Difficulties with Premillennialism & Dispensationalism

[Danoh]

The dispensation ('oikonomia') of the fulness of times is present, says Eph 1. Only one time is it used there in the future sense but from the point of view of the OT person.

Okay, so prove it - the balance of the passage and its sister "all things" passages appear to affirm otherwise.

 

[Biblewriter]

Is condescension your security blanket, Biblewriter? I notice you use it a lot.

Or are you implying my 1909 and 1917 Scofield Reference "Bibles" do not teach dispensationalism? Or are you implying my preachers for the past 20 years or so are not teaching dispensationalism? Maybe I should be asking:

Do you believe that you are a part of the elect? Do you believe that you are a saint?


.

I speak like this only when I see people accusing us of teaching things we simple do not teach.

I spoke ion this way earlier because you claimed that an event that took place in the first year of Hezekiah was a fulfillment of a prophecy in Jeremiah.

But the times between the event and the earliest possible date of the prophecy are:

28 The years of Hezekiah's reign after the event took place.
55 The years of Manassah's reign.
2 The years Amon's reign
13 The years Josiah reigned before Jeremiah began to prophesy.
----
98 The minimum number of years between the event and the earliest
possible time of the prophecy.

So you basically claimed that the prophecy was fulfilled a hundred years before it was made!

And although I did not mention it in my previous answer, you dismissed the many explicitly stated prophecies about the future restoration of all of Israel by (correctly) pointing out that the real Israel is only a remnant of physical Israel. But if you had bothered to actually read the prophecies I quoted, you would have seen that they explicitly say that the Lord will begin that restoration by removing all the rebels from their midst. That is, by removing of Israel except their righteous remnant. And then they explicitly say that all that are left will actually repent and turn back to Him with their whole hearts.

So the very texts you dismissed with that argument had already answered you before you made the argument.

 

[Biblewriter]

The dispensation ('oikonomia') of the fulness of times is present, says Eph 1. Only one time is it used there in the future sense but from the point of view of the OT person.

That is not what Ephesians 1:10 says.

 

[ebedmelech]

That is not what Ephesians 1:10 says.

That's exactly what it says. Christ is presently OVER ALL THINGS! It says so in Ephesians 1:18-23!

Paul repeats it for you in Colossians 1:17-20:
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Now that's the situation as it currently stands Biblewriter! The only ones that don't know that are the unbelievers...but they will when Christ returns!

 

[Daniel1136]

"That is, by removing of Israel except their righteous remnant. And then they explicitly say that all that are left will actually repent and turn back to Him with their whole hearts."


You are exactly correct BW

Only all of the mortals believing Israel will be saved to enter the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth [Romans 11:25-36]

The balance will be killed in the tribulation and lost forever [Zechariah 13:8-9]

Don't let the preterists jerk you around

 

[ebedmelech]

"That is, by removing of Israel except their righteous remnant. And then they explicitly say that all that are left will actually repent and turn back to Him with their whole hearts."


You are exactly correct BW

Only all of the mortals believing Israel will be saved to enter the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth [Romans 11:25-36]

The balance will be killed in the tribulation and lost forever [Zechariah 13:8-9]

Don't let the preterists jerk you around

You're doing the jerking!

Nothing says that! The fact is, if you understand what's going on in the passage, it tells you Gentiles and Israel are ONE OLIVE TREE grafted together.

So the TWO become ONE!

When Paul says at Romans 11:26 " and so all Israel will be saved;"...it is best rendered "and IN THIS WAY all Israel will be saved".

Do the word study and that's EXACTLY what it says!

It doesn't matter what you think or believe according to your theology...that's what it is.

 

[Daniel1136]

You're doing the jerking!


That's what you think

 

[ebedmelech]

You're doing the jerking!


That's what you think

I deal with what I know...and I know your eschatology misses the mark.

Keep running with it though.

 

[Danoh]

That's exactly what it says. Christ is presently OVER ALL THINGS! It says so in Ephesians 1:18-23!

