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Why Evolution is True (3)

Loudmouth

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I like to ask them to prove macro evolution which minimalistically is evolution between higher taxa than species (genus level transitions not just at the species level).

There is no such thing as a genus in nature.

there is evidence that the original definition of macro evolution was such. as well as doubts from the inventor of modern taxonomy the different animals could share a common ancestor which is equivalent to one evolving into another genra of animal.

Species within a genus share a common ancestor. A genus is nothing more than a human defined group of species. Whether or not two species belong to the same genus is largely an arbitrary decision made by humans.
 
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Loudmouth

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Explain the predecessors of homos sapiens and how we evolved (was it homos erectus that preceeded homos sapiens?).

We don't know if any fossil is our direct ancestor, as discussed before. We can dig up a modern human fossil and not know if that individual has descendants based on morphology alone. Only through genetics can we determine direct relatedness, and the hominid transitionals do not have any DNA (except for Homo neanderthalensis).

As for a list of the fossils, wiki has a decent page:

List of human evolution fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The major evolutionary trends are found in the skull and pelvis. Starting with the Australopithecines, you see a pelvis very much like ours, and unlike other apes. This is a great image for a comparison of the pelvis:

ardi-pelvic-comparison.jpg


On the far right you have a chimp pelvis. You will notice that the iliac blade is turned towards the back (i.e. dorsal). In humans (on the far left), the iliac blades are turned towards the side. The middle two pelvises are australopithecus and ardipithecus, both of which have iliac blades on the sides as is the case in humans. Auastralopithecines also have an inward angled femur, just like humans. These are all adaptations for bipedality. A short, squat pelvis with iliac blades on the side with inward angled femurs is what allows us to balanc our weight over our feet, and we find that very thing in hominid transitionals.

At the same time, the skull of australopithecines if very ape like. They have large brow ridges, a jaw that juts forward, a more narrow pallete, and a larger lower jaw. Here is a nice comparison of many transitional skulls, including a chimp skull at A for comparison.

hominids2.jpg


These are arranged in chronological order, and what you will see is a gradual increase in cranium size, a reduction of brow ridge size, and a reduction in the prognathus of the jaw (prognathus = jaw juts forward).

As to how humans evolve, that would be through evolutionary mechanisms which include random mutation, selection, and speciation.
 
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Loudmouth

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Heck, why not! The connection is invented anyhow.

I am just imagining the pelvis found in australopithecines? I am just imagining the brow ridges on H. erectus?

The trick is do you know the difference?!

We don't need to know the difference since sister taxa can still be used to inform us on the evolutionary transition.

So if you see what you think is a transitional, that is based on traits it shares with other animals. If an animal had a few extra traits than another, rather than be a separate animal creation, you insist it is all a progression.

If we see hominid transitionals become more and more human-like over time, isn't that what we should see if evolution is true?

That is a leap of faith.

It is a theory backed by evidence. No need for faith.

False! God has many traits! He is the Great Common Ancestor. He created animals with various different traits. That is why we see nested hierarchies. Even angels come in nested hierarchies! So do demons!

Cars are created with various different traits, and yet they don't fall into a nested hierarchy. Obviously, you don't understand what a nested hierarchy is.

God did not give all the same traits to all creatures. Nothing about some creatures missing some traits and having others says evolutiondunit!!! Not in any way at all.

Why isn't it evidence? If we see the exact hierarchy of characteristics that evolution would produce, why isn't that evidence?
 
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Loudmouth

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:thumbsup:

well,

they have no data to work with.

+ there would be hundreds of thousands of transitions, not just a couple (if macro evolution was valid).

Are we to assume that you searched the entire fossil record and counted all of the transitionals? You wouldn't make such a comment unless you did search the entire fossil record, would you? Afterall, that would be a bit dishonest, don't you think?
 
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Loudmouth

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I already did three times with the peer review of avian design.

And I showed you why their paper failed.

that too is an example of csi.but nothing I can post will change your mind. as you dont even try to read the peer reviews posted while simultaneously denying their existence. I just keep posting them hoping you will address the evidence and stop the dishonest dodging.

