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Do you agree with this statement?

MoreCoffee

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Of course she was His mother...biologically, not spiritually.

That's where the reality of her being His mother ends and the "concept of motherhood" "developes" into radical abstractions that turn scripture on its head.

Mary is Jesus mother in every way that a mother can be. I do not know what you mean by "spiritually" but Mary surely taught Jesus about God as a mother should, and Joseph his step father would have taught Jesus about God and about the temple and the rituals in which Jesus was expected to play a part as he grew up. That's spiritual training. But perhaps you meant something else?
 
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MoreCoffee

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Female egg + male sperm=child. The Holy Spirit created the human flesh of the embryonic Jesus, Mary did not create Jesus, she carried Him in her womb...

There's a lot of speculating in your post. Do you have any scripture or official SDA doctrine to base all that speculating upon?
 
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Rick Otto

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Mary is Jesus mother in every way that a mother can be. I do not know what you mean by "spiritually" but Mary surely taught Jesus about God as a mother should, and Joseph his step father would have taught Jesus about God and about the temple and the rituals in which Jesus was expected to play a part as he grew up. That's spiritual training. But perhaps you meant something else?
Perhaps you already knew I meant He is eternal and you were just trying to minimize my point that defeats Mary's deification...

...perhaps.
 
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prodromos

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Female egg + male sperm=child. The Holy Spirit created the human flesh of the embryonic Jesus, Mary did not create Jesus, she carried Him in her womb. "She was found with child of the Holy Spirit."---"For that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." Surrogate mother. The creation of the human Jesus is through the power of the Holy Spirit. Today, an embryo may be implanted into the womb of another woman--the Holy Spirit needed no medical instruments for this procedure, the power to take a Divine being being and transform Him into an human embryo was not of Mary. Being a surrogate mother to the Son of God is a supreme honor enough for anyone, but she did not create Him--the Holy Spirit did.

No mother "creates" her child, God does. Your statement suggests you are elevating your own mother to a position higher than that which the Church does with Mary, since creation of new life is something only God can do.

If Christ did not receive His human nature from a human (Mary) then His nature would have been a parallel nature separate from our own. His death and resurrection would have impacted ONLY His parallel human nature and would have had no impact on our own. Thus death for us would not be defeated and we have no hope of salvation.
 
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mmksparbud

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There's a lot of speculating in your post. Do you have any scripture or official SDA doctrine to base all that speculating upon?

Ok, folks--I am not here to bash, put down or tick off anyone. I am not here to create WW 3. This is a sensitive subject for some people and a huge road block to many Protestants, not just SDA's. I will try to word this as sensitively as possible, but let's get down to brass tacks.

Speculation???----Coffee--are you saying that Mary had one of her eggs fertilized by the sperm of the Holy Spirit in order to make her a "mother in every way?????" To call Mary the Mother of Jesus in every way is not accurate unless you believe the above. That is not something that I would in any way believe and is very much speculation. God created Adam--He is His Creator Father, but God is not Adam's, or our, biological Father!!!! He is our creator Father! It was the only way to produce Adam and Eve, create them and breathe life into them. We are the biological descendents of Adam and Eve.The same Creator of Adam, God the Father, God the Spirit, God the Son, (according to the bible) created this world and Adam and Eve---"Let US make man in OUR image."--It says Christ created everything that was created. Yet all were present. The 3 Musketeers--all for one and one for all, sort of speaking. And the whole concept of the Trinity is a study in itself that no one understands. They are one, but not, Christ did not pray all night long to Himself nor did He say, Father forgive them, to Himself. The Trinity is not the question put forth for now, though.
My stepmother mother raised me, a biological mother could have done no better. But she is not my biological mother, which diminishes her in no way. It's just a biological fact. The whole process of Mary being used by God to carry the Christ is not one we can, now, totally minutely understand. Speculation runs rampant on the whole thing of Mary being "forever Virgin", which is not stated in scripture. On her being our intercessor when the bible says clearly that Christ alone is our intercessor. When even Christ points to the crowd and says they are His mother and brothers, He did not elevate her to any lofty position, but set her as another human---and we are not to bow down and worship any human, nor their image. (Not even anyone on this earth nor in heaven) When Christ taught the disciples to pray, He said "our Father, which art in heaven"--never did He even slightly suggest to pray to Mary.
Mary was the chosen vessel of God to carry the Eternal Son of God, in His humanity (which God created in the first place and can create any time and will recreate again at the end of time). Please do not tell me that the Creator of this whole entire universe (without any help from us) could not use all His power (Their power) to change the Eternal one into a human--He is the originator of what a human is! It was Christs choice to become human, and what He proposes, He does!! Anything else is, indeed, speculation!

And you know what else---Right now, I really don't care what the SDA doctrine on this subject teaches! There is nothing in the bible that says we pray to, bow down to, worship, adore, venerate, anyone but God. Nowhere does the bible say Mary is our mother or the mother of the church, that she was the mother of Christ "in every way", that she was a virgin forever, All of that, and much more, is traditional, doctrinal, church hierarchy speculation!!!-----hmmmmm---no offense!?:prayer:
.
And I think it's time for the milk and pretzels.
 
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MoreCoffee

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What I am saying is what I read in the bible. Mary was a virgin and she received a message by the words of an angel who told her that she would become pregnant. The wording is as follows:
The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.​
I am not going to enter into the speculation about how that worked in biological terms.
 