Paul repeats it for you in Colossians 1:17-20:
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Now that's the situation as it currently stands Biblewriter! The only ones that don't know that are the unbelievers...but they will when Christ returns!

Nope. That's not it.

The fullness that passage is referring to is the means by which He will fill all in all - via the Body He is the Head of.

Fortunately, Paul having been a Futurist; left a sister passage you cannot gainsay - Eph. 1: 22, 23.

Eph. 2:4:7 are also sister passages to the one you quoted in Colossians - Paul was a Futurist,

 

[ebedmelech]

Nope. That's not it.

The fullness that passage is referring to is the means by which He will fill all in all - via the Body He is the Head of.

Fortunately, Paul having been a Futurist; left a sister passage you cannot gainsay - Eph. 1: 22, 23.

Eph. 2:4:7 are also sister passages to the one you quoted in Colossians - Paul was a Futurist,

Wrong again! That Mid-Acts perspective just keeps failing you. Christ dwells in us by the Holy Spirit but the FULLNESS Paul is speaking of in EPHESIANS 1 is a time factor! Ephesians 1:10:
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Are you getting there Danoh? This speaking of Christ receiving His authority from the Father.

So as I said, I say once again...the fullness of time is Jesus when HE BECAME SIN FOR US. He paid our sin debt Danoh, and in doing so God EXHALTED HIM TO BE THE PROMISE TO DAVID...that His descendant would establish His throne forever!

 

[Danoh]

Wrong again! That Mid-Acts perspective just keeps failing you. Christ dwells in us by the Holy Spirit but the FULLNESS Paul is speaking of in EPHESIANS 1 is a time factor! Ephesians 1:10:
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Are you getting there Danoh? This speaking of Christ receiving His authority from the Father.

So as I said, I say once again...the fullness of time is Jesus when HE BECAME SIN FOR US. He paid our sin debt Danoh, and in doing so God EXHALTED HIM TO BE THE PROMISE TO DAVID...that His descendant would establish His throne forever!

Lol, what - did you run into an oversupply on symbolism rejects on sale at a Dollar Tree or something. Thanks for the laugh

 

[Rev20]

I speak like this only when I see people accusing us of teaching things we simple do not teach.

I spoke ion this way earlier because you claimed that an event that took place in the first year of Hezekiah was a fulfillment of a prophecy in Jeremiah.

But the times between the event and the earliest possible date of the prophecy are:

28 The years of Hezekiah's reign after the event took place.
55 The years of Manassah's reign.
2 The years Amon's reign
13 The years Josiah reigned before Jeremiah began to prophesy.
----
98 The minimum number of years between the event and the earliest
possible time of the prophecy.

So you basically claimed that the prophecy was fulfilled a hundred years before it was made!

Sometimes, Biblewriter, it seems you have trouble comprehending what you read. Either that, or your mind is made up, and you do not want to be confused with the facts.

This is my exact statement:

"The regathering of the northern ten tribes began under Hezekiah, prior to the Babylonian captivity:"​

There is no mention of fulfillment in my statement: only the beginning. And those got carried away into Babylon and had to be re-regathered, in a manner of speaking.

After that I mentioned the regathering under the decree of Cyrus. And finally the second regathering under Christ's ministry (not to discount the ministry of his disciples); which incidentally occurred when Christ and his disciples were sent for the lost sheep, as explained in Matthew 10 and 15.
.

And although I did not mention it in my previous answer, you dismissed the many explicitly stated prophecies about the future restoration of all of Israel by (correctly) pointing out that the real Israel is only a remnant of physical Israel. But if you had bothered to actually read the prophecies I quoted, you would have seen that they explicitly say that the Lord will begin that restoration by removing all the rebels from their midst. That is, by removing of Israel except their righteous remnant. And then they explicitly say that all that are left will actually repent and turn back to Him with their whole hearts. So the very texts you dismissed with that argument had already answered you before you made the argument.