Where in that peer reviewed paper did they prove that CSI could not evolve?
 
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Loudmouth

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yes its all I have and its sufficient as long as you use inaccurate sources.

I haven't used inaccurate sources. Genetics alone proves common descent, and I have the peer reviewed papers to prove it.

Given the size of vertebrate genomes (>1 × 10^9 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14).
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences

We share over 200,000 ERV's with chimps at the same exact spot in both genomes while only differing by less 100 in the human genome. This is smoking gun proof that we share a common ancestor.
 
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Loudmouth

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same thing for you and your utilization of fallacy in the last few posts. it is also proper to adress the poster directly. not talk over them.

It is proper for you to address the evidence instead of rejecting a theory because you think it is icky.
 
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createdtoworship

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I haven't used inaccurate sources. Genetics alone proves common descent, and I have the peer reviewed papers to prove it.

Given the size of vertebrate genomes (>1 × 10^9 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14).
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences

We share over 200,000 ERV's with chimps at the same exact spot in both genomes while only differing by less 100 in the human genome. This is smoking gun proof that we share a common ancestor.

for one if common ancestry from a single ancestor was true, the sedimentary rock would be packed with transition fossils of organisms which bridge the gap between genra (macro evolution). Not just a few, but multiple hundreds of thousands. And how fossils do you now know of? I await your response.

“So even though all organisms share a common genetic code with varying degrees of closeness, that code has ordered the amino acids in proteins in such a way that the basic types are in molecular isolation from one another. There are no Darwinian transitions, only distinct molecular gaps. Darwinists cannot explain the presence of these molecular gaps by natural selection any more than they can explain the presence of huge gaps in the fossil record”

“Here’s where the problem arises for Darwinists. If all species share a common ancestor, we should expect to find protein sequences that are transitional from, say, fish to amphibian, or from reptile to mammal. But that’s not what we find at all. Instead, we find that the basic types are molecularly isolated from one another, which seems to preclude any type of ancestral relationship.”


secondly:

Genome projects supporting human/chimp common ancestry typically refuse to accept the differences in the gene sequencing:

“Let’s use an example from English to illustrate what we mean. Here are two sentences with exactly the same letters:
Charles Darwin was a scientific god.
Charles Darwin was a scientific dog.
While the letters in the two sentences are identical and the order is virtually the same (greater than 90 percent), the slight difference in order yields opposite meanings. In the same way, only a slight difference in the order of the letters (A, T, C, and G) in living things may yield creatures that are far apart on the hypothetical evolutionary tree. For example, while some studies show that the DNA similarity between humans and the most similar ape may be about 90 percent, other studies show the DNA similarity between humans and mice is also about 90 percent.”


- above quotes from: Norman Geisler, and Frank Turek, I don't have faith enough to be an athiest, 2004.

chimp%2Bdna%2Bsimiliarities.jpg


As you can see above, similarities in genetic structure typically can mean that the designer allowed us to consume food within a certain food chain structure and resultantly designed various organisms with similar genetic structure to digest food easier. It does not prove common ancestry any more that a “pot evolving from a teaspoon.

we are less similar to chimp *(given the study belows accuracy) than cats are to dogs (81.9% shared homologous genes)

so if you can prove that cats evolved from dogs using these methods than you can prove humans evolved from chimpanzees.

(see following table 1 for the cats genetic charts-)
Initial sequence and comparative analysis of the cat genome

Geneticist Richard Buggs

To compare the two [human and chimpanzee] genomes, the first thing we must do is to line up the parts of each genome that are similar. When we do this alignment, we discover that only 2400 million of the human genome's 3164.7 million 'letters' align with the chimpanzee genome - that is, 76% of the human genome. Some scientists have argued that the 24% of the human genome that does not line up with the chimpanzee genome is useless "junk DNA". However, it now seems that this DNA could contain over 600 protein-coding genes, and also code for functional RNA molecules.
Looking closely at the chimpanzee-like 76% of the human genome, we find that to make an exact alignment, we often have to introduce artificial gaps in either the human or the chimp genome. These gaps give another 3% difference. So now we have a 73% similarity between the two genomes.
In the neatly aligned sequences we now find another form of difference, where a single 'letter' is different between the human and chimp genomes. These provide another 1.23% difference between the two genomes. Thus, the percentage difference is now at around 72%.
We also find places where two pieces of human genome align with only one piece of chimp genome, or two pieces of chimp genome align with one piece of human genome. This "copy number variation" causes another 2.7% difference between the two species. Therefore the total similarity of the genomes could be below 70%.