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mmksparbud

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What I am saying is what I read in the bible. Mary was a virgin and she received a message by the words of an angel who told her that she would become pregnant. The wording is as follows:
The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.​
I am not going to enter into the speculation about how that worked in biological terms.


Exactly as worded is all that I am saying!!! The power of the Holy Spirit--the CHILD WILL BE HOLY--speculation is what has brought about the doctrines followed!!
 
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MyLordMySavior

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Without Christ but with Mary, I am nothing. Without Mary but with Christ, I am everything.

Jesus is, was, and has always been, so no, I don't agree. God would have come down to save us, with or without Mary- no offense. She's blessed to be chosen though! But, we are all blessed, and the only one who deserves to be put on a pedestal is God.
 
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Targaryen

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Without Christ but with Mary, I am nothing. Without Mary but with Christ, I am everything.

Jesus is, was, and has always been, so no, I don't agree. God would have come down to save us, with or without Mary- no offense. She's blessed to be chosen though! But, we are all blessed, and the only one who deserves to be put on a pedestal is God.
Great...but not the point of the thread.
 
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MyLordMySavior

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Yeah, honestly, I wonder if Mary's genetic traits are in Jesus's DNA at all. For all we now, God could have literally just started creating Jesus cells out of nothing. We don't know! Maybe He just used her literally as a vessel, as in her amniotic sac and uterus. Maybe He didn't even use her eggs.
 
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Targaryen

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The point was do you agree, I said no, and said why. Not sure what you are missing here


"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

That was the question...so you when off the tracks without even addressing the Church issue,never mind a rather faulty understanding of orthodox thought when it comes to Christ's incarnation.
 
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Rick Otto

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"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

That was the question...so you when off the tracks without even addressing the Church issue,never mind a rather faulty understanding of orthodox thought when it comes to Christ's incarnation.

Listen. If you can't appreciate getting the underlying assumptions of the question addressed without seeing its relevance, maybe you should be poiite enough to ask someone before being insulting about it.
 
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Rick Otto

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Yeah, honestly, I wonder if Mary's genetic traits are in Jesus's DNA at all. For all we now, God could have literally just started creating Jesus cells out of nothing. We don't know! Maybe He just used her literally as a vessel, as in her amniotic sac and uterus. Maybe He didn't even use her eggs.

Slow down a minute, ma'am.
Let's keep our understanding of His humanity to be as intimately complete as we can.
 
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Rick Otto

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Without Christ but with Mary, I am nothing. Without Mary but with Christ, I am everything.

Jesus is, was, and has always been, so no, I don't agree. God would have come down to save us, with or without Mary- no offense. She's blessed to be chosen though! But, we are all blessed, and the only one who deserves to be put on a pedestal is God.

I'll be you "little yes man" for that post, sister.
 
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MyLordMySavior

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"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

That was the question...so you when off the tracks without even addressing the Church issue,never mind a rather faulty understanding of orthodox thought when it comes to Christ's incarnation.

Maybe I have to get really simple for you. Sometimes I miss the obvious too, so I understand.

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Without Christ but with Mary, I am nothing. Without Mary but with Christ, I am everything.

Jesus is, was, and has always been, so no, I don't agree. God would have come down to save us, with or without Mary- no offense. She's blessed to be chosen though! But, we are all blessed, and the only one who deserves to be put on a pedestal is God.
__________________

Thread topic, do you agree or no?

Answer: No, I don't agree

Addresses church issue by stating my opinion- bam, answered.

I continued to explain why.

Explanation: God would have come down to save us, with or without Mary- no offense.

To make sure I did not hurt any catholics feelings, I made a softer statement to follow.

Follow up: She's blessed to be chosen though!

Final sentence was a proclamation. I already answered the thread topic but added this for an extra little sizzle, which is okay because as long as I answered the topic, there should be no reason to get upset.

Final: But, we are all blessed, and the only one who deserves to be put on a pedestal is God.

All other topics is a further explanation to why I disagree.

I don't agree that we wouldn't have Jesus if we didn't have Mary because...

Without Christ but with Mary, I am nothing. Without Mary but with Christ, I am everything.

Jesus is, was, and has always been, so

aka Jesus is enternal. And because you got snarky about that, I'll provide reasons to why I said this.

John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He existed in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us.
Job 36:26 Look, God is greater than we can understand. His years cannot be counted.

Those are some. That is why I said Jesus is (present), was (present), and has always been (present). I was basically saying Jesus is eternal, so Jesus was before Mary- just not the flesh Jesus. Don't really want to argue this, you just seemed snarky so I am clarifying.

Hope I made things easier. :angel:
 
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James Is Back

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Yeah, honestly, I wonder if Mary's genetic traits are in Jesus's DNA at all. For all we now, God could have literally just started creating Jesus cells out of nothing. We don't know! Maybe He just used her literally as a vessel, as in her amniotic sac and uterus. Maybe He didn't even use her eggs.

And you base this on what?
 
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MyLordMySavior

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Slow down a minute, ma'am.
Let's keep our understanding of His humanity to be as intimately complete as we can.

Lol, you can't blame me for being curious. These are definitely going to be the type of questions I am going to ask when I die.
 
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Targaryen

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Listen. If you can't appreciate getting the underlying assumptions of the question addressed without seeing its relevance, maybe you should be poiite enough to ask someone before being insulting about it.

Something you've yet to do but yet when someone attacks the type of rhetoric you hold, fair game right?

Sorry, I don't play that type of game.
 
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