Biblewriter, it appears that much of what you believe is some sort of wishful thinking (for whatever reason). For example, you included:

“Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7) “And so all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26)​

That is quite the stretch to link those two verses. First, the theme of the prophecy was a phase of the carrying away of Judah into Babylon. And the verse you supplied, Jer 24:7, was simply the Lord promising them they would return. But, as you are aware, in many other places it is prophesied that the return was conditional: only a small remnant returned ("very small" in two verses).

But this is another part of that verse dispensationalist's tend to severely misinterpret:

"… they shall return to Me with their whole heart".​

Well, did they? Did they return to the Lord with their whole heart? The answer is a resounding, No! Nor did they ever!

That verse simply demonstrates God's form of (how shall I say it?) "wishful thinking," which he has shown from even before there was an Israel:

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." -- Gen 17:9​

Even though God appeared to say that Israel would keep His covenant, we all know they did not keep his covenant in any way, shape or form. They even rejected God as their king, in the days of Samuel, and rejected his Son in the most brutal manner.

God is like any parent. He wants the best for us. And he does his share of "wishful thinking", hoping all will come to repentance. But it is too late for all but the living; and late for many of the living: those who stubbornly refuse to turn their hearts to the Lord.


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[Bible2]

BABerean2 said in post 107:

In 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 1 Paul describes Christ as returning in "flaming fire".

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, which will occur before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Note that 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 doesn't say that "all" the unsaved will be killed at the 2nd coming, for some will be left alive (Matthew 24:39b-40), and they will enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). Also, the "vengeance" and "everlasting destruction" at the 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9) won't be the lake of fire for everyone killed, just as "the vengeance of eternal fire" which came on Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 1:7) wasn't the lake of fire for those killed. For only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20). The rest of the unsaved won't be cast into the lake of fire until after they have been physically resurrected and judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Between the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3) and the great white throne judgment will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

BABerean2 said in post 107:

How does Peter's description of Christ's return in 2nd Peter chapter 3 fit into your understanding of the millennium?

Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All of these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 124:

Christ is presently OVER ALL THINGS!

Amen (Matthew 28:18).

But he isn't yet exercising his power to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

 

[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter, it appears that much of what you believe is some sort of wishful thinking (for whatever reason). For example, you included:

“Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7) “And so all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26)​

That is quite the stretch to link those two verses. First, the theme of the prophecy was a phase of the carrying away of Judah into Babylon. And the verse you supplied, Jer 24:7, was simply the Lord promising them they would return. But, as you are aware, in many other places it is prophesied that the return was conditional: only a small remnant returned ("very small" in two verses).

But this is another part of that verse dispensationalist's tend to severely misinterpret:

"… they shall return to Me with their whole heart".​

Well, did they? Did they return to the Lord with their whole heart? The answer is a resounding, No! Nor did they ever!

Here you reveal the basic weakness of your entire system of interpretation. For even while you are insisting that the prophecy is about events that have already taken place, you admit that it has never been fulfilled.

God does not express "wistful speaking." He sometimes gives specific instructions which, even as He gives them, He knows we will not obey Him. At other times, He states future events with precision. And when He does this, the precision is absolute. An example of this is Daniel 11, from verse 2 to the middle of verse 35. This section speaks of events which began long after the prophecy was made, and continued over the course of numerous generations. But it is so precisely accurate that unbelievers insist that its very accuracy proves that it could not have been written before the prophesied events took place.

The prophecy given in Jeremiah 24:7 is not an instruction. It is a statement of a coming event that God has flatly said will take place. And you yourself admit that it has never taken place. So we have to conclude that one of three statements about Jeremiah 24:7. Either:

1. God never said these words.
2. God said something would happen and it will not ever happen.
or:
3. These words will be fulfilled in the future.

Choices 1 and 2 are simply not available to a godly Christian. Both of these choices completely discredit a person as a Christian teacher. So we are forced to conclude that these words apply to a time that is still in the future.