from:

Chimpanzee? - Reformatorisch Dagblad


72% is alot different than say 96-99% similarity.

at this point all that need to be realized is that gene ordering is important, and it's the alignments that are way off.

here is a stack of references to that support this importance in ordering:

"Jachowicz et al., "Heterochromatin establishment at pericentromeres depends on nuclear position," Genes & Development, 27: 2427-2432 (2013); Verdaasdonk et al., "Centromere Tethering Confines Chromosome Domains," Molecular Cell, 52: 1-13 (December 26, 2013); Filion et al., "Systematic Protein Location Mapping Reveals Five Principal Chromatin Types in Drosophila Cells,"Cell, 143: 212-224 (October 15, 2010); Giacomo Cavalli, "From Linear Genes to Epigenetic Inheritance of Three-dimensional Epigenomes," Journal of Molecular Biology (2011); Justin M. O'Sullivan, "Chromosome Organizaton in Simple and Complex Unicellular Organisms," Current Issues in Molecular Biology, 13: 37-42 (2011); Dirar Homouz and Andrzej S. Kudlicki, "The 3D Organization of the Yeast Genome Correlates with Co-Expression and Reflects Functional Relations between Genes," PLoS One, 8: e54699 (January, 2013); Stephen A. Hoang and Stefan Bekiranov, "The Network Architecture of the Saccharomyces cerevisiae Genome," PLoS One, 8: e81972 (December, 2013)."

the above and dozens more references found
on evolutionnews.org
Does Genome Evidence Support Human-Ape Common Ancestry? - Evolution News & Views

Cats share 90% homologous genes with humans.

in fact cats share 81.9% homologous genes with dogs! (no kidding)


Governmental Genome project on Cats
Initial sequence and comparative analysis of the cat genome

does this mean we evolved from cats? OR cats from Dogs?

You see how genetic similarity can be misleading.

Do pigs share 98 per cent of human genes? › Ask an Expert (ABC Science)
you can see we obviously didn't evolve from Cats or pigs, and cats didn't obviously evolve from dogs.
 
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Loudmouth

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for one if common ancestry from a single ancestor was true, the sedimentary rock would be packed with transition fossils of organisms which bridge the gap between genra (macro evolution).

There are no genera in nature. How many times do I need to point this out.

The rest of your post I have already addressed, and you refuse to deal with it.
 
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createdtoworship

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There are no genera in nature. How many times do I need to point this out.

The rest of your post I have already addressed, and you refuse to deal with it.

I believe your post has been sufficiently rebuffed as well. (not to mention the fact that even species does not exist in nature, and is a arbitrary line made by taxonomists, which you refuse to acknowledge)
 
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createdtoworship

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It is proper for you to address the evidence instead of rejecting a theory because you think it is icky.

I have been asking for fossil evidence for years on these threads, and none has been given.
 
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Loudmouth

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I believe your post has been sufficiently rebuffed as well. (not to mention the fact that even species does not exist in nature, and is a arbitrary line made by taxonomists, which you refuse to acknowledge)

Species do exist in nature. There are populations that do not interbreed so that different mutations accumulate in the different populations.

Also, you have done nothing to rebuff my posts demonstrating the genetic differences between chimps and humans. I showed you the chimp genome paper, and you still refuse to accept it. You are still trying to claim that chimps are 30% different than humans. You are still trying to claim that cats are more closely related to humans than chimps are, even though I showed you that this was false.

You haven't rebuffed anything. You have only repeated the same creationist lies.
 
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Dizredux

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I think you'll find that Diz's interests lies in the area of defending Darwinism rather than disputing with the Godless who promote an atheistic creationist agenda.

