show that God values slaves as much as any free person and is not partial to anyone's standing before other people. (If you want to understand more about those issues, it would be easier for you to search it up because I'm really not an expert )

Prayer seems even less reliable. People don't get clear and always correct information from prayer.

Well, as a believer, I say yes they do.

What do you mean?

You talked about how you judge your morals (or whatever you believe about life) through logic. So I was wondering what that logic was. Is it just about whether someone is harmed?

So why do you think sex outside marriage is wrong? Because it can sometimes be harmful? So is boxing wrong?

Because it's not always done in true love? Is playing tennis with someone who isn't your true love wrong?

Because sex can connect people, so it should only connect you with your true love? But deep and personal discussions with a friend can connect you. So is deep friendship wrong?

No, because the Bible tells me so. It should only connect people through marriage because that initial promise is what true love is about I suppose. (When I said I've hardly read the Bible, I kinda meant that I haven't read all of it. But I have read the most talked about parts, and so I know about all of the laws and the parables and more. I guess I should've put that differently. God's word is just as sacred as Himself.)