And it turns out that Jeremiah 24:7 is not the only place where God said that such a time would come. He actually said it in other places as well. One of these places is Zechariah 12:10-14, which expressly says that all the families that remain will repent with bitter weeping and when does it say they will do this? When "they will look on me whom they have pierced." That is, after He has returned, even as explicitly stated in Acts 1:11 and in Zechariah 14:4.

Likewise, nothing even remotely resembling Ezekiel 20:33-38 has ever happened. so we are again confronted with the same three choices that we were faced with concerning Jeremiah 24:7.

The words in question in that passage are:

33 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you.
34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face.
36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Ezekiel 20:33-38

These choices are not "dispensationalist nonsense." They are the only three choices available to a serious student of scripture. And the only godly one is the third choice.

 

[BABerean2]

BAB, re: your post, #143, Storm WAS onto something - which Mid-Acts solved for.long ago.

His problem was legitimate. His solution, not so - all he did was tradw one type of reasoning lacking in certain facts for reasoning lacking in others.

Had the Dispensational Hermeneutic not only been what it actually is as to that issue at that point in God's unfolding of His will, but consistently applied, well, now I speculating about another man's probable ending up at.

Anyway, the solution is, that at that point in God's unfolding of His will, the Millennial Kingdom transitions towards the dispensation of the fulness of times.

That in itself is an amazing study in itself.

But I'm Mid-Acts Dispensational and this results in a huge difference bewteen reasoning at passages until they fit and just simply being consistent in the actual hermeneutic that is Dispensationalism.

................................................................................
Brother Danoh,

I have finished Stam's book.

Things That Differ by C.R. Stam
http://www.pmiministries.com/Literature/Things_That_Differ.pdf

I now understand why you attacked my Bereanship. Stam was founder of the Berean Bible Society in Chicago. How dare I choose my username, and then speak against dispensationalism?

I am going to give my humble impression of the book. I am sure you will correct me if I go astray from the accepted doctrine.

I also understand why many of those promoting the doctrine on YouTube continued to use the phrase "our Apostle Paul".

The key to the doctrine seems to be the "mystery" revealed to Paul about the dispensation of Grace and the gentiles becoming part of God's plan.

It attempts to keep the descendants of Jacob separated from the gentile believers, from what I saw.

They key division is between prophecy and the mystery revealed to Paul.

He made an effort to separate Paul from the other 12 Apostles and made a contrast between Peter and Paul. This contrasts the plan for the descendants of Jacob as separate from the plan for the gentile believers. He also states that Peter learned the mystery of the dispensation of Grace from Paul.

The position also seems to say that water baptism is not for gentile believers today.

There seems to be some double-talk in my humble opinion in several areas.

He mentions that there is really only one Gospel and then goes on to explain the 4 Gospels.

He says the Great Commission of Matthew is not the same as the Great Commission for the gentile church and then explains the 3 Great Commissions. Part of this may be to avoid the admonition to baptize.

He talks about David being under the Law, but was a murderer, and then turns around and says that David was under God's Grace and was saved by Faith.

The book seems to emphasize the differences between the Jewish Christians and the gentile Christians. It seems as if he wants to keep them separate from the gentile Body.

The basic ideology of the the book continues to rest upon the basic doctrine of Dispensationalism. On page 34 he talks about the "...body of Christ, with it's heavenly calling and position..." which is the same idea promoted by Chafer at Dallas Theological.

One page 35 he also changes one word in Roman's chapter 11.
"5. All Israel will then be saved"
He has changed the word "so" which is an adverb of manner into "then" which is an adverb of time. This change comes from page 349 of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. Changing one little word completely changes the meaning of the verse.

The doctrine also rests upon the pretrib Catching Away of the Body, which came from the 1830 vision of teenager Margaret Macdonald.