No, my interests are combating creationists who deliberately lie to get people to accept their beliefs. A common term for this is "Lying for Christ"

I feel that this does far more damage to Christianity than Atheists ever could.

I also don't believe that turning off your brain is a prerequisite for being Christian nor is believing Genesis to be scientifically accurate.

Dizredux
 
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createdtoworship

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And I showed you why their paper failed.



Where in that peer reviewed paper did they prove that CSI could not evolve?

CSI by definition is impossible to arrive by chance chemistry or biological evolution. So if avian feathers have a high level of CSI the chances of biological evolution reduces proportionally.

"let me therefore try to spell out in plain English why natural causes are not up to the task of generating CSI. Using natural causes to explain CSI commits a category mistake. It is like using plumbing supplies to explain oil painting-the one is irrelevant to the other and to conflate the two only leads to confusion. The problem with using natural causes to explain CSI is essentially this. Natural causes are properly represented by nondeterministic functions (stochastic processes). Just what these are in precise mathematical terms is not important. The important thing is that functions map one set of items to another set of items and in doing so map a given item to one and only one other item. Thus for a natural cause to "generate" CSI would mean for a function to map some item to an item that exhibits CSI. But that means the complexity and specification in the item that got mapped onto gets pushed back to the item that got mapped. In other words, natural causes just push the CSI problem from the effect back to the cause, which now in turn needs to be explained. It is like explaining a pencil in terms of a pencilmaking machine. Explaining the pencil-making machine is as difficult as explaining the pencil. In fact, the problem typically gets worse as one backtracks CSI.
Stephen Meyer makes this point beautifully for DNA.36 Suppose some natural cause is able to account for the sequence specificity of DNA (i.e., the CSI in DNA). The four nucleotide bases are attached to a sugar-phosphate backbone and thus cannot influence each other via bonding affinities. In other words, there is complete freedom in the sequencing possibilities of the nucleotide bases. In fact, as Michael Polanyi observed in the 1960s, this must be the case if DNA is going to be optimally useful as an information bearing molecule.37 Indeed, any limitation on sequencing possibilities of the nucleotide bases would hamper its information carrying capacity. But that means that any natural cause that brings about CSI in DNA must admit at least as much freedom as is in the DNA sequencing possibilities (if not, DNA sequencing possibilities would be constrained by physico-chemical laws, which we know they are not). Consequently, any CSI in DNA tracks back via natural causes to CSI in the antecedent circumstances responsible for the sequencing of DNA. To claim that natural causes have "generated" CSI is therefore totally misleading-natural causes have merely shuffled around preexisting CSI."

"Why can this not happen by chance? According to the complexity-specification criterion of chapter 1, once the improbabilities (i.e., complexities) become too vast and the specifications too tight, chance is eliminated and design is implicated. Just where the probabilistic cutoff is can be debated, but that there is a probabilistic cutoff beyond which chance becomes an unacceptable explanation is clear. The universe will experience heat death before random typing at a keyboard produces a Shakespearean sonnet. The French mathematician Emile Borel proposed 1 in 1050 as a universal probability bound below which chance could definitely be precluded-that is, any specified event as improbable as this could not be attributed to chance.42 Borel based his universal probability bound on cosmological considerations, looking to the opportunities for repeating and observing events throughout cosmic history. Borel's 1 in 1050 probability bound translates to 166 bits of information.
In sections 1.5 and 2.8 I justify a more stringent universal probability bound of 1 in 10150 based on the number of elementary particles in the observable universe, the duration of the observable universe until heat death or collapse, and the Planck time.43 A probability bound of 1 in 10150 translates to 500 bits of information. Accordingly, specified information of complexity greater than 500 bits cannot reasonably be attributed to chance. This 500-bit ceiling on the amount of specified information attributable to chance constitutes a universal complexity bound for CSI. If we now define CSI as any specified information whose complexity exceeds 500 bits of information, it follows immediately that chance cannot generate CSI. Throughout the sequel we take the "C" in "CSI" to denote at least 500 bits of information."


so 500 bits of SI = CSI according to dembski a mathematician.

Above quote from William Dembski, No Free Lunch, 2001
 
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