I must say that it is a unique form of dispensational theology and seems to distance itself in some ways from Darby, Chafer, Larkin and others. However, in the end the core doctrine remains the same. It draws a distinction between the descendants of Jacob and the gentile believers. As a matter of fact it goes beyond that in an effort to even separate the Jewish Christians from the gentile Christians.

It was an interesting book and I appreciate you sharing it with me. I can say that I now have a better understanding of your position.

I also understand why you were upset with my choice of usernames. I know now I can never be a Berean to you.

Respectfully,

Yours in Christ

Not really a Berean

 

[Rev20]

Here you reveal the basic weakness of your entire system of interpretation. For even while you are insisting that the prophecy is about events that have already taken place, you admit that it has never been fulfilled.

God does not express "wistful speaking." He sometimes gives specific instructions which, even as He gives them, He knows we will not obey Him.

Thanks for not taking my quote out of context (out of the quotation marks.) How do you know God does not engage in "wishful" thinking? If not, why this?

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." -- 2Pet 3:9​

Please refrain from hairsplitting. It is difficult enough to follow you.
.

And when He does this, the precision is absolute. An example of this is Daniel 11, from verse 2 to the middle of verse 35. This section speaks of events which began long after the prophecy was made, and continued over the course of numerous generations. But it is so precisely accurate that unbelievers insist that its very accuracy proves that it could not have been written before the prophesied events took place.

No doubt that chapter is a great history lesson: if covers the arrival of Alexander the Great to the bitter end of Antiochus IV.
.

The prophecy given in Jeremiah 24:7 is not an instruction. It is a statement of a coming event that God has flatly said will take place. And you yourself admit that it has never taken place. So we have to conclude that one of three statements about Jeremiah 24:7. Either:

1. God never said these words.
2. God said something would happen and it will not ever happen. or:
3. These words will be fulfilled in the future.

The prophecy was fulfilled; and, as usual, you took it completely out of context with your "pick-and-choose-whatever-fits-my-doctrine" method of interpretation. You completely ignored the verses which follow which showed the destiny of those who disobeyed the Lord. This is your verse in context with the remainder of the chapter:

7 "And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers."

It doesn't look too good for those "Israelites" in verses 8-10. Did you leave those verses out intentionally?

That scenario in verses 7-10 is what has been the case from the beginning. All Israel is not ALL Israel, but only those who obeyed the Lord and kept his covenant. Keep in mind that an entire generation was left in the wilderness because of transgressions. Those in verse 7 appear to be the remnant that Christ called to be his elect, and they received the oracles of God and were the foundations of the Church.
.

Choices 1 and 2 are simply not available to a godly Christian. Both of these choices completely discredit a person as a Christian teacher. So we are forced to conclude that these words apply to a time that is still in the future.

You must have forgotten my Rule #1, which is, I don't play by your rules.
.

And it turns out that Jeremiah 24:7 is not the only place where God said that such a time would come. He actually said it in other places as well. One of these places is Zechariah 12:10-14, which expressly says that all the families that remain will repent with bitter weeping and when does it say they will do this? When "they will look on me whom they have pierced." That is, after He has returned, even as explicitly stated in Acts 1:11 and in Zechariah 14:4.

1. Zech 12:10 was fulfilled when Jesus was hanging on the cross, according to John 19:37.

2. Acts 1:11 does not say that Christ will return to earth; nor is there any other NC verse that states he will every step foot on the earth again, except to use it as his footstool.

3. Zech 14:4-5 is an allegory of Christ making a way for the Christians to flee Jerusalem (they were able to flee after the Roman armies temporarily departed the areas around Jerusalem). That occurred just before He returned with his (saints) angels (Mark 13:26-27.)
.

Likewise, nothing even remotely resembling Ezekiel 20:33-38 has ever happened. so we are again confronted with the same three choices that we were faced with concerning Jeremiah 24:7.

Ezekiel 20:33-38 is simply a prophecy of the gathering of the elect (away from the ungodly), but written in OT prophetic language intended to confuse the carnally-minded.

The last verse should have provided you a clue:

"Then said I, Ah Lord God! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?" -- Eze 20:49​

The words in question in that passage are:

33 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you.
34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face.
36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am
the LORD.
Ezekiel 20:33-38

These choices are not "dispensationalist nonsense." They are the only three choices available to a serious student of scripture. And the only godly one is the third choice.

Biblewriter, if that is your idea of "serious study of scripture," I recommend everyone get their education somewhere else.


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[Interplanner]

I don't think BW enjoys following how the NT uses the OT. He gets real complicated about it anyway. Rev20 may want to save his energy and time on that one.

 

[Biblewriter]

But this is another part of that verse dispensationalist's tend to severely misinterpret:

"… they shall return to Me with their whole heart".​

Well, did they? Did they return to the Lord with their whole heart? The answer is a resounding, No! Nor did they ever!

Originally Posted by Biblewriter

The prophecy given in Jeremiah 24:7 is not an instruction. It is a statement of a coming event that God has flatly said will take place. And you yourself admit that it has never taken place. So we have to conclude that one of three statements about Jeremiah 24:7. Either:

1. God never said these words.
2. God said something would happen and it will not ever happen. or:
3. These words will be fulfilled in the future.
​

The prophecy was fulfilled; and, as usual, you took it completely out of context with your "pick-and-choose-whatever-fits-my-doctrine" method of interpretation. You completely ignored the verses which follow which showed the destiny of those who disobeyed the Lord. This is your verse in context with the remainder of the chapter:

7 "And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers."

It doesn't look too good for those "Israelites" in verses 8-10. Did you leave those verses out intentionally?

In the first post you flatly said that a critical part the prophecy Had not been fulfilled. Then, when I pointed that out. You ignored the part that you had admitted had not been fulfilled, and then claimed that the prophecy had been fulfilled.

Then you went on to deny that the other prophecies I quoted actually meant what they plainly said.

I have demonstrated what I set out to demonstrate. That you simply will not bow to any scripture that says something you disagree with.

 

[Rev20]

The prophecy given in Jeremiah 24:7 is not an instruction. It is a statement of a coming event that God has flatly said will take place. And you yourself admit that it has never taken place.

Biblewriter, I believe you misunderstood me. Let me rephrase to put your mind at ease:

"I believe every jot and tittle of the entire book of Jeremiah has been fulfilled." -- Rev​

In the first post you flatly said that a critical part the prophecy Had not been fulfilled. Then, when I pointed that out. You ignored the part that you had admitted had not been fulfilled, and then claimed that the prophecy had been fulfilled.
Then you went on to deny that the other prophecies I quoted actually meant what they plainly said.
I have demonstrated what I set out to demonstrate. That you simply will not bow to any scripture that says something you disagree with.

It would be nice if you would take the time to show me what you are talking about. I can only guess, since you seem to take my words out of context with the frequency you take the prophecies out of context. This is what you posted:

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“Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7) “And so all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26)​

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This is my response:

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That is quite the stretch to link those two verses. First, the theme of the prophecy was a phase of the carrying away of Judah into Babylon. And the verse you supplied, Jer 24:7, was simply the Lord promising them they would return. But, as you are aware, in many other places it is prophesied that the return was conditional: only a small remnant returned ("very small" in two verses).

But this is another part of that verse dispensationalist's tend to severely misinterpret:

"… they shall return to Me with their whole heart".​

Well, did they? Did they return to the Lord with their whole heart? The answer is a resounding, No! Nor did they ever!

That verse simply demonstrates God's form of (how shall I say it?) "wishful thinking," which he has shown from even before there was an Israel:

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." -- Gen 17:9​

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Somehow, somewhere, you are saying that I said the prophecy was never fulfilled, which I never said. I think what you saying is, "Rev, if you don't believe the prophecy is fulfilled the way I believe it is to be fulfilled, then you don't believe it is fulfilled." Or, something like that.

This is getting too strange for me.


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